All just excuesses. I saw many roundhouse kicks score. Last I checked TKD was more than just a roundhouse kick. Everyone that lost in all the matches that I saw really lost. Before LaJust or any EPP system I say many so call good fighter get the benifit of kicking arms quite a bit and it be called a score. No those same people cry becasue they can't kick arms or air and score anymore. I have been in many matches where I lost because of arm kicks.
World Championships USA
- Thread starter terryl965
- Start date
Maybe when your students or competitors continuously land hard roundhouse kicks to the lajust hogu that don't score while your opponents scores with cut kicks and or this funky scraping the bottom of the foot on the lajust hogu kick off a cut chamber, at a team trial or wtf international event, and they lose, you will feel differently.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #23
Sir it did at the US Open but I blame myself for not being properly trained in what works and what does not with the equipment. Not saying I like them what I am saying is it is unfair to everybody.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #25
I guess it would be Lajustdo, but as a coach and instructor it is my job to fully understand how the equipmwnt will change the game. I still do not like them but we are kinda of stuck with it for now.
StudentCarl
3rd Black Belt
I think that perception issue may be key in deciding the fate of Taekwondo sparring as an Olympic sport. At what point does electronic scoring adaptation no longer represent the core of Taekwondo and/or of Olympic sport as a contest of athletic skill (vs. gaming the gear) and become Bizarre-Do? In any long-established sport, the rule set and equipment step into the background and show off the skill and athleticism of the athletes as the decider of victory. If we can't solve that puzzle, the game will end. Wii Bowling can be fun, but it's not real bowling. Let's not become a Wii game.
taekwondodo
Green Belt
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- Jan 26, 2009
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Using Lajust Hogu has brougth the way of fighting to a new level. Its about techniques more than brute force when kicking.
Old ways:
45 round kick will score. The edge of the foot landed will score. The edge of the foot + big sounds will score. Judges not looking at the kicker, but see the motion, hear the sound=push button. SCORE!
Lajust forces fighters to retrained their body. This is how I belief LaJust Hogu works:
Point=force+contact surface area+compression
1. Force: came from the kicker
2. Contact area: How much square inch of the metal mesh fabrics did the force distributed and applied
3. Compression: the opponent coming in or amount of substance re-inforced the hogu. (That is why the USAT ref check how tight the Hogu tied. They did the loose fit test)
Fighters now have to train to pivot, rotate their hip, and bring the knees over the center line to have maximum surface area of the top of the foot to score point. (does this remind you of the POOMSAE technique????)
Power alone will not be sufficient to register a scoring point. The power level on each division set to certain range to register. If the fighter have enough power but do not have enough compression AND surface area then they will not score.
That is why the old fighting ways will not work, ie.. 45 degree kicks. Now if a fighter can deliver a 45 round kick with enough surface are contact+ sufficient force..then he/she will be able to score.
Back kick:
Same thing, but harder because the scoring surface area is in the heel, but smaller. So the fighters still have to have: surface area+force+ compression = Point.
Again, back kick: doesn't this remind you of how we teach our kids to do the proper techniques on doing POOMSAE????
So nothing new except the WTF demanded Lajust to design it in a way that proper techniques being brought back in fighting.
I can't score squat with Lajust. If I am lucky, I will have 1 point in body kick. Majority of my points derived from punches and head kicks. Maybe a back kick because my back kick is good and traditional.
Old ways:
45 round kick will score. The edge of the foot landed will score. The edge of the foot + big sounds will score. Judges not looking at the kicker, but see the motion, hear the sound=push button. SCORE!
Lajust forces fighters to retrained their body. This is how I belief LaJust Hogu works:
Point=force+contact surface area+compression
1. Force: came from the kicker
2. Contact area: How much square inch of the metal mesh fabrics did the force distributed and applied
3. Compression: the opponent coming in or amount of substance re-inforced the hogu. (That is why the USAT ref check how tight the Hogu tied. They did the loose fit test)
Fighters now have to train to pivot, rotate their hip, and bring the knees over the center line to have maximum surface area of the top of the foot to score point. (does this remind you of the POOMSAE technique????)
Power alone will not be sufficient to register a scoring point. The power level on each division set to certain range to register. If the fighter have enough power but do not have enough compression AND surface area then they will not score.
That is why the old fighting ways will not work, ie.. 45 degree kicks. Now if a fighter can deliver a 45 round kick with enough surface are contact+ sufficient force..then he/she will be able to score.
Back kick:
Same thing, but harder because the scoring surface area is in the heel, but smaller. So the fighters still have to have: surface area+force+ compression = Point.
Again, back kick: doesn't this remind you of how we teach our kids to do the proper techniques on doing POOMSAE????
So nothing new except the WTF demanded Lajust to design it in a way that proper techniques being brought back in fighting.
I can't score squat with Lajust. If I am lucky, I will have 1 point in body kick. Majority of my points derived from punches and head kicks. Maybe a back kick because my back kick is good and traditional.
Here are the problems that I have;
Jean Lopez "paid National Olympic coach" leaving training 2 days early to show up at AAU Nationals. Why?
Juan Morean "paid National Coach" training and having a student that competed for Hati.
Rudford Hamon - AAC rep for the USAT fights for Hati
Laurin Cahoon - Student of Juan's, aac rep, and married to another AAC Rep that fights for Hati.
Luke Ford- Student of Juan's ends up fighting another student of Juan's that is fighting for Hati!
Juan Moreno -Decided not to coach the fight between 2 students even though one fights for USA and the other Hati! This is after Luke Ford beats out Aaron Cook! Where was Juan's loyalty?
Christina Bailey is at worlds as a Asst National Coach, but can not coach her student! Why?
Eric Laurin is there at worlds he is on the Board of Director as the USOC athlete Rep and also chair of the AAC for the USAT he is coaching for 2 students that were fighting for Panama!
The team got what I am told, a major lecture and butt chewing! They were told how disapointed the coaches were and that they had the best coaches in the world! They put all the blame on the athletes! It was them 100%!
Was it Luke Ford's fault that Juan decided to not coach him against Rudford?
Was it Aziza's fault when she could not have her own coach her?
What was Mark's problem? His fault and not his Brothers???
Just by the actions of Eric Laurin a USOC Athlete rep coaching 2 students of a former Board member that are fighting for Panama shows that something is wrong with this sport! There also has to be something said for so many Americans fighting for other countries.
Jean Lopez "paid National Olympic coach" leaving training 2 days early to show up at AAU Nationals. Why?
Juan Morean "paid National Coach" training and having a student that competed for Hati.
Rudford Hamon - AAC rep for the USAT fights for Hati
Laurin Cahoon - Student of Juan's, aac rep, and married to another AAC Rep that fights for Hati.
Luke Ford- Student of Juan's ends up fighting another student of Juan's that is fighting for Hati!
Juan Moreno -Decided not to coach the fight between 2 students even though one fights for USA and the other Hati! This is after Luke Ford beats out Aaron Cook! Where was Juan's loyalty?
Christina Bailey is at worlds as a Asst National Coach, but can not coach her student! Why?
Eric Laurin is there at worlds he is on the Board of Director as the USOC athlete Rep and also chair of the AAC for the USAT he is coaching for 2 students that were fighting for Panama!
The team got what I am told, a major lecture and butt chewing! They were told how disapointed the coaches were and that they had the best coaches in the world! They put all the blame on the athletes! It was them 100%!
Was it Luke Ford's fault that Juan decided to not coach him against Rudford?
Was it Aziza's fault when she could not have her own coach her?
What was Mark's problem? His fault and not his Brothers???
Just by the actions of Eric Laurin a USOC Athlete rep coaching 2 students of a former Board member that are fighting for Panama shows that something is wrong with this sport! There also has to be something said for so many Americans fighting for other countries.
Juan should of been in Luke's chair!!! There's no excuse for that. Jean could of coached Luke. I don't have an issue with Jean leaving early if approved or Mark's performance (1 Gold, 1 Silver, 2 Bronze medals and now 1 Quarterfinal is damn impressive!!!). I do have an issue with Rufus being an AAC Rep and now competing for Haiti. He should resign even if there's no rules covering this. Lauren being married to Rufus shouldn't even be a topic for discussion. If Eric went to Worlds on his own dime to coach 2 of his athletes from Panama, I'm cool with that. Juan is the owner and head coach for Peak, and Christina Bayley is under Peak with Aziza so Juan knows her well. If an athlete has dual citizenship, follows IOC & WTF rules, and feels that they have a better shot competing for another country, that's their choice.
Who is making excuses, the KTA? The multi time finweight world champion?
Did you also see many that did not score? How about at USAT national events when they are testing the gear and people are getting folded over during the tests and still no score from LaJust?
Name me one champion that doesn't or didn't score the majority of their points by roundhouse kick to the body.
How can you say that? You don't know how the match would have gone if a score that should have gone up did in fact went up and now the person who was winning is now losing. Or are you of the opinion that match tactics don't change whether one is winning or losing?
Now we get to the crux of your position, which is that you feel you lost matches because of points getting scored on your arm, and therefore you think that it is ok to radically change the game with LaJust, so your pet peeve is taken care of. This is not unlike what happened to the USTU, wherein people who lost a state president election felt it was ok to tear the whole system down and put USAT in place. No more state president elections with USAT, so that problem is solved, right?
There are several reasons and several solutions for your arm score issue that are within your control and does not involve changing Taekwondo competition to a push kick pot kick game. One thing might be to check out some different arm pads. Some arm pads may look cool, especially if you wear them on the outside of your dobok sleeves, but make a very loud sound if you kick them. I would rather have a less pretty forearm guard that deadens the sound. You might also wish to block out farther from your body, so that the judges can clearly see that the kick landed on the arm, rather than the hogu.
I wrote a post about this back after the conclusion of Nationals and Team Trials, wherein it was the opinion of many that our best athletes were not selected for team or even allowed to fight at team trials because they lost at Nationals, due to LaJust issues. Our best athletes were not selected for team, so why is it a big surprise that we didn't win medals at worlds?
The difference between your position and mine is that you are voicing the position of those who are not in control or power, wherein your only choice is to, as you say "either adapt and progress or complain and be left behind." I am voicing the position of those who are in a position to change things. To them, LaJust does not work, and they are taking steps to remove LaJust from the equation, hopefully before it's too late.
You stance is to myopic.
Just because someone use to win when it was a certian way, does not indicate that the new way is worse or better, it is just different.
Take tennis for example: You have some players that are great on clay but suck and grass. Just as you have some that are great on the hard court vs. clay or grass. Then you have those elite that are great on all surfaces (very few, 1 or 2 only).
Just because something is not to your liking does not make it bad, it makes it only different.
You say that the multi year winner lost and blamed LuJust, as did the KTA. Well they point fingers because they lost and did not or were unwilling to change. Change is hard and no one likes it, but those that accecpt it and move on grow and get better.
You talked about people getting doubled over during the testing to the system and not getting it to score. There can be many factors for that. The system can be set for at different levels. Maybe it was on a high level and some smaller or lighter people were testing it. Just because a Fin doubles over another fin dose not mean that the system should score if set for heavy weights. Maybe they were not using the sensor part of the sock and were hitting closer to the shin. Many times we see this and thing man that should ahve scored, but after a closer look the instep never made impact only the ankle did right before the shin. I know a lot of people that kick with that part because they don't have hardend insteps and it hurts too much to hit a hard hogu with the instep.
You can either fight the change and cry because what you can only do won't work. Or you man up and adapt and become better. Keep what you use to do and add to it. From what I saw at the WC I did not see anyone really be negated becasue of the system.
If all you have is one kick and that aint working then you should lose. Again, TKD is more than just roundhouse kicks. And it is surely more than just round house kicks to the body only. Yeah I guess I would complain to if the only thing that I could do (and poorly at that, 45 degree kicks) was taken away, I just got exposed.
Change and adapt, it is the way of life not just sport TKD.
Change what? They don't want to change anything. They simply want to keep things as it suits them. Put it back is what you should have said. "They", don't want change. Too funny.
Hey I can't score on that system so it suck. But then someone else says I have no problems. So what do we do? In ten years it won't matter because all the ones that would not change will be gone. We will only have those that only know what is used at that time. Then something new will come along and those that only knew the LaJust system will be in your shoes.
Funny how things progress. That man in the model T ford that only did 20 miles an hours and made all sorts of noise looked stupid and funny back then too. No a man riding a horse on the freeway looks stupid.
First of all let's set some basic facts down. 1) Lajust doesn't work, certainly not all the time. No one argues that point. Or do you? 2) When Lajust isn't working, it isn't scoring points that should go up, and other weaker points that shouldn't score does go up. No one argues this point. Or do you?
that might make sense if we are discussing whether puzzle mats should be used vs. a basketball hard court like in the old days. Different surfaces. But if you wanted to analogize Taekwondo Lajust to Tennis it would be strings that broke erratically during a match. Someone comes out and says, those strings don't work, and you argue, those strings don't work for everyone, therefore adapt or complain and get left behind.
The fact that I or anyone else "doesn't like it" doesn't make it bad, the fact that it doesn't work makes it bad.
It was reported in the news. I want to say it was posted here. The KTA tried it and again, it didn't work. That is the issue, not whether someone likes it or not or whether they should change. Sometimes you have to go back in order to go forward. People rejected new Coke. You would have us say take it or complain and get left behind. We don't have to accept LaJust, anymore than we have to accept new Coke.
Or maybe Lajust simply does not work.
The rules don't state that you have to score using the instep. The rules state that you can score with any part of the foot below the ankle bone. However, LaJust does not comply with that rule. You say we should just adapt. Does that include amending the WTF Competition Rules to accommodate LaJust? Or should Lajust accommodate the WTF rules?
I can understand how that would be the approach of someone without the ability to have the rules changed. Another approach could be to recognize that the system does not work, and therefore we need to find something else, perhaps a different system, or perhaps a return to what we had before.
You didn't really answer my question, which was to name one champion that didn't score the majority of their points with roundhouse kick to the body. Instead you chose to criticize all past, present and future champions who have that roundhouse kick. I guess that is your choice.
I'm all for changing and adapting, in fact I am generally at the front of the line on that concept. But what I am not for is accepting a flawed electronic system that does not work and put Taekwondo's future in the Olympic Games on that flawed system. We certainly don't need to do that, anymore than people have to accept, adapt and change to USAT's nonsensical crap.
Like I said before, sometimes you have to go backward to go forwards. USAT attempted their "new" model of governance, which like LaJust, does not work. Now people want to go back to what we had at USTU. Do you think that's "too funny" as well? Should we all just suck it up and accept whatever comes down the pike from USAT?
Actually it's "Hey, the system doesn't work so it sucks." But you maybe right on one point, the way things are going for Taekwondo, the only people who might be doing Taekwondo competition in the future are those who like Lajust, which are not many.
Actually the guys on the horse and model T look pretty smart compared to the guy in the time traveling deloren that doesn't work. But it is not even that, it is the comparison with the guy in the 2010 model cars driving on the freeway in comparison to the guy in the time traveling deloren that doesn't work.
You remind me of Jay Ferguson, who was supporting the "new" USAT, telling us change is good, etc. I used to debate with him too, telling him that USAT will not and does not work, for all the reasons people talk about now. I wonder where Jay is now....
I can understand the concept of adapting to LaJust, at least on the short term, especially if you have Olympic caliber athletes under your charge. But for the rest of the Taekwondo competing community, LaJust is just another reason in favor of not participating in kyorugi tournaments -- it's expensive (you have to rent it now that it is clear few want to buy it) and the stuff doesn't work.
Sorry Terry but its not about electronic scoring or USAT or USTU its about the watering down of what was a good full contact fighting system to a watered down Olympic Commercialized Mc Do Jo shadow of its former self.
At the base we need only good center referees with enough respect and experience that their word is final and good corner judges.
Who cares what the equipment says if one oponent cannot continue or is assleep???
We lost that since the 70's The only way to save TKD Olympics is to now allow the professional fighters from MMA in just like they did in Basket Ball but make them fight in our Olympic rules. My opinion of other countries faring better is they are more hungry to fight more basic hard contact and screw all the round kick scoring get back to hard penetrating techinique strait in knocking down and if the center ref cannot score that over what the machines are saying he should not be in the ring!!!!!!!!
Trust me they will not drop thier hands and we will have no doubt who lost and who won? I found an old Lopez vhs tape to show to class last week for Olympic team trials and all hands down so boring I am falling assleep and even low rank people are looking at it compared to what is going on now days it just sucks.
TKD will survive long after the Olympics but based on good masters teaching the whole art serving the community not worshiping the God of Commercialization raping 90% of practitioners to support the 2% of actual participants in Olympics it was a lie 30 years ago and still is. We need to stop this blind techniques and falling down scoring. Manny Paquiou would just clean most of our guys clocks not dropping his hands and working the body. One of Mas Oyamas main reasons for refusing to join the Original TKD Olympic org was he did not believe in the TKD sport fighting premis over good quality hard strait in techinique.
US and Korea not winning any medals is no different then when we hosted the Nationals in 1990 and the OTC members trained at our club they had all these new yells and fancy technque we had not seen and at the end of the tournament the Korean Masters and GM stood the OTC team up in the bleachers I was there and they said ok how many 1st place (none) how many 2nd place (none) How many 3rd place (none) they threw thier hands up in discust and walked away.
Its not about flash its meat and potatoes. I sent a 13 year old Eskimo girl to the OTC in the 90's and she knocked any one out of the ring up to 70lbs heavier they all wanted to know who is she who trained her if we had been rich she could have been famous in TKD but no matter she and her brother are both nationally and internationally famous and world record holders in other areas I am thankful I never allowed her to train further with all the abuse issues?
TKD has so much more to offer beyond sport TKD always has NGB dying and the Olympics could be the best thing to happen because it will force a change to focus on other things like Hanmadang, cultural tournaments, cultural exchange, behavior health and academic achievment far more important.
Masters have failed to make the real reason important for going to tournament its cultural exchange, doing your best for its own sake, learning and personal development not taking 1st 2nd 3rd place Even Koreans or looking to alternatives beyond Olympic sparring and recently a home grown Korean smoked an MMA oponent using a flip choke submission no one had ever seen before so it will be interesting to see if more of them will cross over out of sheer boredom?
At the base we need only good center referees with enough respect and experience that their word is final and good corner judges.
Who cares what the equipment says if one oponent cannot continue or is assleep???
We lost that since the 70's The only way to save TKD Olympics is to now allow the professional fighters from MMA in just like they did in Basket Ball but make them fight in our Olympic rules. My opinion of other countries faring better is they are more hungry to fight more basic hard contact and screw all the round kick scoring get back to hard penetrating techinique strait in knocking down and if the center ref cannot score that over what the machines are saying he should not be in the ring!!!!!!!!
Trust me they will not drop thier hands and we will have no doubt who lost and who won? I found an old Lopez vhs tape to show to class last week for Olympic team trials and all hands down so boring I am falling assleep and even low rank people are looking at it compared to what is going on now days it just sucks.
TKD will survive long after the Olympics but based on good masters teaching the whole art serving the community not worshiping the God of Commercialization raping 90% of practitioners to support the 2% of actual participants in Olympics it was a lie 30 years ago and still is. We need to stop this blind techniques and falling down scoring. Manny Paquiou would just clean most of our guys clocks not dropping his hands and working the body. One of Mas Oyamas main reasons for refusing to join the Original TKD Olympic org was he did not believe in the TKD sport fighting premis over good quality hard strait in techinique.
US and Korea not winning any medals is no different then when we hosted the Nationals in 1990 and the OTC members trained at our club they had all these new yells and fancy technque we had not seen and at the end of the tournament the Korean Masters and GM stood the OTC team up in the bleachers I was there and they said ok how many 1st place (none) how many 2nd place (none) How many 3rd place (none) they threw thier hands up in discust and walked away.
Its not about flash its meat and potatoes. I sent a 13 year old Eskimo girl to the OTC in the 90's and she knocked any one out of the ring up to 70lbs heavier they all wanted to know who is she who trained her if we had been rich she could have been famous in TKD but no matter she and her brother are both nationally and internationally famous and world record holders in other areas I am thankful I never allowed her to train further with all the abuse issues?
TKD has so much more to offer beyond sport TKD always has NGB dying and the Olympics could be the best thing to happen because it will force a change to focus on other things like Hanmadang, cultural tournaments, cultural exchange, behavior health and academic achievment far more important.
Masters have failed to make the real reason important for going to tournament its cultural exchange, doing your best for its own sake, learning and personal development not taking 1st 2nd 3rd place Even Koreans or looking to alternatives beyond Olympic sparring and recently a home grown Korean smoked an MMA oponent using a flip choke submission no one had ever seen before so it will be interesting to see if more of them will cross over out of sheer boredom?
Archtkd
3rd Black Belt
Funny how things go around. I wonder how much this thread woiul light up if USAT national coaches where Korean-America and doing the things claimed. Wasn't this loyalty issue used during the destruction of the USTU?
Actually if you are talking about Portland Nationals, hosted by GM Tae Hong CHOI, it was 1991, not 1990. I was there too. OTC did win that year at Nationals, Juan Moreno, Scott Fujii and May Pejo won gold for example. As for new yells and fancy technique, I don't know what you are talking about because they pretty much stuck to the basics (roundhouse kick to the body), but they did use a lot of steps, which was pretty new for a lot of people back then.
http://assets.usoc.org/assets/docum...e/20710/1991_Sr__Nat_l_black_belt_results.pdf
For one thing, I can tell you that neither President Sang Lee nor any of the other OTC coaches trained or coached people from other countries. But I was just talking about this with a senior today about the fact that if the US National Team came back from World Championships with zero medals during President Lee's term of office, there would be a hundred letters of complaint to the USOC by now, no matter what the actual reasons. Another senior predicted that Mr. Askinas would be out of USAT by the end of the year.
