Wing Chun Misconceptions

[KamonGuy2]

We seem to be going round in circles with no one really offering any new evidence to the contrary. The point is that if wing chun could handle itself adequately on the ground, you would hear of MMA guys training in it

People have mentioned Sam Kwok, but even he had a (famous) seminar with Carlos Gracie (its on youtube somewhere), emphasising the importance of ground work and clinching

There are certainly methods you can try on the floor from your wing chun training (Xue Sheng mentioned the example of kicking, which is effective up to a certain point), but generally, wing chun has no strategy for ground fighting

I work ground stuff all the time, and it is a combination of wing chun principles and BJJ techniques

Hunt1 gave a freat example of how wing chun faired in a stand up MMA game, which is good, but not really what I was talking about. My brother fended off most of the BJJ gusy when he went to America because his body mechanics and sensitivity allowed him to negotiate around their takedown attempts. Yet he still has been on the floor in fights (overpowered by two guys etc).

All I would advise, is those chunners who have never stepped outside of a wing chun school - go look around. Test your wing chun (im not advocating dong saos!). If it works against other martial artists, the good for you, but I think you will be surprised

 

[mograph]

Tell me if I'm wrong, but in an MMA context, the goal is to stay on the ground and get a submission from your opponent if you can, because you are required to engage. In "the street", the goal is to disengage from your opponent and a) get the heck out of there or b) get back to a standup fight.

So a successful ground game to a non-MMA fighter would be the one where he can escape, not force a submission. Right?

So comparing the MMA and WC would be problematic. If a non-MMA fighter wants to be prepared for ground work, at least he should train to disengage, right?

 

[Tez3]

Tell me if I'm wrong, but in an MMA context, the goal is to stay on the ground and get a submission from your opponent if you can, because you are required to engage. In "the street", the goal is to disengage from your opponent and a) get the heck out of there or b) get back to a standup fight.

So a successful ground game to a non-MMA fighter would be the one where he can escape, not force a submission. Right?

So comparing the MMA and WC would be problematic. If a non-MMA fighter wants to be prepared for ground work, at least he should train to disengage, right?

No, the goal in MMA is to win the contest, not to stay on the ground. To win you play to your strengths and your opponents weaknesses, if the guys good on the ground you keep it standing, if he's good standing you try to take him down. A good many MMA fights don't spend long on the floor and the ability to get standing again quickly is a good one to train for. Most MMA fights are equal amonts of floor work with stand up, too many people think that it's stand up then goes to the floor where it stays. Escapes are very important to MMA fighters, we spend a lot of time drilling them.

 

[jks9199]

Tell me if I'm wrong, but in an MMA context, the goal is to stay on the ground and get a submission from your opponent if you can, because you are required to engage. In "the street", the goal is to disengage from your opponent and a) get the heck out of there or b) get back to a standup fight.

So a successful ground game to a non-MMA fighter would be the one where he can escape, not force a submission. Right?

So comparing the MMA and WC would be problematic. If a non-MMA fighter wants to be prepared for ground work, at least he should train to disengage, right?

There are basically three ways to win in MMA: submission, knockout (or TKO or other ref stoppage), or points. As Tez says - you play to your strengths. If I'm going to play the MMA game -- I'm going to stay with stand up and any ground work would be to escape and get back to my feet. Someone from a heavy BJJ or wrestling background might instead use stand up to close in and take an opponent down. If I'm on the street -- I don't want to be on the ground long, either unless I have a purpose (like cuffing someone). Too much can happen there.

 

[Tez3]

There's rules in MMA to make sure people don't get hurt but there's no rules on how you want to fight. I've seen a lot of MMA fights where no one went to the floor as well as some that went to the floor and stayed there. It's part of the fun having to work out your tactics as you go along, that too may be a part of why MMA is good for practising for SD, the fact you have to think on your feet as it were. You may know what your opponents strengths and weaknesses and how you want the fight to go but you have to be prepared for surprises.

 

[mograph]

Hmm ... interesting. Thanks!

 

[Vajramusti]

Internet discussions on wing chun on the net often and very easily strays into what is really a mma discussion. Bits of wing chun plus bjj imo fwiw does not really equally wing chun.Though wing chun schools abound some instructors have arrested development of their wing chun.
In following a good wing chun route if the idea of body unity is developed rather than depending on fixed techniques one can deal with a horizontal(better) or horizontal(posture)-though it's not preferable in most cases to deliberately go to the ground.If the body is developed asa cohesive unit lots of alternatives in uses of joints become possible
But incomplete wing chun training and the allure of watching ufc etc- makes it understandable as to why making wing chun into a weak form of mma
is very much the thrust of many discussions.
Many martial arts schools offer a "mixed" curriculum for purposes of marketing- diversification.

joy chaudhuri

 

[MJS]

Hey MJS, if an armbar or lock of ANY TYPE presents itself on the street, I would take it....and turn it into a BREAK!

Of course.

Ignoring the ground game completely brings one back twenty years in their training....to the days of the one punch kill mentality that was prevalent in Karate, TKD, TSD....and maybe other stand up arts. I too like the ground training for escapes, positional dominance, and stand up skills. Going for submissions is fun too and GREAT EXERCISE. It is a fun and physically challenging game of "Man Chess"! LOL

Agreed. I do enjoy rolling during a class or workout, outside of class, going for subs, etc.

 

[MJS]

Tell me if I'm wrong, but in an MMA context, the goal is to stay on the ground and get a submission from your opponent if you can, because you are required to engage. In "the street", the goal is to disengage from your opponent and a) get the heck out of there or b) get back to a standup fight.

So a successful ground game to a non-MMA fighter would be the one where he can escape, not force a submission. Right?

So comparing the MMA and WC would be problematic. If a non-MMA fighter wants to be prepared for ground work, at least he should train to disengage, right?

Alot has changed since the early UFC events. Back in the day, yeah, you'd see Rocye spend the entire time on the mat, looking for a choke. Today, we see alot more standup, and G&P. This isn't to say that subs. dont happen, but the fighters of today are much more adept than past fighters.

As I said, for myself, no, I'm not going to intentionally look for a sub, but yeah, if something presents itself, and I can take advantage of a choke or break, then yes, I'd take it. Again, that is not my main goal, but why pass up a gift?

IMO, the ground arts to provide the standup fighter with a safe, solid way of getting back up. I'll use an example that I use often....Mark Coleman vs. Maurice Smith. Smith trained enough grappling with Frank Shamrock to survive Colemans ground attacks, which IMO, were limited, because it appeared at the time, that he didn't know that many subs, other than G&P. Mo was able to get back up and ended up finishing with a kick that KOd Mark.