Wing Chun weapon defence

[Kensai]

Hi guys,

Noticed the WC forum was a little quiet recently. So I was wondering, who in their WC class includes weapons, or the SD elements of weapon, knife drills, kosh, etc.

I don't mean do you butterfly knife drills, or tri-pole forms, but actual SD aspect of taking, handling, confronting an aggressor with weapons.

Just curious. :asian:

 

[Stu]

yup, our class of Wing Chun includes this. Mainly knife self defence and it only appears once in the syllabus (its the Ip Ching syllabus), its a simply dissarm from a knife lunge.

My Sifu is very aware that knife attacks are serious stuff, so outside of the syllabus we practice simply street defence techniques and how to apply our wing chun and quite abit of it is knife defence.

We also play around with some escrima from time to time and use some wing chun techniques in that as well.

 

[Kensai]

yup, our class of Wing Chun includes this. Mainly knife self defence and it only appears once in the syllabus (its the Ip Ching syllabus), its a simply dissarm from a knife lunge.

My Sifu is very aware that knife attacks are serious stuff, so outside of the syllabus we practice simply street defence techniques and how to apply our wing chun and quite abit of it is knife defence.

We also play around with some escrima from time to time and use some wing chun techniques in that as well.

Cool, like the sounds of that. How long are you classes? Ours tend to be around 2 hours or so.

 

[Stu]

Our classes are officially an hour long although i've never been to one that finishes then... they usually last about 1 and a half hours to 2 hours.

 

[MJS]

My Sifu is very aware that knife attacks are serious stuff, so outside of the syllabus we practice simply street defence techniques and how to apply our wing chun and quite abit of it is knife defence.

We also play around with some escrima from time to time and use some wing chun techniques in that as well.

Is weapon defense something that is normally not covered or not looked at in depth? I ask this because I notice in your post that you said that your Sifu works this material outside of the syllabus.

I don't know much about this art, so thats why I'm asking.

Mike

 

[Kensai]

Is weapon defense something that is normally not covered or not looked at in depth? I ask this because I notice in your post that you said that your Sifu works this material outside of the syllabus.

I don't know much about this art, so thats why I'm asking.

Mike

Well, to be honest, it's not something that we cover in ours at all. I was looking to try and do a second art that would complement, or cover a few gaps as it were, but don't really have the time right now.

 

[MJS]

Well, to be honest, it's not something that we cover in ours at all. I was looking to try and do a second art that would complement, or cover a few gaps as it were, but don't really have the time right now.

Thanks for the reply!:ultracool

You may want to look at the FMA's for your weapon work, if you were looking to cross train. Lots of great stuff there!:ultracool

Mike

 

[Kensai]

Thanks for the reply!:ultracool

You may want to look at the FMA's for your weapon work, if you were looking to cross train. Lots of great stuff there!:ultracool

Mike

I'm getting that impression. In fairness, and I've said it before, I'm like a kid in a sweet shop when it comes to the martial arts. Or even the marital arts.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings!

Wing Chun execution for weapons defense has to be tempered with thought and lessons from the actual handling of the weapon.

In other words, if you don't know how to use the weapon (blade, firearm or blunt weapon... the ones we have to worry about!) the direct application of the principles from empty hand will be inneffective.

Taking note of the principles of Wing Chun, you can take into account the principles of weapons defense, like for a gun, getting out of the line of fire (some traps might still get you in the line of fire and shot!), etc.

For a blade, to be light on the feet (here a low bong sau deflection might move the attacking arm... yet by just moving the weapon a bit you're cut!)... etc.


So serious thought should com of what are the fundamental principles of weapons defense... and as in Wing Chun, distill the principles into the simplest, most efficient forms...

So Wing Chun is not only a technique set... it is a way to look at things and make them simple and complete at the same time!

More examples of the applications to weapons defense that Iuse at my school if anyone asks... very important subject!

sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado

P.S. One of my teachers said that if Wing Chun is still made more complete by adding material, he is not impressed... yet if by making it even simpler and taking away material and it is still complete, then that is a breakthrough!

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[ed-swckf]

Greetings!

Wing Chun execution for weapons defense has to be tempered with thought and lessons from the actual handling of the weapon.

In other words, if you don't know how to use the weapon (blade, firearm or blunt weapon... the ones we have to worry about!) the direct application of the principles from empty hand will be inneffective.

This is of great importance and i would also suggest the psychology of an armed person. For a breaif explanation of what i mean lets take the guy who brandishes a knife as a threatening tool. Although he may use it he is less likely too and by understanding the postion the opponent is in, often wanting to get away as cleanly as possible. This situation is esque of many muggings, and your own psychology comes into play when you weigh up what is in your wallet etc. vs. the value of your life. I generally advise keeping distance and cooperating in this situation. Another similar situation i have seen has been in security work, a very desperate guy armed with used heroin needles (possibility of HIV) really wanted to get out and his temper was very volitile. Generally we give him a free path to the door so he feels less trapped and has an escape from his situation. Don't worry he was apprehended but his state of mind had to be controlled in the dangerous situation. The point is many people treaten with weapons out of fear and this makes them unpredictable, of course you can train for the situation when you have no choice i know i do and training with a couple of rubber knives is actually great fun when you play with a million possibilities.

Of course if someones intent is to stab you then the chances are they won't show you a knife, in fact they may not even show themselves and take you by supprise. There are many ways to brandish a weapon so no one can tell until it is to late, understanding this is also an important aspect of the training as well as how to react if you have been stabbed.

Taking note of the principles of Wing Chun, you can take into account the principles of weapons defense, like for a gun, getting out of the line of fire (some traps might still get you in the line of fire and shot!), etc.

For a blade, to be light on the feet (here a low bong sau deflection might move the attacking arm... yet by just moving the weapon a bit you're cut!)... etc.

Yeah, the kwoon is a great place to come up with and work as much defence work, remembering defence work doesn't always mean engaging the opponent. Reading the situation is important.

So serious thought should com of what are the fundamental principles of weapons defense... and as in Wing Chun, distill the principles into the simplest, most efficient forms...

So Wing Chun is not only a technique set... it is a way to look at things and make them simple and complete at the same time!


More examples of the applications to weapons defense that Iuse at my school if anyone asks... very important subject!

sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado

Yeah the idea isn't to give you a million and one answers to the same question that you then have to choose the right one, its about training good complete movements that work quickly and effectively without involving the mind - this leaves the mind free to referee the situation.

P.S. One of my teachers said that if Wing Chun is still made more complete by adding material, he is not impressed... yet if by making it even simpler and taking away material and it is still complete, then that is a breakthrough!

What are your thoughts on this?

Its something i've heard many a time from my sifu and others "don't add more add less". Again you can add and add and add and eventually end up with a different tool for every situation and then you can add tools for every varience and this just takes up a **** load of system resources and gives you a huge system. Wing chun is a small system and a complete one at that, yip man made a lot of refinements in the system but it remained complete. I see this on a personal level now as i will mould wing chun to work as a complete system for me, i may find ihave a tool that covers x and y and a tool that just covers x - do i need the latter tool? Now the thing to remember is that this is a personal thing so when teaching you must give the student the benifit of the entire system not just the system that suits you in order for them to take what works for them and refine it.

nice post by the way.

 

[Kensai]

This is of great importance and i would also suggest the psychology of an armed person. For a breaif explanation of what i mean lets take the guy who brandishes a knife as a threatening tool. Although he may use it he is less likely too and by understanding the postion the opponent is in, often wanting to get away as cleanly as possible. This situation is esque of many muggings, and your own psychology comes into play when you weigh up what is in your wallet etc. vs. the value of your life. I generally advise keeping distance and cooperating in this situation. Another similar situation i have seen has been in security work, a very desperate guy armed with used heroin needles (possibility of HIV) really wanted to get out and his temper was very volitile. Generally we give him a free path to the door so he feels less trapped and has an escape from his situation. Don't worry he was apprehended but his state of mind had to be controlled in the dangerous situation. The point is many people treaten with weapons out of fear and this makes them unpredictable, of course you can train for the situation when you have no choice i know i do and training with a couple of rubber knives is actually great fun when you play with a million possibilities.

Of course if someones intent is to stab you then the chances are they won't show you a knife, in fact they may not even show themselves and take you by supprise. There are many ways to brandish a weapon so no one can tell until it is to late, understanding this is also an important aspect of the training as well as how to react if you have been stabbed.



Yeah, the kwoon is a great place to come up with and work as much defence work, remembering defence work doesn't always mean engaging the opponent. Reading the situation is important.




Yeah the idea isn't to give you a million and one answers to the same question that you then have to choose the right one, its about training good complete movements that work quickly and effectively without involving the mind - this leaves the mind free to referee the situation.



Its something i've heard many a time from my sifu and others "don't add more add less". Again you can add and add and add and eventually end up with a different tool for every situation and then you can add tools for every varience and this just takes up a **** load of system resources and gives you a huge system. Wing chun is a small system and a complete one at that, yip man made a lot of refinements in the system but it remained complete. I see this on a personal level now as i will mould wing chun to work as a complete system for me, i may find ihave a tool that covers x and y and a tool that just covers x - do i need the latter tool? Now the thing to remember is that this is a personal thing so when teaching you must give the student the benifit of the entire system not just the system that suits you in order for them to take what works for them and refine it.

nice post by the way.

Great post there Ed. Some very valid points, most notably about the keeping you distance element of weapon facing, and the simple factor that as a defender, you may not even be given the chance to see the blade. Again, awareness is a key factor here.

Stripping away moves/techniques is an interesting point too. As mentioned, perhaps many other styles, systems may decide to use as many techniques as there are possible variances in attack, but as to how confusing, or how much cerebral input/time that would use up as opposed to a more conditioned reflexive response would be down to the individual. Something I'd not considered though, cheers fellas.

:asian:

 

[ed-swckf]

Great post there Ed. Some very valid points, most notably about the keeping you distance element of weapon facing, and the simple factor that as a defender, you may not even be given the chance to see the blade. Again, awareness is a key factor here.

Well i know if i wanted to stab someone i wouldn't let them know my intentions and probably do it from behind. Ovewr before they know it started, however i hope i'm never in a postion to do that really.

Stripping away moves/techniques is an interesting point too. As mentioned, perhaps many other styles, systems may decide to use as many techniques as there are possible variances in attack, but as to how confusing, or how much cerebral input/time that would use up as opposed to a more conditioned reflexive response would be down to the individual. Something I'd not considered though, cheers fellas.

:asian:

thats one thing i love about wing chun, nothing is really set, you are either fighting or you aren't. When you are you just do what you do without thinking and deal with it as quickly as possible in order to get on with your life. Some arts are very complex and do give you a lot to think about which is great and obviously takes more time learn it all. I'm not saying thats wrong at all but i always think k.i.s.s. is the way to go, i mean you can add all the extra stuff so long as your stock stuff is good and working so you always have something to use. I am by no means disputing the effectivness of any other art but a response to a knife attack can't really be too regimented as the whole thing is so varible and dangerous. I mean sure you can have a specific strategy that will be very variable, like our learned freind suggested being light on your feet. But its an area of training that you should be very critical of when you train it, i mean its no use having someone step in with a knife a few times and thinking you can deal with knife enties, like what was said about the bong sau getting cut. Its a bit different with regular fighting it can afford to be a bit more scrappy and mistakes are safer to recover from. Knives are scary dangerous and the training should represent the threat they present. I personally will avoid fighting a knife guy as much as possible, especially if they are handy!

And definitely look into the FMA's apart from anything they are fun and there are a few back and forth drills you can mess around with and interject wing chun entry as a finish.

 

[Kensai]

Well i know if i wanted to stab someone i wouldn't let them know my intentions and probably do it from behind. Ovewr before they know it started, however i hope i'm never in a postion to do that really.

thats one thing i love about wing chun, nothing is really set, you are either fighting or you aren't. When you are you just do what you do without thinking and deal with it as quickly as possible in order to get on with your life. Some arts are very complex and do give you a lot to think about which is great and obviously takes more time learn it all. I'm not saying thats wrong at all but i always think k.i.s.s. is the way to go, i mean you can add all the extra stuff so long as your stock stuff is good and working so you always have something to use. I am by no means disputing the effectivness of any other art but a response to a knife attack can't really be too regimented as the whole thing is so varible and dangerous. I mean sure you can have a specific strategy that will be very variable, like our learned freind suggested being light on your feet. But its an area of training that you should be very critical of when you train it, i mean its no use having someone step in with a knife a few times and thinking you can deal with knife enties, like what was said about the bong sau getting cut. Its a bit different with regular fighting it can afford to be a bit more scrappy and mistakes are safer to recover from. Knives are scary dangerous and the training should represent the threat they present. I personally will avoid fighting a knife guy as much as possible, especially if they are handy!

And definitely look into the FMA's apart from anything they are fun and there are a few back and forth drills you can mess around with and interject wing chun entry as a finish.

Again, great post. If I were the kind of person to go round stabbing others, I'd keep that blade hidden until the last second. To defend against a knife, I think judgement of distance, waiting for either the chance to run, or make your move is critical.

 

[ed-swckf]

Again, great post. If I were the kind of person to go round stabbing others, I'd keep that blade hidden until the last second. To defend against a knife, I think judgement of distance, waiting for either the chance to run, or make your move is critical.

You are absoloutely right, indecision is dangerous in situations like that. Imean feints with a knife are just a little more critical than feints with hand to hand combat.

 

[Kensai]

You are absoloutely right, indecision is dangerous in situations like that. Imean feints with a knife are just a little more critical than feints with hand to hand combat.

I think indecision is a problem in any SD situation, however, in a knife fight, it's even worse.

 

[monji112000]

Well I can say my lineage has SD, Law Enforcement, and Knife/GUN/club(stick) training. My lineage is a combination of Lo Man Kam and Duncan Leung.

Sigung Duncan Leung was very famous for his knife fighting and from what I have read not all of it was from Wing Chun specifically. Sigung Lo man works with the Taiwanese Swat. I know he as integrated many things and I have had the pleasure of meeting some Taiwanese Swat members. I have done a little of the SD stuff, but mostly We have focused on Strictly Wing Chun, later in my training I am sure we will spend more time on SD ect..

For more information about Lo Man Kam Wing Chun :
http://lomankamwingchun.blogharbor.com/blog/_WebPages/AboutSifu.html

For more information about Duncan leung’s Wing Chun:
http://members.tripod.com/~Wing_Chun/hpageie.html
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/

 

[ed-swckf]

Sigung Duncan Leung was very famous for his knife fighting and from what I have read not all of it was from Wing Chun specifically. Sigung Lo man works with the Taiwanese Swat. I know he as integrated many things and I have had the pleasure of meeting some Taiwanese Swat members. I have done a little of the SD stuff, but mostly We have focused on Strictly Wing Chun, later in my training I am sure we will spend more time on SD ect..

/

But using wing chun to incapacitate someone and put them on their *** is SD?

 

[monji112000]

I don't follow you?


incapacitate someone and put them on their *** can be SD. Shooting the Guy is also SD.

If you are asking what I think SD is, then... its anything you can do to protect yourself( you must be safe in the end). Really this requires little Wing Chun Knowledge. A person can learn SD without really learning much Wing Chun. That is to say they could not fight someone but they could "protect themselves" and get away. SD training has many aspects not just "technique". Learning the Whole system of Wing Chun is overkill. Even Half is overkill. Probably even a quarter is overkill.



JMO

 

[ed-swckf]

I don't follow you?


incapacitate someone and put them on their *** can be SD. Shooting the Guy is also SD.

If you are asking what I think SD is, then... its anything you can do to protect yourself( you must be safe in the end). Really this requires little Wing Chun Knowledge. A person can learn SD without really learning much Wing Chun. That is to say they could not fight someone but they could "protect themselves" and get away. SD training has many aspects not just "technique". Learning the Whole system of Wing Chun is overkill. Even Half is overkill. Probably even a quarter is overkill.



JMO

"but mostly We have focused on Strictly Wing Chun, later in my training I am sure we will spend more time on SD ect.."

The statement alluded to them being of a seperate nature. Like you have said SD is anything you can do to protect yourself and wing chun is one thing you can use to protect yourself, thus wing chun isn't exclusive from the definition you yourself have given to SD. Technique has nothing to do with this and learning the whole wing chun system is not overkill, its sensible.

Essentially my post was to illustrate how the wording of your post confuses what you have gone on to say in this post. Nothing more.

 

[monji112000]

In some cases yes and in some cases no. Its not a black and white issue.


My statement means what it says. My training is mostly geared to Fighting, later I hope to gear to learning more of Law Enforcement and SD emphasized skills.