Wing Chun and MMA

[Z-Man]

I’ve been grappling for many years and wanted to share some experiences. I was grappling a very high level striker and grappler. He was just about to choke me out from behind, when I accidently poked him in the eye. Of all the years I grappled that was the first time that happened. This accidental poke in the eye totally incapacitated my training partner. He had to stop grappling for about a minute, but thankfully he wasn’t injured at all.

This opened my eyes (no pun intended) that sensitive nerve strikes to the eyes and groin are the great equalizer in a real fight. Of course, I’ve heard about this concept, but never experienced it first hand against a master martial artist.

Wing Chun seems to specialize in these sensitive nerve strikes to the eyes and groin. In the sport of MMA these nerve attacks to the eyes and groin are prohibited. The lack of devastating nerve attacks in MMA takes the true realism out of this competition. Of course if these attacks were allowed, the sport would be too brutal for the general public. Although, some exponents of MMA says that eye and groin strikes are ineffective anyway against a tough opponent. I am guessing in reality if someone can not see or walk well they will not be able to fight.

This reliance on practical sensitive nerve strikes to the eyes and groin is what mainly separates the self-defense based striking arts (wing chun, karate) from the sport based striking arts (thai boxing, western boxing) IMHO. Solar plexus and jaw strikes of course are nerve attacks, but attacking the eyes and groin does not require as much athletic strength.

These are just my thoughts on the subject.

What are your thoughts on the above?

 

[mook jong man]

Who says Wing Chun specialises in strikes to the groin and eyes ?
Wing Chun specialises in generating power from extremely close range.

 

[Tez3]

I’ve been grappling for many years and wanted to share some experiences. I was grappling a very high level striker and grappler. He was just about to choke me out from behind, when I accidently poked him in the eye. Of all the years I grappled that was the first time that happened. This accidental poke in the eye totally incapacitated my training partner. He had to stop grappling for about a minute, but thankfully he wasn’t injured at all.

I'm surprised you haven't seen or had it happen before, it's a fairly common accident.

This opened my eyes (no pun intended) that sensitive nerve strikes to the eyes and groin are the great equalizer in a real fight. Of course, I’ve heard about this concept, but never experienced it first hand against a master martial artist.

Wing Chun seems to specialize in these sensitive nerve strikes to the eyes and groin. In the sport of MMA these nerve attacks to the eyes and groin are prohibited. The lack of devastating nerve attacks in MMA takes the true realism out of this competition. Of course if these attacks were allowed, the sport would be too brutal for the general public. Although, some exponents of MMA says that eye and groin strikes are ineffective anyway against a tough opponent. I am guessing in reality if someone can not see or walk well they will not be able to fight.

The magic word is competition, why would we want 'realism' in a sport? Unless you are a total sadist one doesn't want to cripple your opponent. This just sounds like yet another veiled attack on MMA.

This reliance on practical sensitive nerve strikes to the eyes and groin is what mainly separates the self-defense based striking arts (wing chun, karate) from the sport based striking arts (thai boxing, western boxing) IMHO. Solar plexus and jaw strikes of course are nerve attacks, but attacking the eyes and groin does not require as much athletic strength.

These are just my thoughts on the subject.

What are your thoughts on the above?

My thoughts are that it's another style V style thread.

 

[zepedawingchun]

. . . . .Wing Chun specialises in generating power from extremely close range.

So we can use it aiming for the eyes, throat, solar plexus, and groin.

 

[geezer]

Heck, anybody can practice targeting the eyes, groin, and other sensitive areas that are illegal in sport competition. And I'll bet every cent I have that any MMA fighter worth a damn has dealt with that stuff outside the ring. Just try and imagine someone like Bas Rutan saying "Eye poke? Never thought of that!".

On the other hand, you do make a great point that if sport competition is all you've ever done, you can overlook things like that. Personally, I think it's the surprise factor that debilitated your friend. I had the same thing happen to me once in a high-school wrestling match a zillion years ago. My opponent was much better than I, but when I shot-in he went all weak and wobbly. I took him down and pinned him fast. Only afterwards did it come out that, without realizing it, I had poked him hard in the eye when I threw up my hands in an attempt to distract him as I went for the shoot. So yeah, it can work, but IMHO you can't count on it in a real fight where people are expecting that kind of thing.

 

[Tensei85]

Off track, but I've trained at a MMA gym for a few years in the past.
I've seen 1st hand MMA work on the street, I've watched an MMA guy incapacitate 3 guys at a bar haha good times. So this stuff does work, IMO I think the only difference between Mixed Martial Arts & Traditional Martial Arts is that one holds to more Contemporary approaches while the other still holds to more traditional Philosophy, Culture, Heritage. Haha not saying MMA doesn't have any of those, but really it comes down to how you train. But you can trace all the core structures in MMA to TMA, now they've evolved things in some respects for what they need it to do.

MMA can work in the streets, TMA can work in the ring if you train it that way but in my opinion they are really one in the same. Just one's taken a more modern approach.

So I can't see it being a TMA vs MMA topic, it should be "how to train realistically topic". And I feel a lot of MMA schools do a great job with that, but that's what people are looking for when they go to an MMA gym, whereas in TMA I've actually been to places that would lose students if their training was to arduous or realistic, so keep that in mind they ended up giving in & selling chop suey because that's what the clients wanted to buy into a dillusional view of reality. But then I've seen some TMA guys that could easily deflect anything I had, including take downs which I enjoy btw.

So some guys/girls in TMA suck, & some MMA guys/girls suck that's reality!

Just my opinion, not saying its accurate or even factual just whats on my mind.

Thanks for the advice given above.

 

[Z-Man]

Thank you for your responses, I will keep the comment on “generating power from extremely close range” in mind when I train. Just page through any Wing Chun or JKD book and it will probably be riddled with attacks to the eyes and groin. It is like saying aikido specializes in wrist locks and replying that no aikido blends with an attacker’s energy.

I have trained in both TMA and MMA. I have great respect for both arts. The magic is to compare and contrast for a better understanding. Not to beat down an individual or art.

 

[mook jong man]

How much power do you need to poke someone in the eye or in the throat ? , and why train for years learning how to do it ? , thats something you could teach someone in a few lessons.

As for kicking the groin , yes if the opportunity presents itself we will kick it , but when someone advances towards you with evil intentions the first target he presents will be his knee and shins , kicking these targets is a lot faster and doesn't put the balance too much at risk.

The bread and butter techniques of Wing Chun are the punch and the palm strike , work on generating a lot of power at close range with these tools and you don't need to go poking peoples eyes out.

I get the feeling sometimes that some American Wing Chun seems to be an amalgam of Wing Chun mixed in with a liberal helping of Bruce Lee's JKD theories and techniques like finger jabs to the eyeballs etc.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

To poke someone's eyes, smash their groin and strike a throat, you need no training or skill.

Now, many call the process of repeatedly poking eyes, smashing groins and striking throat Reality Based Self Defense courses.

(Not all, of course, just joking a bit.)

Yes, stuff like eye pokes can be debilitating, IF YOU HAVE NO INTENT TO DO HARM OR KILL.

If you are a really violent person focused and intending to do actual harm on another human being with hate and rage...

it will only piss you off. It might derail you a bit, yet you'll want to keep going instead of going to the ref and taking a breather.

Think about it.

If you're grappling and one of you gets pepper spray on their eyes, they'll stop and scream and squirm.

Yet for Law Enforcement officials in many places, pepper spray is not recommended for truly violent individuals...

cause they keep on coming. With a bit of a disadvantage, yet they keep coming.

I've seen this in huge brawls at several night clubs.

Ask if you want me to write the whole story for your reading pleasure. It was awesomely funny and insane times.

Thus those kings of strikes, while nice to work on and effective in practice, don't translate well against attackers intent on causing serious bodily injury or death upon you.

Hope that helps.

Juan Mercado
A dude from a tropical Island that don't know nothin' about *** beatings, Kung Fu nor MMA...

... even though he's been teachin' and lovin' the stuff for more than 15 years.

 

[vatesi]

I'm sure everyone would love to hear the story if you don't mind typing it out

 

[Steve]

In the documentary, Choke, Yuki Nakai is eye gouged in a fight, goes on to defeat that guy and the next guy (wearing a giant eye bandage) before losing to Rickson Gracie in the final. He is then forced to retire because he could never see correctly out of that eye again.

Point being that there is no such thing as a guaranteed fight ending technique that doesn't kill the opponent. In a school, if I get poked in the eye, I stop and make sure it's okay before continuing. If I get poked in the eye in a situation where I believe I'm fighting for my life, things might go differently.

 

[dungeonworks]

How much power do you need to poke someone in the eye or in the throat ? , and why train for years learning how to do it ? , thats something you could teach someone in a few lessons.

As for kicking the groin , yes if the opportunity presents itself we will kick it , but when someone advances towards you with evil intentions the first target he presents will be his knee and shins , kicking these targets is a lot faster and doesn't put the balance too much at risk.

The bread and butter techniques of Wing Chun are the punch and the palm strike , work on generating a lot of power at close range with these tools and you don't need to go poking peoples eyes out.

I get the feeling sometimes that some American Wing Chun seems to be an amalgam of Wing Chun mixed in with a liberal helping of Bruce Lee's JKD theories and techniques like finger jabs to the eyeballs etc.

I totally agree. The times I have used groin shots in altercations the end result was RARELY what one would expect....what I expected. There is often times a delay or some guys just seem to tough the pain out and hold The Nuggets" after the fight.

Knee's, eyes, and shins? In my experience using them, they worked much faster and with much more effect. I have not been in a street fight since Wing Chun training and my experience regarding this post is prior to martial arts training and some with Karate/kickboxing training....well, dirty kickboxing anyways. :uhyeah:

 

[mook jong man]

I totally agree. The times I have used groin shots in altercations the end result was RARELY what one would expect....what I expected. There is often times a delay or some guys just seem to tough the pain out and hold The Nuggets" after the fight.

Knee's, eyes, and shins? In my experience using them, they worked much faster and with much more effect. I have not been in a street fight since Wing Chun training and my experience regarding this post is prior to martial arts training and some with Karate/kickboxing training....well, dirty kickboxing anyways. :uhyeah:

There is definitely a delay , It seems to take a few seconds to register at least with me anyway , and in that few seconds I could get quite a few punches out.

Also a low heel kick , particularly one aimed directly below the knee cap and slightly to the inside of the shin , well that is instant sharp , walking into the edge of a coffee table type pain.

It also stops the forward momentum of the attacker dead in their tracks and keeps them just out of their punching range.

Whereas a kick to the groin might fold them at the hips , but there can still be a great deal of momentum coming at you for you to absorb back into your stance.

 

[cwk]

A heel or side kick to the liver is also a good stopper. I got punched here once, many moons ago, and it dropped me like a sack of ****. I had blood in my urine for about 2 days afterwards too.

The best angle to kick is in and up under their bottom ribs on the right side of their body. The liver is actually protected by the rib cage for the most part but striking at this angle allows you to hit it.
if you get it right you'll know instantly as your opponent will go down hard with a funny look on his face, followed by a grimace.

 

[Tez3]

A heel or side kick to the liver is also a good stopper. I got punched here once, many moons ago, and it dropped me like a sack of ****. I had blood in my urine for about 2 days afterwards too.

The best angle to kick is in and up under their bottom ribs on the right side of their body. The liver is actually protected by the rib cage for the most part but striking at this angle allows you to hit it.
if you get it right you'll know instantly as your opponent will go down hard with a funny look on his face, followed by a grimace.

It's the worst KO I know, it's truly horrible. It doesn't take much pressure either, a good slap even will do it. I know several fighters that will target the liver shot, nasty!

 

[BloodMoney]

Greetings.

To poke someone's eyes, smash their groin and strike a throat, you need no training or skill.

Unless you dont want to rely on luck, and want to consistently and effectively pull such maneuvers off during high stress situations, or if your opponents are bigger and stronger, or if you are fighting other trained fighters. Then yeah, like any technique I advocate actually practicing it

 

[dungeonworks]

Unless you dont want to rely on luck, and want to consistently and effectively pull such maneuvers off during high stress situations, or if your opponents are bigger and stronger, or if you are fighting other trained fighters. Then yeah, like any technique I advocate actually practicing it

Practicing anything will make you better at it by default. You don't have to be a Martial Arts expert to effectively wallop the nuts, eyes, or throat. You touch any of them and you will get some effect, and untrained people can and do pull it off.

 

[pmosiun1]

I’ve been grappling for many years and wanted to share some experiences. I was grappling a very high level striker and grappler. He was just about to choke me out from behind, when I accidently poked him in the eye. Of all the years I grappled that was the first time that happened. This accidental poke in the eye totally incapacitated my training partner. He had to stop grappling for about a minute, but thankfully he wasn’t injured at all.

This opened my eyes (no pun intended) that sensitive nerve strikes to the eyes and groin are the great equalizer in a real fight. Of course, I’ve heard about this concept, but never experienced it first hand against a master martial artist.

Wing Chun seems to specialize in these sensitive nerve strikes to the eyes and groin. In the sport of MMA these nerve attacks to the eyes and groin are prohibited. The lack of devastating nerve attacks in MMA takes the true realism out of this competition. Of course if these attacks were allowed, the sport would be too brutal for the general public. Although, some exponents of MMA says that eye and groin strikes are ineffective anyway against a tough opponent. I am guessing in reality if someone can not see or walk well they will not be able to fight.

This reliance on practical sensitive nerve strikes to the eyes and groin is what mainly separates the self-defense based striking arts (wing chun, karate) from the sport based striking arts (thai boxing, western boxing) IMHO. Solar plexus and jaw strikes of course are nerve attacks, but attacking the eyes and groin does not require as much athletic strength.

These are just my thoughts on the subject.

What are your thoughts on the above?

A Tired Debate​

I see some of you still don't understand the distinction. The street vs sport, BJJ has rules, grappling should include biting, hair pulling, etc, is a straw man. It's a tired and meaningless debate. Its also the excuse that every master of DEAD martial arts from the traditional schools uses to explain his arts non effectiveness in a full contact environment. So anyone seeking to use this argument should be wary.
Let me be as clear as possible. I will borrow some of Dan Inosanto's terminology here, and yes Mr Inosanto is a Black Belt with the Machados, whom I consider some of the best GRAPPLING coaches in the world. (Try biting Rigan sometime, I worked it with him once and it sucks!).
You need to make a distinction between a "delivery system" and a sporting application of an art. As an example we will use a man I admire very much, Renzo Gracie. Renzo could see a bite, a foul tactic, a version of an armlock, from Silat, or White Crane, or Yellow Monkey Fever, etc etc, and probably be able to INTEGRATE and apply that move very quickly. Why? Because he already has such a strong base on the ground. He understands the positions, and he has a great delivery system. Compare that with say an Aikido stylist. He may see the same application for a bite, or a choke, etc, but never be able to effectively use it. Especially against a wrestler or another groundfighter. Why? Because he doesn't have that delivery system.
Mo Smith could see a punch or a kick or an elbow, from just about any striking art and probably apply it very quickly to his game. Why? Because he has a STRONG BASE in the delivery system of western boxing. Boxing has the body mechanics, footwork, timing, etc, that allow Mo to INTEGRATE those moves.
Randy Couture could see a sweep from say. . Judo, and probably use it right away. Why? Because he has a strong base in wrestling, and Greco. My main job at the SBG is to see that everyone that walks through the door develops that strong base in the delivery systems of stand up, clinch, and ground. Because they have a strong base in BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, etc, DOES NOT therefore mean that they are "Sport Fighters". That's faulty logic and poor assumptions.In fact some SBG Instructors, including myself, spend a large percentage of time teaching law enforcement, and civilian self defense. Many drill daily using "foul tactics". It would be a HUGE mistake to assume that because they are very good at the delivery systems that they are not self defense orientated.
Without a strong base on the ground, on your feet, and in the clinch, you can attend every "streetfighting" seminar in the world. Study every grappling art in existence, and still never be much of a fighter. That's the problem with the JKD Concepts paradigm. Does that mean all JKD Concepts people are like that? Of course not. Some have taken the time, and the pain That's involved in earning that strong base.
I have people walk through my Gym door every week from out of town. They are here to take privates, and many aspire to be SBG Instructors. The first thing they do is roll on the mat, and most cannot hang with the white belts at my Gym, let alone the Blue or Purple belts. Then they box, and often they turn their back, reach out, fold under the pressure of being hit. It's just an environment they are not used to. They go away with a list of things to work on, a true knowledge of where their real skill level is, and hopefully a positive and productive experience. But, they do not go away with Instructors certificates.
In a few cases I have looked online and seen that a Month or so later these same people have traveled to other JKD Instructors and become "certified" Instructors. I think That's fine. But That's not what the SBG is about. Even if someone says that the only goal they have is to teach beginners 'self-defense', they still must OWN a good BASE in stand up, Clinch, and Ground. That doesn't mean we are a SPORT Gym. It just means we have high standards.
Once that BASE is acquired, then an athlete can go on to integrate other moves, or ideas very easily. They will be able to put those moves into CONTEXT because they have a strong base of skill. Without that base people become lost in a classical mess very easily. Led astray very easily, because they just don't understand. A purple belt in BJJ who knows how to bite and gouge eyes is a COMPLETELY different beast from a "streetfighter" who bites and gouges eyes but doesn't have the base in that 'delivery system'. If you want to be a good fighter, and reach your own personal full potential, you MUST have that base.
Also, I do not dismiss the danger of blades. In fact I know just how dangerous they can be, and so does every other SBG Instructor. They part of the curriculum, and they are addressed. But, I am very wary of people who talk about cutting arteries, and stabbing people in the guard, etc. Many times (not always) these people tend to be the kids that got picked on in school, lack a certain sense of self esteem, etc. I believe that people like this can be greatly helped through SPORTS. Whether it's boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, NHB, etc. This type of athletic event can help someone like this gain real self esteem. But too often, instead of going down that route they I see them being drawn into the "streetfighting/ tactical" stuff. And I think this usually just increases there paranoia and fear, and eventually leads to anger.
This is why I think the sports paradigm is much healthier. The weaker members of our society are the ones that can use sports to improve their life the most. True self defense skills like awareness, maturity, lack of substance abuse, firearms, pepper spray,etc, can always be added. And should always be added. But the scared kids that get picked on are best helped through sports, and they are the ones I enjoy teaching the most because I have seen such a productive and great change that sports can bring to them. -Matt (Mono Loco) Thornton

 

[pmosiun1]

The problems with a "streetfighter" mindset​

I'd like to talk about the distinctions between an athletic training model and mindset, and a "streetfighting" model and mindset. And I do believe it's important for a number of reasons to make a certain distinction between the two. That distinction, and the reasons why it's a healthy one to make, are what this thread is about.
Now before anyone uses this post or thread as an opportunity for personal insults; or a fallacious either or argument we need to be very, very clear as to the content of what's being discussed.
When we began talking about differences in approaches to anything there is potential for people to take such discussions on a personal level, due to lack of understanding regarding the conversation, or a previous personal agenda, etc. Nothing in the below written posts is personal, period.
If you DON'T find the distinctions to be true in your own case then there is obviously no reason to view them as personal. And if you DO find that some of the ideas may hit close to home, then it's also a very positive thing, and a chance for learning. So in either case the ideas presented below should be seen as the laying out of a roadmap that is intended to bring positive results into peoples lives. But in either case nothing being written or spoken is about a specific persona, on any level.
Secondly, discussing different mentalities in training and life is never an either or proposition. Although that may seem obvious, many people have trouble with that concept so it's always best to lay it out front of the discussion.
When it comes to "street" training, combatives, or RBSD, there seems to exist a fallacious argument. The old street" versus "sport" training argument. The false premise being it must be one or the other, that the training methods are mutually exclusive.
This is not only an incorrect assumption; it also goes against the long and colorful history of American "combatives" or "self defense" Instructors, of previous eras. A brief look into their backgrounds, and minimum amount of research will tell the tale.
In addition, anyone with even a minor bit of information about SBGi knows we offer many RBSD programs. Including programs for Law Enforcement, and including all possible "foul" tactics, and their functional counters. So again, to suggest anything written below paints ALL Instructors who teach RBSD in a particular light is simply not logical, nor factual.
Finally, the politics and gossip of Martial Arts holds zero interest for me, or I think anyone in our Organization. But if you do have any personal issues, feel free to contact me direct, or in person. It's the approach I take, and the one that is always the most appropriate. As for discussions online, they should always be kept to training methods and ideas. Now there are two separate issues with reality based self defense.
The first is functionality. And as people will be theoretically relying on the information and training offered to save their life, or the lives of others, this point is critical. There are a ton myths offered when it comes to self defense and 'streetfighting'. Some of these seem harmless, and may be when it's simply two adolescents or grown men getting together to click sticks, or memorize patterns.
But when it comes to people who may actually need to use such information, police officers, etc, in order to be able to go home to their family safely at night, such misinformation, and perpetuation of myths can be deadly. So functionality in what is being taught is critical in RBSD.
When it comes to weapons this was addressed to a degree in the previous posts here:
Regards the stick fighting, to actually be able to fight with a stick one would have to start by throwing out the majority of the "Kali" that is typically taught, and almost all the 'drills', which are little more then two man Kata which teach one what not to do. And even then, left with functional, powerful strikes, and realistic methods of defense, the ground will still often occur, and ko's will not always be easy.
As far as defending against a knife, again it can be, and is done. But one would have to throw out the majority of the "Kali" empty hand tapi-tapi type drills taught, and go to a control position such as offered by Karl in the STAB program, Jerry with the RedZone, and Burton's two on 1 baseball grip variations.
Coincidentally I had a conversation yesterday regarding a police officer who had been stabbed multiple times by large mental patient on a call a few days ago. Apparently the officer is ok, but he was surprised to relate that he didn't realize his opponent even had a knife until he had been stuck several times, because to him at that time it felt like 'a minor strike'. That seems to be fairly typical. It also has to be why they attack the way they do with a shank in prison. . .having realized this reality a LONG time ago.
On a positive note that department will now be working STAB with Paul Sharp.
In Jerry Wetzel's Red Zone video there is a great section where Jerry's wife, who is a practicing MD, goes into detail regarding the bodies actual process for going into shock. And much of the mythology of knife fighting is cleared up there as well. I'd highly recommend that video for anyone serious on this subject.
Another good example that clearly demonstrates these ideas are written in our street vs sports section here, on the website.
"One happened about a year ago, I'm walking up to a father/son domestic when the son steps out onto the porch where dad is sitting on the stoop and hits dad full tilt with a golf club dead on in the throat. Dad does a weird squeal and jumps up, pulls knife and goes after the kid.
What was that acronym about throat-eyes-solar plexus-nads-knees?
Somebody should have told those guy's when you get hit in a pressure point you go down no questions asked...."
There are many first hand experienced related such as this, elsewhere on our website.
So it's obvious that there is a lot of mythology when it comes to RBSD, particularly (but not exclusive to) the JKD family. And although it may seem harmless enough, when it comes to serious issues, such as Law Enforcement or personal self defense, it's anything but harmless.
However, there is another, deeper, issue I would like to talk about that I feel is even more important when it comes to this subject.
The most important point in my opinion is the mind set that exists behind the eyes of someone who finds themselves attracted to the entire "streetfighting", biting, killer instinct, paradigm that exists, and is marketed to with some instructors. If one looks honestly at it then it becomes pretty obvious that it is really about fear, paranoia, insecurity, and personal guilt.
What does that statement mean?
It's very simple. If you market yourself, your school, or your products as a "streetfighting" system, then a certain group of individuals will find themselves drawn to that product for a variety of reasons. Many of which are unhealthy.
Does that sentence mean all Instructors who teach such things are filled with fear, paranoia, insecurity, and personal guilt!?
Of course not.
Does that mean that ALL RBSD schools cater to such cliental?
Of course not.
Does that mean everyone drawn to such marketing is similar to the people described above?
Of course not.
Let me insert a section of an article by me that was written for realfighting.com on this very subject that I believe explains what the above sentence means very clearly.
(Psychological fear is a completely different animal, and sadly it is incredibly common within the "combatives", or modern self-defense crowds. Psychological fear is actually a form of paranoia, and it's created by one's internal fears of inadequacy on either a physical, emotional, or mental level.
When a male (in particular) thinks himself to be inadequate there is a strong feeling of sadness and anger. And just as aggression is the other side of the same coin as fear, sadness is the other side of the same coin as anger. If one doesn't address this internal sadness in a very real way then it will often manifest itself in the form of anger. I think as males we are more prone to adopt and embrace the anger, at least within our public persona, as opposed to the sadness, because for some misguided reason we have been taught that anger is more "masculine" then it's equal, sadness.
One would think that by training in "street" orientated martial arts, or combatives that emphasize the self defense aspects of martial arts, to the exclusion of what they deem to be "sports" training, that these types of individuals would gain more confidence, more peace, more happiness, and become more comfortable within them as their skills at 'self-defense' grew. Unfortunately, it has been my experience that the opposite seems to be true. Individuals that come to strictly "street" orientated martial arts, that were already prone to feelings of inadequacy, shame, physiological fear, and paranoia tend to have those qualities magnified by such training, rather then eased.
I wouldn't ask anyone to take my word for it with that assessment. Instead I would suggest one visit the nearest "mercenary" convention, combatives or "street" martial arts forums, or speak with these individuals in person. This sadness, anger, and immense fear is palpable when you are forced to spend anytime around these types of individuals. Try reading the posts at the "street" forums. Many tend to read like angry notes from disgruntled 13-year-old boys. There is talk of "tearing out the mo-fo's eyes", biting, and various vicious things that can be done to the attackers. The posts speak to an intense anger and fear in the writers, and sadly, the Instructors of such curriculums cater to this need by exploiting their target audiences obvious weakness, and emotional frailty.
These same people could begin to realize a much deeper sense of peace, well being, and level of personal safety if they were instead steered away from the geeky-ness of the combatives crowd and into a more contact orientated, healthy, and sane sports environment, with "alive-arts" such as boxing, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling, Muay thai, judo, and other "sports" systems. In that type of "alive-training" they will not only gain real skill within a particular delivery system of fighting, they will also achieve a higher level of personal conditioning, become used to a higher level of contact, understand exactly what an aggressive, resisting attacker feels like, and learn to perform under a certain amount of stress. They will also gain a real sense of peace that comes with understanding how to actually move the human body in effective ways against aggressive and dangerous attackers.)
Now, does that above set of paragraphs mean that Matt Thornton is saying ALL RBSD Instructors are doing a disservice?
No, of course not.
Does that above set of paragraphs mean that Matt Thornton doesn't believe that "When your life is in jeopardy most tend to resort to the foul tactics if it determines life or death or just plain survival." .
Of course not!
As stated above we have a heavy curriculum of RBSD, and LE training within our own organization. Which covers the gamut of all 'foul' tactics, as well as their counters. And as stated at the top of this thread, when it comes to real life self defense, FUNCTIONALITY is more important to us then anything else. Anyone who has attended any of the self defense training courses, or Law Enforcement program can testify to the functional nature, and mandatory testing of all our tactics, techniques, and delivery systems. It's not open to speculation.
So what's the point of bringing this subject up?
Simple, because I have found that the same types of people who (may often) be drawn to more violent, "streetfighting" type images, will actually make great leaps in personal development and well being when they switch to a healthier athletic format, and simply let go of the whole 'killer' instinct, bite, kill 'image/mentality'.
I remember a seminar Years ago where Rickson Gracie was asked this exact same thing about eye gouging and the "street". He related that although he had to fight in the street and defend himself many times as he was growing up in Brazil, that even thinking about gouging peoples eyeballs, or biting them, is not something he would ever want to start doing. The thought itself is unhealthy to a human, and Jiu-Jitsu is supposed to be about health and well being.
I couldn't agree more.
I am also sometimes asked by RBSD Instructors why we don't place a heavy emphasis on advertising the "streetfighting", or RBSD aspects of what we do, if in deed we do train this way at our Gyms. (The fact that we do train for self defense becomes self evident to anyone who ever trains at any of our Gyms) . The answer is we do market that way when it's appropriate, but we choose not to emphasize that aspect to the public at large for the reasons listed in this article.
The athletic mentality, method, and mindset, is HEALTHIER for all human beings. And it's also more functional on a very practical level. It's healthier for adults, it's better for children, and it's just better for human beings in general.
Especially in terms of mental well being.
And this is why we steer people into that area whenever possible.
Cheers. - Matt Thornton

 

[BloodMoney]

Practicing anything will make you better at it by default.

Yeah thats kinda my point.

-and untrained people can and do pull it off.

But not as good as trained people. Which is kinda my point.

I think people forget that punching someone in the throat and punching someone in the face are really the same thing: a punch. So those that say theres no point to training to punch to the throat are basically saying theres no point to training the accuracy of your punch. Which I completely disagree with.

Kicking to the groin is the same. Its harder to kick someone in the groin than it is to kick the shin of their forward leg, yet we Chunners practice the mid heel kick a lot. Any thug can kick you in the shin, so whats the point of training? That argument just doesnt work for me. I train to be better at striking the sensitive center line of my opponent, its that simple. The more you train the more accurate you get. Any noob can throw a punch yes, but not all of them can consistently punch many times a second and accurately strike the adams apple, while not taking any incoming hits.