Women Self Defence!

[Steve]

Smart move, Steve. I'm following your lead!

Just a point where it becomes a merry go round. I tend to stay on longer than I should.

 

[jobo]

Just beign purely factual here. i havent read the rest of this dicussiong but:

Statory rape and rape are diffrent crimes. Rape is without consent, statory rape is where the person is not of age to consent. I would go as far to say, if somone not of age to consent consents, thats generally looked on more favourable than straight out rape. Witholding the arguing about when you can cosnent and to whome etc. Just using those paramters.

And as far as i know, males get thw short end of the stick for this one, if both parties are under aged.

Also, in some countries and legalities rape charges are dropped if the person agrees to marry you within a certain time bracket. (just thought it was a intresting tid bit, not looked into what countries have this law)

(no idea if its of relivence, or if its supportive or not supportive of what has been written)

Addendum: Skimmed up a little. The previously mentioned issue would be (if criminal, and serious) harrassment. If it gets into harassment territory anyone should know to contact police. Now there is a line between annoyance and not a police issue and harassment and thus a police issue. (police to mean legal action in general) Harrassment is only harassment, no other crime. (it can accompiny other crimes though)

ithink the definitions are different in the states, in the uk statutory rape is where the girl is 12 or under, this is a relatively new law, before this that consent had been given was a mitigating factor, 13 to 15 its an offence just not a particularly serious one one if the age of the participent its quite close, so 14 to 18 its highly unlikely the law would want to get involved, 14 /28 perhaps so

 

[jobo]

Quick comments on this. First, if a person is not old enough to consent, she (or he) cannot by definition consent. The idea of a person "not of age to consent" consenting... it just gives me a headache to consider it, the logic is so flawed.

Second, laws such as if the child should marry the guy, it's cool... that reinforces the salient point here which is that consent is a concept that heavily influence by societal norms, and is very much a concept that is taught to kids, not instinctively understood.

see my above out line on uk law

where non consenting consent is a thing

 

[jobo]

ithink the definitions are different in the states, in the uk statutory rape is where the girl is 12 or under, this is a relatively new law, before this that consent had been given was a mitigating factor, 13 to 15 its an offence just not a particularly serious one one if the age of the participent its quite close, so 14 to 18 its highly unlikely the law would want to get involved, 14 /28 perhaps so

the history of the ago consent in the uk is murky, up to the late 1800s the age of consent was 10, then following a scandal where an MP bought himself a 10 year old girl, with pure motives, it was bumped to 13, which was also problematic as girls hit puberty a lot later due to poor diet and no birth certificates no one knew how old anyone actually was, so they bumped it to 16 where they should at least look a bit grown up,, unless you got married then it was 14

my grandma married her 18 yo boy friend at 14, they managed to live happily for half a century

 

[Urban Trekker]

I just remembered that I wanted to respond to these:

Don't tell your sons that girls play hard to get

So, here's the thing about this: when I was single, I was only going to take rejection from any particular woman only once. That's it. Apparently, that wasn't the norm when I was doing it.

Now, this has become the norm. And I've seen women all over social media who aren't happy about it.

Not really my concern, and I'll make sure that my son will also be of the mind that it's not his concern. The whole "persistence" thing is just not worth the risk.

don't tell them women like it rough

Oh, I will tell my son that some women like it rough and others don't. Because that's the truth.

 

[jobo]

I just remembered that I wanted to respond to these:


So, here's the thing about this: when I was single, I was only going to take rejection from any particular woman only once. That's it. Apparently, that wasn't the norm when I was doing it.

Now, this has become the norm. And I've seen women all over social media who aren't happy about it.

Not really my concern, and I'll make sure that my son will also be of the mind that it's not his concern. The whole "persistence" thing is just not worth the risk.


Oh, I will tell my son that some women like it rough and others don't. Because that's the truth.

we have people who are to old to care, telling others how sexual politics should work, adults can work it out for themselves i predict the extinction of our species

 

[drop bear]

Well yes and no, on here, a non academic site, I write as I'd talk in the pub or at a dinner party, conversationally.

If I were to make a statement of fact I'd back it up with citations, however in my two not disparate careers as well as my martial arts 'journey' I've met a great many sons of single mothers, not unusual when one is nearly in one's seventies and I've not found any lack of respect for my gender based on the fact they were brought up by a single woman, for other reasons yes. Most admired their mothers for doing a very hard job well.

When one writes something on here and someone tells you 'no you didn't mean that and you are wrong' it's laughable. Yes, I could be wrong but yes I did mean exactly what I said. It's paternalism to tell someone they didn't write what they meant. To tell me no one catcalls girls and women these days is pure nonsense of course.


Women's self defence is one of those areas where many well meaning men tell women what they want and need. Women know how they are treated in public and in the workplace, yet so many ignore that so many small incidences wear you down, that the lack of thought and respect plus an upbringing which allows this is an entitlement that needs to be stopped.


I recently read an article written in the UK by a young black solicitor about the small bits of racism she faced everyday, from being thought the defendant or a cleaner when she entered a court building to ignorant comments about her hair or skin. I had no idea, it was an eye opener and caused me much thought and something I'm taking to heart. I had no idea because I am not a young black woman experiencing her life, the same is true of men when it comes to the embarrassments women face everyday which seem trivial but really aren't. Women's self defence is based around defending yourself against a stranger who is trying to rape, it doesn't take into account the gropes, the pinches the pats, that women are told are just boys being boys, or the boss who corners them, the friendly guy just giving you a lift home but wants a kiss and grope as payment or the gang of young students who think touching up a girl is acceptable.

Anyway, I have to stop and have breakfast, then out for walk with Enzo (see profile pic 😀) thank you for trying to explain I do appreciate it.

Why would similar gender make someone an expert in self defense?

I would assume it would have more to do with qualifications or expertise.

And the same the other way. I assume women are more than capable at teaching men to defend themselves as well.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

The first is that there is no crime called statory rape. The crime is statutory rape. And it is considered a variation of rape, not something different (in most jurisdictions that I'm aware of)

And it is still without consent, as the official reason (in most jurisdictions that I'm aware of) is that the person is legally incapable of consenting, due to either age or mental/physical handicap. Which means that they still did not consent.

Regarding males getting the short end of the stick here, you can make that argument based on stats, but legally (again in most jurisdictions that I'm aware of), the law is phrased either (regarding age, not mental/physical handicap/other reasons): you cannot have sex with someone under x-age, in which case both people can theoretically be charged. ie: in California, if I'm 17 and my girlfriend is 17 and we have sex, we can both be charged. Or, it's if one person is above the age of consent. ie: in texas, it's legal so long as both people are above the age of 14, and within 3 years of age. If they're not then it's illegal, with one being the perpetrator and one being the victim. So if I was 19 and had sex with my 15 year old girlfriend, that's rape. If I'm 16 and had sex with my 16 year old girlfriend, then it's not.

In both of the above scenarios, you'll notice that from a legal standpoint male/female had nothing to do with it.

As far as i know morally speaking and for scalibility in charging for a court etc, it shouldnt be considered the same as rape. As the person gave consent, the ability to consent is just in dispute, as opposed to no affirmative consent. I honestly dont view the two as same, but thats my look on it.


As far as i know, it only applied to age. Persons who did it to somone who couldnt give consent or didnt on diffrent grounds would be charged with full on rape.

That could be dated, i know males tend to get the short end of the stick for crime(especially in this area, and especially again in this day and age), but im not going to get into that for politics grounds. (to bring it up for dispute would get quite political)

Also, do you notice how within this I used the phrase in most jurisdictions that I'm aware of? That's important, and something you continuously do not mention when you give people legal advice on here about rape, or self defense, or weapons, or basically anything else. You seem to go by memory, and state what you are stating as fact, which is never how legal issues work, and is a very dangerous thing to do when people may read what you are writing as something to be taken seriously/legitimately.

I dont think i gave legal advise in this instance, and it tends to nomimally be based off memory (i dont exactly memorise the numerical code assianged to some laws). If i do give a proper quote or some semblance of advise i tend to drudge up a law, or write it near equally to find the actual law yourself. Also for note, the crime in question doesnt exist here as far as i am aware, there is no statory rape in english law.

Addendum: i would also question why you would take legal advise in this isntance off the internet or shoddy uncited law from a international community that may or may not apply to you.

 

[Hanzou]

So, does anyone have any constructive recommendations for high school and college aged women defending themselves

Bjj. Learning how to choke, how to escape chokes, and dealing with a strength/weight disadvantage in grappling range is essential for female self defense. I would pair that training with a standard SD course.

 

[jobo]

I have to comment on this, because once again while giving legal advice you're wrong on multiple accounts here.

The first is that there is no crime called statory rape. The crime is statutory rape. And it is considered a variation of rape, not something different (in most jurisdictions that I'm aware of)

And it is still without consent, as the official reason (in most jurisdictions that I'm aware of) is that the person is legally incapable of consenting, due to either age or mental/physical handicap. Which means that they still did not consent.

Regarding males getting the short end of the stick here, you can make that argument based on stats, but legally (again in most jurisdictions that I'm aware of), the law is phrased either (regarding age, not mental/physical handicap/other reasons): you cannot have sex with someone under x-age, in which case both people can theoretically be charged. ie: in California, if I'm 17 and my girlfriend is 17 and we have sex, we can both be charged. Or, it's if one person is above the age of consent. ie: in texas, it's legal so long as both people are above the age of 14, and within 3 years of age. If they're not then it's illegal, with one being the perpetrator and one being the victim. So if I was 19 and had sex with my 15 year old girlfriend, that's rape. If I'm 16 and had sex with my 16 year old girlfriend, then it's not.

In both of the above scenarios, you'll notice that from a legal standpoint male/female had nothing to do with it.

Also, do you notice how within this I used the phrase in most jurisdictions that I'm aware of? That's important, and something you continuously do not mention when you give people legal advice on here about rape, or self defense, or weapons, or basically anything else. You seem to go by memory, and state what you are stating as fact, which is never how legal issues work, and is a very dangerous thing to do when people may read what you are writing as something to be taken seriously/legitimately.

I'm wondering how many jurisdictions your " aware of "

statutory rape seems to be an almost exclusively american concept, which would be just one jurisdiction

 

[Tez3]

Er, actually it is, I think ...Rape is a criminal act .... if you commit rape, you are engaging in a criminal act ...so doesn't that make you a criminal?

Being a "criminal" isn't an innate quality... that you manifest for your entire life. Rather, it's what you are if you engage in criminal acts.

That said, I'm not sure "pestering" a person and asking for sex until they just give up and give in by saying "Oh, very well, go ahead" is necessarily rape. It may be abusive and unacceptable, but "rape" implies forced sex, whether by physical or psychological means.

Somehow just "pestering" doesn't seem to rise to that standard. It sounds more like ...well like a child at the checkout line saying, "Can I have a candy bar, huh, can I, can I, can I, can I, ....Pleeeez, can I, can I, can I, (cue bratty tantrum, and fussing) ....and finally the exhausted parent (or, in the other case, sexual partner) gives in to shut the kid up.

Really, people just need to put their partners in time out if they carry on like that! ...Or show them the door, once and for all.

Seriously, we need to support women being assertive when dealing with partners like this. In some cases it seems to be innate For example my wife and daughter are both little people around 5'2" and scary strong willed and assertive about everything. I'm proud of that. Others may need more support and coaching. And all we need to fight old societal norms that encourage women to be docile and submissive.

I thought that change was already well underway ...but in the last few years it seems there has been a huge backlash and progress has been stalled. The culture wars are still raging ...at least where I live.

Ah, what you have missed is the use of the word 'just' this changing the meaning of my sentence to the opposite of my meaning. Of course rape is a criminal offence (except in places where marital rape doesn't exist in law 😕). However it's more than the stereotype stranger violent attack that so many believe is what self defence is meant to be against.

I didn't say that a woman would say go ahead, it's when a man carries on anyway when the woman is no in a position to say no, that's rape whether you think it is or not.

The culture wars are very evident in the US where you have a strong Xtian lobby who believe in such things as 'surrendered wives' and of course from the previous president and his inane objectification and specialisation of women.

 

[Tez3]

I just remembered that I wanted to respond to these:


So, here's the thing about this: when I was single, I was only going to take rejection from any particular woman only once. That's it. Apparently, that wasn't the norm when I was doing it.

Now, this has become the norm. And I've seen women all over social media who aren't happy about it.

Not really my concern, and I'll make sure that my son will also be of the mind that it's not his concern. The whole "persistence" thing is just not worth the risk.


Oh, I will tell my son that some women like it rough and others don't. Because that's the truth.

You can tell your son that but it wasn't my point was it, which was don't tell him that women like it rough.


It's not the norm for men to take no for an answer, we've had horrendous stalking cases as well as murders committed by men who won't take no for an answer. Yes we have women who stalk but for different reasons.😕


It's not your concern how women are treated? Okay so that explains a lot, no concerns for the future of your society or any care for humanity. Remember, for evil to flourish it's enough for good men to do nothing.

 

[Urban Trekker]

It's not your concern how women are treated? Okay so that explains a lot, no concerns for the future of your society or any care for humanity. Remember, for evil to flourish it's enough for good men to do nothing.

Ah, so now you've gone from putting words in my mouth to twisting my words to mean what they didn't mean. Or maybe you're just lost in the sauce. In which case, I'll break this down so that any feeble-minded person can understand:

1. I said that, in my single days, I would take rejection from any particular woman only once. The second she says no, I'm finished. I'm not going to subject myself to rejection a second time.

2. I said that this appears to not have been the norm back then.

3. I base #2 on the fact that women all over social media are complaining that men are no longer persistent and quit after being rejected once.

4. I was saying that their complaints of men quitting after being rejected only once are not my concern. First, because I'm married now. I've been out of the dating game for 16 years now. Secondly, even if that wasn't the case, again, I'm only subjecting myself to rejection once and that's it. Thirdly, even if I was the persistent type, it's not worth the risk of a sexual harassment case. And this is why it's now common for men to stop after being told "no" only once.

Again; their complaints of men no longer being persistent - not my concern.

If that upsets you, then you need to rescind your statement of not telling boys that women play hard to get.

 

[Tez3]

Ah, so now you've gone from putting words in my mouth to twisting my words to mean what they didn't mean. Or maybe you're just lost in the sauce. In which case, I'll break this down so that any feeble-minded person can understand:

1. I said that, in my single days, I would take rejection from any particular woman only once. The second she says no, I'm finished. I'm not going to subject myself to rejection a second time.

2. I said that this appears to not have been the norm back then.

3. I base #2 on the fact that women all over social media are complaining that men are no longer persistent and quit after being rejected once.

4. I was saying that their complaints of men quitting after being rejected only once are not my concern. First, because I'm married now. I've been out of the dating game for 16 years now. Secondly, even if that wasn't the case, again, I'm only subjecting myself to rejection once and that's it. Thirdly, even if I was the persistent type, it's not worth the risk of a sexual harassment case. And this is why it's now common for men to stop after being told "no" only once.

Again; their complaints of men no longer being persistent - not my concern.

If that upsets you, then you need to rescind your statement of not telling boys that women play hard to get.

Lost in the sauce? Dear Lord you think I'm drunk! There's no discussing things with you is there? You constantly misunderstand not just my posts but others, whether deliberately or through lack of comprehension, always coming back with nonsense that you twist so you sound like a victim. 😕

Women aren't all over social media complaining men aren't persistent at all, what on earth are you looking at, first it's frustrated British men now it's whining women, really you are either making poor choices or making it up.

Btw congrats on 16 years married, I've been married for 46 years. I'm also a veteran and had another uniformed career where I saw just about all life, behaviours.....criminal and humane.

If the best you can do is accuse me of being drunk because you don't understand my points then it's down to you not me.

 

[Tez3]

Just a point where it becomes a merry go round. I tend to stay on longer than I should.

It's got to that point now, definitely time to get off this one. 😣

 

[Urban Trekker]

Lost in the sauce? Dear Lord you think I'm drunk! There's no discussing things with you is there? You constantly misunderstand not just my posts but others, whether deliberately or through lack of comprehension, always coming back with nonsense that you twist so you sound like a victim. 😕

Women aren't all over social media complaining men aren't persistent at all, what on earth are you looking at, first it's frustrated British men now it's whining women, really you are either making poor choices or making it up.

Btw congrats on 16 years married, I've been married for 46 years. I'm also a veteran and had another uniformed career where I saw just about all life, behaviours.....criminal and humane.

If the best you can do is accuse me of being drunk because you don't understand my points then it's down to you not me.

Stop Telling Men Who Understand “No” to “Be Persistent”

We’re sending men two opposing messages and then mocking their trepidation.

medium.com

Woman Asks Why A Guy She Turned Down Didn’t Try Harder, Gets The Perfect Response

A guy invites a girl on a date, tries all of his best moves, but she says no. A guy has to move on, otherwise, it's harassment. Unless it isn't? Recently, a girl surprised the internet when she posted a question on Quora, asking why her date wasn't a mind reader.

www.boredpanda.com

Clearly, you're the type that doesn't know when they've been defeated. So I'm going to tell you: you've been defeated. Just stop.

 

[Tez3]

Stop Telling Men Who Understand “No” to “Be Persistent”

We’re sending men two opposing messages and then mocking their trepidation.

medium.com

Woman Asks Why A Guy She Turned Down Didn’t Try Harder, Gets The Perfect Response

A guy invites a girl on a date, tries all of his best moves, but she says no. A guy has to move on, otherwise, it's harassment. Unless it isn't? Recently, a girl surprised the internet when she posted a question on Quora, asking why her date wasn't a mind reader.

www.boredpanda.com

Clearly, you're the type that doesn't know when they've been defeated. So I'm going to tell you: you've been defeated. Just stop.

Son, your language shows exactly how seriously you took this discussion, only it wasn't a discussion to you it was all about defeating your opponent. Childish behaviour betraying the fact you are a keyboard warrior with delusions of being relevant.

If you think puff pieces from advertising driven sites are legitimate citations then my dear you are seriously deluded about your claims of being a student of socialogy.

No I'm not 'defeated' I wasn't competing or fighting as you were, I was genuinely trying to put a female perspective on a subject close to my heart, you on the other hand were all about point scoring with no thought to the subject matter.

You accused me of being drunk, on the juice, as you called it. It says far more about you than me. My dear, you may think you've won something but really that's just your ego talking. The losers, of course, are those looking here to find serious, competent and practical advice on female self defence and finding instead a male giving his opinion that most things wrong with the world are down to single mothers, but of course he's perfect, the ideal husband, respects women of course. Only he doesnt, because he can't sustain a civilised, open minded discussion with a woman without wanting to 'win' it.

And now I am going to have a drink, my son in law's team have just won the Derby and I prefer to talk to reasonable people who don't see conversations as a battlefield.

Enjoy your Pyrric victory.

 

[Urban Trekker]

Son, your language shows exactly how seriously you took this discussion, only it wasn't a discussion to you it was all about defeating your opponent. Childish behaviour betraying the fact you are a keyboard warrior with delusions of being relevant.

If you think puff pieces from advertising driven sites are legitimate citations then my dear you are seriously deluded about your claims of being a student of socialogy.

No I'm not 'defeated' I wasn't competing or fighting as you were, I was genuinely trying to put a female perspective on a subject close to my heart, you on the other hand were all about point scoring with no thought to the subject matter.

You accused me of being drunk, on the juice, as you called it. It says far more about you than me. My dear, you may think you've won something but really that's just your ego talking. The losers, of course, are those looking here to find serious, competent and practical advice on female self defence and finding instead a male giving his opinion that most things wrong with the world are down to single mothers, but of course he's perfect, the ideal husband, respects women of course. Only he doesnt, because he can't sustain a civilised, open minded discussion with a woman without wanting to 'win' it.

And now I am going to have a drink, my son in law's team have just won the Derby and I prefer to talk to reasonable people who don't see conversations as a battlefield.

Enjoy your Pyrric victory.

Oh, this long-winded reply full of character judgements, and you're not taking this seriously?

It should come as no surprise that you're going dismiss sources that destroy your narrative (yet, another example of you not knowing when you've been defeated), but you'd better learn how to spell sociology before making assessments on how well versed others are in it.

I suggest you do what you said you were going to do, and stop. You've had enough internet for the day.

 

[Dirty Dog]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:
This thread, like all threads, has a topic. Please return to that topic. Before you click the POST button, you would be well advised to ask yourself if your post is about that topic. If your post isn't about that topic, you should reconsider posting it.

Mark A Cochran
@Dirty Dog
Martial Talk Senior Moderator

 

[Tez3]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:
This thread, like all threads, has a topic. Please return to that topic. Before you click the POST button, you would be well advised to ask yourself if your post is about that topic. If your post isn't about that topic, you should reconsider posting it.

Mark A Cochran
@Dirty Dog
Martial Talk Senior Moderator

It seems the subject of women's self defence is a difficult one for some to discuss, as is defence against rape. I would suggest actually closing the thread. I doubt the discussion will continue in any meaningful way, at least meaningful to females. 😢

It's no surprise that so few if any other women ever post on here. We used to have a lot, this is the sort of thing that drives them away.