Wing chun footwork

yak sao

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I don't believe WC trains footwork as much as some other CMA styles such as the XingYi, Bagua, or long fist...

Yeah maybe, but keep in mind that WC is a close-range fighting style. When fighting empty hand, the most distance we have to cover is the length of our opponent's kicking leg.
When you add the double knives to the equation then you are covering maybe 10 feet or so as you defend against the long pole.
 

yak sao

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Also, the footwork in those forms is not so different from WT footwork.
The Xing yi pull step is very much like ours and the lively footwork in the bagua set is very reminiscent of the footwork found in the knives.
Add to that the horse, bow, and Cat stance found in the long Pole and the various stepping methods found in the tripodal dummy and you'll see we actually have more in common than not.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Why does WC have to wait until wooden dummy, double knifes, and long pole to start the footwork training? If a WC student just finishes his 3 solo hand forms, will he learn enough footwork? Should a student learn important stuff during day one?
 

yak sao

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Some do wait, but in our particular lineage we learn footwork pretty much from day one coupled with the typical stance training.
I think this is a good balanced approach.
 

Danny T

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Why does WC have to wait until wooden dummy, double knifes, and long pole to start the footwork training? If a WC student just finishes his 3 solo hand forms, will he learn enough footwork? Should a student learn important stuff during day one?
If that is happening, in my experience, it is an instructor or a particular group. In my training and what I instruct footwork is drilled from day 1.
 

wckf92

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Why does WC have to wait until wooden dummy, double knifes, and long pole to start the footwork training? If a WC student just finishes his 3 solo hand forms, will he learn enough footwork? Should a student learn important stuff during day one?

IME, these things (footwork from wm, pole, knives) were began in first day, week, month etc because of their importance.
 

geezer

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Why does WC have to wait until wooden dummy, double knifes, and long pole to start the footwork training? If a WC student just finishes his 3 solo hand forms, will he learn enough footwork? Should a student learn important stuff during day one?

Yes.
 

obi_juan_salami

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You do learn footwork from day one. From the minute you open your stance you are learning footwork. Learning wing chun is a process, a progression. You need a lot of leg strength and correct shape to do foot work. This is acheived through stance training. Then you strengthen the individual components of the foot work in the forms. Only to finally put it all to use and application in the dummy. By this stage the quality or 'end product' should be of a very high quality because you have spent years refining the individual and various components of your footwork before putting it together. If you are someone who thinks that process takes too long.. then i suggest you look into the history and defenition of the term "kung fu".
 

Kung Fu Wang

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You do learn footwork from day one. From the minute you open your stance you are learning footwork.
Stance and foot work are different.

- The stance is how you put weight on both legs.
- The foot work is how to move your feet from point (L1, R1) to point (L2, R2).

The following picture shows the "wheeling step" that you move yourself to be outside of your opponent's attacking path. The "wheeling step" has nothing to do with your weight distribution.


wheeling_step.jpg
 

APL76

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This seems to be the fundamental difference in the way Obijaunsalami and I see the stance compared to how you see it. If all you think the stance is is putting weight on your legs, then that is fundamentally different to how we see it as a developmental tool that establishes a foundation for all of the kung fu that a person will ever do.

If all you think a stance is is putting weight on your legs, then sure, footwork (that is to say stepping etc.) may as well come immediately since it seems you put no developmental value in a stance.

For us however the stance develops all the fundamental attributes that you need to do kung fu, and if you either dont do the necessary stance training, or rush it (which is essentially what you seem to advocate), you cut short the development of those attributes; that is assuming you actually train your stance in a way to develop those attributes in the first place (most people I have seen dont train it in that way, by the way). This is why Obijaunsalami said you are developing your footwork from the very moment you open your stance. It is also why he said that the better your stance training is the higher quality you will get at the outcome.

So, going back to the initial question that started this thread, (paraphrasing here) is there much footwork in wing chun? And the OP noted how, as a beginner he seems to be doing a lot of stance training and not much footwork. And he is doing YKS wing chun (which Obijuansalami and I have done for years).

In the context of YKS wing chun, if you do it the way Sum Nung taught it, you can expect to do NOTHING but stance training intensively for around 4, 5 or 6 months at least. This is because the stance is 1) a developmental tool, and 2) as such lays the foundation for literally everything a person will do in wing chun and so the quality of the stance sets the benchmark for the quality of the wing chun in general.

Yes, in YKS wing chun there is heaps of footwork, it would seem, perhaps more so than many interpretations of YM style; footwork is inseparable from pretty much every aspect of YKS wing chun. So for the OP yes, eventually it is ALL ABOUT the footwork but first comes the stance; so if you are learning YKS wing chun, from Alton Miller, who comes through from Kwok Wan Ping, then you must do adequate stance training or the rest of it will not work. YKS wing chun is fundamentally different from YM style and more difficult (I have learned and teach both so unlike most I actually have a basis for comparison). So I wouldnt worry about not doing footwork as a beginner and doing stance training. That is the correct way to learn it.

To give you an example. I once was having difficulty with my punches (YM style) so I went and asked my Sifu (private student of Yip Chun and later, disciple of Sum Nung), sifu, my punch isnt feeling right, can you see whats wrong with it? He told me to show him and after I did he said, go do more stance training. At the time I didnt understand what the hell my legs (yep, at the time I thought of my stance as my legs only) had to do with my punch. Shortly after that he took me as a private student, I learned YKS style from him the traditional way and did nothing but stance training for about 4 months. Some time after that I was teaching HK style in his class for him and showed some students how to punch, having not done any punches for months. To my astonishment my punch came out faster, smoother with more focus and a lot more relaxed than it ever had before; all from nothing but stance training. I hadnt trained my punch, but I had trained the sh&* out of the foundation on which the punch is based.

That is the difference with the stance as developing the attributes for kung fu, and the stance as simply putting weight on your legs.
 

APL76

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???, I don't see how any of that changes anything I have said? Sure, if all you see the stance as is simply standing around, putting weight on your legs, then a video of some guy simply running along doing some punches may be fine. Simply standing around, and practicing footwork may seem to be completely unrelated; if that's how you see it that's fine by me, I don't care.

If, however, you see the stance as something that develops everything you need to do kung fu then how does what you posted there invalidate that? The way I have described it is how it works in YKS wing chun (and I think its not a forigen concept to many wing chun people and many other martial arts people too). I would hazard a bet that the guy in the photo above would likely agree with my point of view rather than yours.
 

wckf92

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Sure, if all you see the stance as is simply standing around, putting weight on your legs

Guess I've been training my "stance" since about 1 or 2 yrs old!!! hahahahahaha

*I'd like to point out that the second video IMHO is highly contingent to first mastering "stance".

"One must learn to stabilize, before one learns to mobilize".... just sayin.....
 

APL76

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I would have to agree on all three points;.if by training your "stance" you do actually mean your """""stance"""" and not Yi Ji Kim Yeung ma
 

jlq

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APL76,

good description of how classical training is structured.


Unfortunately, nowadays - even in Fatsaan and Gongjaau - this kind of training is very rare, unless the art is taught "inside the family", because it is not commercially viable to have the modern people eating the bitter traditional dish.

No wonder, then, that nowadays in the new generation only fe
 

APL76

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Yeah, while I have never been to china I have a friend who goes there regularly. When hes there he now trains with Sum Nungs elder son, one from his first marriage. When he is back here in Canberra he trains with us. Anyway, he has been all over Guangzhou and HK and so on, seen a huge amount of Wing Chun there, and said that its rare indeed to find people who emphasize foundation training and so on. Its a shame.
 

jlq

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Sum Nungs sons might not be the best go to guys, though for really traditional training. The one you are referring to just opened a sort of promotional office, a very small space, next to the Gongjaau Opera Museum and is heavily into pronoting the style, meaning teaching it to children and for mainstream consumption, which forces any teacher whether he likes it or not to change the training method to appease the masses. Better to go to Pan Chao Sifu, or rather his son as they are not commercial or into spreading the word.
 

jlq

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But you are right... A shame it is indeed that the traditional ways are dying out.
 

APL76

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Sum Nungs sons might not be the best go to guys, though for really traditional training. The one you are referring to just opened a sort of promotional office, a very small space, next to the Gongjaau Opera Museum and is heavily into pronoting the style, meaning teaching it to children and for mainstream consumption, which forces any teacher whether he likes it or not to change the training method to appease the masses. Better to go to Pan Chao Sifu, or rather his son as they are not commercial or into spreading the word.
I don't need to go to Sum Nung's sons for wing chun, my sifu is one of Sum Nung's disciples.
 

jlq

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That is not at all what my post meant to imply...

;)

It was just to point out that even (most of) SN's students nowadays have modified their teachings.

And if one wants to learn the traditional way, it would be better to learn from the Pang family than the more commercially oriented mou goons.

I hope this clariefies the issue.

:)
 
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