Wing Chun Kicking : No chambering required.

[geezer]

The biggest problem for WC with "chambering" ...the way many Karate styles chamber a front kick -- especially a lead leg front kick -- is that it involves retracting the leg, both before and after delivery to achieve the classical chamber. From a WC perspective, any withdrawing energy is an invitation for your opponent to stick, follow, and invade your space. In the following clip from Bill's own style of Isshin Ryu (one of the more "WC-ish" styles of Karate by the way) you can clearly see this withdrawal to chamber before and after each kick. By contrast, in the "WT" I learned, the leg was lifted straight up by the knee, toe up, solefacing forwards, and then the knee and hip thrust the leg forward. Upon completion the foot drops straight to the floor without withdrawing at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDYCEHl4zLw&feature=related

Now, here is a clip of Wong Shun Leung's Chum Kiu. You will notice that the front kicks aren't really much different than the previously illustrated kicks in Leung Ting's Chum Kiu. He does lift the knee... just not very high.

OK, and here's Leung Ting again for comparison:

Note: Both masters keep a very relaxed leg and neither one withdraws his kicks back to a rigid chamber. Some other observations on the lifting of the knee as you prepare to kick: If your opponent is kicking at the same time, your knee, shin, and foot act as a "wu-gherk" or "guarding leg" to cover and deflect attacks to your lower gates, just as your "wu-sau" or "guarding hand" covers centerline and protects your upper body. Moreover, if your opponent tries to charge in and jam your kick, the rising knee and shin automatically function as a shin or knee strike to your opponent's groin or gut, and can also penetrate his stance, destroying his foundation.... just by extending forward pressure. Very useful.

 

[mook jong man]

The biggest problem for WC with "chambering" ...the way many Karate styles chamber a front kick -- especially a lead leg front kick -- is that it involves retracting the leg, both before and after delivery to achieve the classical chamber. From a WC perspective, any withdrawing energy is an invitation for your opponent to stick, follow, and invade your space. In the following clip from Bill's own style of Isshin Ryu (one of the more "WC-ish" styles of Karate by the way) you can clearly see this withdrawal to chamber before and after each kick. By contrast, in the "WT" I learned, the leg was lifted straight up by the knee, toe up, solefacing forwards, and then the knee and hip thrust the leg forward. Upon completion the foot drops straight to the floor without withdrawing at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDYCEHl4zLw&feature=related

That's exactly right , one of the most important functions of the Wing Chun kicks is to enable you to "bridge the gap" safely and get into chi sau range.
If your foot is not dropping straight to the floor you are not gaining any distance at all on your opponent and you are no better off than when you started , becoming easy pickings for long range kickers and punchers.

You are also not capitolising on using the forward momentum of your body mass to generate the power in your hand striking when your foot does hit the floor , because your leg has come straight back to your stance instead of trying to gain distance , your centre of mass has not moved at all , it is essentially a wasted movement.

 

[Eric_H]

That's exactly right , one of the most important functions of the Wing Chun kicks is to enable you to "bridge the gap" safely and get into chi sau range.

For of what I learned of YM wing chun, this is true.

In Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun this is a false statement - we don't use kicks to bridge and we don't look to close to chi sao. That's what our Kiu Sao is for - engagement.

Can't remember what the Chi Sim strategy for moving in was, too many years since it and it wasn't trained deeply enough.

 

[mook jong man]

For of what I learned of YM wing chun, this is true.

In Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun this is a false statement - we don't use kicks to bridge and we don't look to close to chi sao. That's what our Kiu Sao is for - engagement.

Can't remember what the Chi Sim strategy for moving in was, too many years since it and it wasn't trained deeply enough.

When I say chi sau range I just mean arm range or punching range not literally chi sau.

If you don't use kicks to bridge the gap and you want to initiate the attack then how do you safely traverse the gap without you yourself getting kicked by the opponent as you are moving into punching range?
Because bridging the gap techniques serve the double function of guarding and attacking.

The only thing I can think of is you must wait until the opponent is in stepping range before you move in , is that about right.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

Chambered kicks are more for "stabbing" (getting around obstructions), non-chambered kicks are a swing even if the striking surface travels in a straight line the lever still has to travel in a circular motion. While a non-chambered kick does indeed move at a higher velocity, the lever is exposed longer and the entire leg is a much bigger target than the bottom of the foot in a chambered kick stabbing in and stabbing out. As to being jammed there are a ton of what if's but my experience has been with chambered kicks there's a smaller jamming window and if jammed your punishment isn't as immediate, off balanced etc becomes a different subject...with a non-chambered kick being jammed means instant *thwack* on the shin or knee by a knee or elbow, possibly with breaking force. Leg-blocks have me extremely wary of using a roundhouse, let-alone non-chambered kicks.
That being said there's tremendous kinetic energy in a non-chambered kick, just don't transfer the energy to their knee with your shin. For footsweeps the power of the circle comes in handy.
I like knees, less risk and it caters to leg blocks This almost always chambers my leg for a kick, which can become a step, which can become a trap. I also learned in foot fighting to keep my sole above theirs, above their knee, above their shin etc to "kick down their leg". I've found non-chambered kicks are easier to catch with my feet (and knees) while chambered kicks are easier to catch with the hands or something like a mikazuki geri-uke (crescent kick block) than they are to jam. Against a non-chambered kick use the "sack of antlers" defense.
Just my experiences such as they are.

 

[mook jong man]

Chambered kicks are more for "stabbing" (getting around obstructions), non-chambered kicks are a swing even if the striking surface travels in a straight line the lever still has to travel in a circular motion. While a non-chambered kick does indeed move at a higher velocity, the lever is exposed longer and the entire leg is a much bigger target than the bottom of the foot in a chambered kick stabbing in and stabbing out. As to being jammed there are a ton of what if's but my experience has been with chambered kicks there's a smaller jamming window and if jammed your punishment isn't as immediate, off balanced etc becomes a different subject...with a non-chambered kick being jammed means instant *thwack* on the shin or knee by a knee or elbow, possibly with breaking force. Leg-blocks have me extremely wary of using a roundhouse, let-alone non-chambered kicks.
That being said there's tremendous kinetic energy in a non-chambered kick, just don't transfer the energy to their knee with your shin. For footsweeps the power of the circle comes in handy.
I like knees, less risk and it caters to leg blocks This almost always chambers my leg for a kick, which can become a step, which can become a trap. I also learned in foot fighting to keep my sole above theirs, above their knee, above their shin etc to "kick down their leg". I've found non-chambered kicks are easier to catch with my feet (and knees) while chambered kicks are easier to catch with the hands or something like a mikazuki geri-uke (crescent kick block) than they are to jam. Against a non-chambered kick use the "sack of antlers" defense.
Just my experiences such as they are.

This is the whole crux of the matter , when the non chambered kicks are launched from the correct Wing Chun stance.
Which in our lineage means either leg has equal opportunity to strike , then there is no detection , the movement is so direct and non telegraphic that there is little hope in stopping it.

At the type of range in Wing Chun that we are talking about there is no pre movement , there is no shoulder movement to give the game away.
One minute his foot is on the floor the next instant it is smashing into your shins , knee cap or groin , there is no warning , any type of chambering action will result in the kick being jammed by the other guys shins as he rushes forward to get into punching range.

It is pretty damn near impossible in my estimation to stop a low heel kick to the knee or shin , the distance of travel is only about three feet , Wing Chun guys have trouble with them , so anybody else will have no hope.

Anything can be stopped if it is detected in time , the problem arises when it is not detected in time because it is so direct and there is no pre movement to warn of the impending attack.

Next time any of you do chi sau , both of you put on some shin pads and as you are doing chi sau start low heel kicking each others knee/shins randomly.
I guarantee you won't be stopping too many and if you do , let me know because I want to come and study with you.

 

[geezer]

...Against a non-chambered kick use the "sack of antlers" defense.

??? OK, I'm trying to imagine this. Little help, please!

 

[mook jong man]

??? OK, I'm trying to imagine this. Little help, please!

I don't know anything about a sack of antlers , but I remember dropping like a sack of **** when I got kicked in the shin lol.

 

[Buka]

What a great thread.

I've known some Wing Chun guys, man, they could kick the crap out of you.They didn't chamber anything.
I've known some other guys who chamber their kicks like a shotgun, man, they could kick the crap out of you.

 

[Eric_H]

When I say chi sau range I just mean arm range or punching range not literally chi sau.

If you don't use kicks to bridge the gap and you want to initiate the attack then how do you safely traverse the gap without you yourself getting kicked by the opponent as you are moving into punching range?
Because bridging the gap techniques serve the double function of guarding and attacking.

The only thing I can think of is you must wait until the opponent is in stepping range before you move in , is that about right.

Ok, misunderstood what you meant then.

We tend not to look at it as "bridging the gap," in Hung Fa Yi we have a pretty extensive set of strategy for how to read leverage points for entry - Half point theory, Kiu Sao Centerline, Tien Yan Dei, Box Theory, Gate Theory - there's no way I can give you a simple "we do X" type of answer. Makes discussion kind of hard, sadly =/ Best thing I can say is we've got a ruleset to break things down for each dimension - front to back, left to right and vertical.

 

[mook jong man]

Ok, misunderstood what you meant then.

We tend not to look at it as "bridging the gap," in Hung Fa Yi we have a pretty extensive set of strategy for how to read leverage points for entry - Half point theory, Kiu Sao Centerline, Tien Yan Dei, Box Theory, Gate Theory - there's no way I can give you a simple "we do X" type of answer. Makes discussion kind of hard, sadly =/ Best thing I can say is we've got a ruleset to break things down for each dimension - front to back, left to right and vertical.

No worries brother , some things can be pretty hard to explain in just text.

But I think I have a rough idea of what you are talking about , my other theory was going to be that somehow you pass through a nearby worm hole , travel the space/time continuum across parallel dimensions and multiple universes.

You then end up exiting a worm hole behind your opponent , who you find has aged 50 years while you've been gone , you then kick out his zimmer frame causing him to fall to the ground and break his hip thus defeating him. :uhyeah:

 

[Cyriacus]

No worries brother , some things can be pretty hard to explain in just text.

But I think I have a rough idea of what you are talking about , my other theory was going to be that somehow you pass through a nearby worm hole , travel the space/time continuum across parallel dimensions and multiple universes.

You then end up exiting a worm hole behind your opponent , who you find has aged 50 years while you've been gone , you then kick out his zimmer frame causing him to fall to the ground and break his hip thus defeating him. :uhyeah:

...But what if He tried to Dodge as You did this, and You end up Warping INSIDE HIM. *Clasps hands over face*

 

[yak sao]

...But what if He tried to Dodge as You did this, and You end up Warping INSIDE HIM. *Clasps hands over face*

No problem. This is where the wedge shape of the arms comes into play. We simply split him in half.

 

[Cyriacus]

No problem. This is where the wedge shape of the arms comes into play. We simply split him in half.

True, but what if You got Blood on Your Shoes? Hm?

 

[Em MacIntosh]

Sack of Antlers: Guy you play football with that always manages to feed you an elbow, knee or some other pointy bone when you tackle them.

 

[Eric_H]

No worries brother , some things can be pretty hard to explain in just text.

But I think I have a rough idea of what you are talking about , my other theory was going to be that somehow you pass through a nearby worm hole , travel the space/time continuum across parallel dimensions and multiple universes.

You then end up exiting a worm hole behind your opponent , who you find has aged 50 years while you've been gone , you then kick out his zimmer frame causing him to fall to the ground and break his hip thus defeating him. :uhyeah:

Lol, nice

 

[mograph]

One of my Yiquan friends showed me a close-in technique: strike with the hands to distract the opponent from the low kick to the knee. The opponent blocks the hands but misses the kick. Of course, it only works in close.

 

[mook jong man]

One of my Yiquan friends showed me a close-in technique: strike with the hands to distract the opponent from the low kick to the knee. The opponent blocks the hands but misses the kick. Of course, it only works in close.

In Wing Chun we kick and punch at the same time as well.

Regarding the low heel kick to the knee/shin , we have a few jamming techniques to stop it .
But to be perfectly honest , if someone is fast and doesn't telegraph their intentions with their shoulders , then they are going to get you with it.

One defence I use that seems to work better than most is to just shift my leg back a few inches out of range so his kick just misses and then return fire with the same leg using a hook kick to his thigh.

 

[Xue Sheng]

In Wing Chun we kick and punch at the same time as well.

A lot of CMA styles do this, Bagua, Taiji, Xingyi, Changquan, etc.

 

[mook jong man]

A lot of CMA styles do this, Bagua, Taiji, Xingyi, Changquan, etc.

Yes , the reasoning behind it being that you maybe good enough to deal with my hands , but are you good enough to deal with my hands and a leg at the same time.
The training exercise chi gerk develops the sensitivity in the legs needed to attack and defend at close range while the arms are preoccupied with attacking and defending the upper gates