Will XingYi Quan confuse / conflict with my Wing Chun?

[Argus]

Hi guys. It's been a really long time since I posted here.

Since moving to Tokyo, I have not yet found a good Wing Chun school that I'd like to attend. I would like to at some point continue my training in Wing Chun though.

In my search for a school that suits me, I thought I might cast my net a bit wider and look at other Chinese Martial Arts too. Of those, XingYi seems the most straight forward and appealing to me, being similar in many ways to Wing Chun in its direct and mostly linear nature. More over, I've had the chance to cross hands with a XingYi practitioner before, and really liked what I saw and felt.

But, my question is: can Xing Yi build upon a Wing Chun base, or will it just conflict with and confuse it?

I've noticed that, while many people train simultaneously arts like XingYi, Bagua, CLF, and TaiChi, most Wing Chun guys do not train other Chinese Arts, and I have to wonder why this is. I'd like to hear from any Wing Chun guys who have also done XingYi, or XingYi guys who have done Wing Chun about your experiences in this regard.

 

[Svarog]

Hi guys. It's been a really long time since I posted here.

Since moving to Tokyo, I have not yet found a good Wing Chun school that I'd like to attend. I would like to at some point continue my training in Wing Chun though.

In my search for a school that suits me, I thought I might cast my net a bit wider and look at other Chinese Martial Arts too. Of those, XingYi seems the most straight forward and appealing to me, being similar in many ways to Wing Chun in its direct and mostly linear nature. More over, I've had the chance to cross hands with a XingYi practitioner before, and really liked what I saw and felt.

But, my question is: can Xing Yi build upon a Wing Chun base, or will it just conflict with and confuse it?

I've noticed that, while many people train simultaneously arts like XingYi, Bagua, CLF, and TaiChi, most Wing Chun guys do not train other Chinese Arts, and I have to wonder why this is. I'd like to hear from any Wing Chun guys who have also done XingYi, or XingYi guys who have done Wing Chun about your experiences in this regard.

There should be Yuen Kai San style Wing Chun in Tokyo, it is a good style, maybe you can try there. If you decide to learn other style I strongly support that. I practice Wing Chun ,White Crane and Bajiquan. Maybe you will have some trouble at beginning, but in time different styles will open completely new ways of understanding and using your own body. Styles I am practicing naturally fused together in application although I practice those styles separately in every aspect besides sparring. When reflexes take over, best technique for certain situation will be naturally chosen. Each style has some things better than others so ... it is good to know more than one style. My question is, why do you insist on Chinese styles. While in Tokyo, why not learn some Japanese style, there is no better place for that

 

[Argus]

There should be Yuen Kai San style Wing Chun in Tokyo, it is a good style, maybe you can try there. If you decide to learn other style I strongly support that. I practice Wing Chun ,White Crane and Bajiquan. Maybe you will have some trouble at beginning, but in time different styles will open completely new ways of understanding and using your own body. Styles I am practicing naturally fused together in application although I practice those styles separately in every aspect besides sparring. When reflexes take over, best technique for certain situation will be naturally chosen. Each style has some things better than others so ... it is good to know more than one style. My question is, why do you insist on Chinese styles. While in Tokyo, why not learn some Japanese style, there is no better place for that

Thanks! I will look into the Yuen Kai San school. I think I was a bit off put by their website, but I shouldn't judge until I go there and see in person I guess!

Another school that I found teaches Taichi, Xingyi, and Bagua, hence my question!

I am definitely open to a Japanese art as well, I just figured:
1. I already have a good foundation in Wing Chun and would like to build on and continue with that (and/or something very similar)
2. The Japanese arts that I am most interested in would be older Koryuu type arts, which require a lot of commitment I hear. I'd love to train them, but am not sure how much I can commit due to my work, and the possibility that I may move after a few years.
3. I have bad tendons in my wrists/forearms due to repetitive strain injury, which makes training many Japanese grappling arts difficult. I did Aikido for a while and it was just too much strain on my tendons. Even FMA is a bit difficult for me due to the disarms, wristlocks, and strain on the wrist that comes with single-handed weapons. Wing Chun and similar striking centric arts don't seem to bother it much though.

I guess the only real way to find out is to try it. I found doing FMA and Wing Chun at the same time a bit confusing, but also eye-opening. I think I did not get far enough with FMA to overcome the initial "trouble at the beginning" as you mention.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hi guys. It's been a really long time since I posted here.

Since moving to Tokyo, I have not yet found a good Wing Chun school that I'd like to attend. I would like to at some point continue my training in Wing Chun though.

In my search for a school that suits me, I thought I might cast my net a bit wider and look at other Chinese Martial Arts too. Of those, XingYi seems the most straight forward and appealing to me, being similar in many ways to Wing Chun in its direct and mostly linear nature. More over, I've had the chance to cross hands with a XingYi practitioner before, and really liked what I saw and felt.

But, my question is: can Xing Yi build upon a Wing Chun base, or will it just conflict with and confuse it?

I've noticed that, while many people train simultaneously arts like XingYi, Bagua, CLF, and TaiChi, most Wing Chun guys do not train other Chinese Arts, and I have to wonder why this is. I'd like to hear from any Wing Chun guys who have also done XingYi, or XingYi guys who have done Wing Chun about your experiences in this regard.

I've trained both, more Xingyi than Wing Chun. They have similarities but they are not the same. All I can say, is based on my experience, it made no difference in the forms. It did make a difference in application. I also hacve done Taijiquan for a very long time and no matter what I did in Wing Chun, all my attacks were Xingyi and all my defense was tiaji. But then I did Xingyi and taiji before wing chun and I never trained wing chun beyond Sil lum tao.

Crossing hands, have done a lot with wing chun guys, and it was awesome and I learned a lot doing that, but they were doing Chi Sao and I was doing push hands, both Taijiquan and xingyiquan (Xingyi being more aggressive). And I could be wrong, due to my lack of time in Wing Chun, but there appears to me considerably more Qinna and Shuaijiao in both taijiquan and xingyiquan.

But take this for what it is worth, Xingyiquan is by far my favorite martial art

 

[Argus]

I've trained both, more Xingyi than Wing Chun. They have similarities but they are not the same. All I can say, is based on my experience, it made no difference in the forms. It did make a difference in application. I also hacve done Taijiquan for a very long time and no matter what I did in Wing Chun, all my attacks were Xingyi and all my defense was tiaji. But then I did Xingyi and taiji before wing chun and I never trained wing chun beyond Sil lum tao.

Crossing hands, have done a lot with wing chun guys, and it was awesome and I learned a lot doing that, but they were doing Chi Sao and I was doing push hands, both Taijiquan and xingyiquan (Xingyi being more aggressive). And I could be wrong, due to my lack of time in Wing Chun, but there appears to me considerably more Qinna and Shuaijiao in both taijiquan and xingyiquan.

But take this for what it is worth, Xingyiquan is by far my favorite martial art

Thanks! I was hoping to get your take because I know you're a long time Xingyi guy doing Wing Chun now.

I guess it will take some time to "internalize" a new art to the point that it comes out naturally under any kind of pressure, and I'm sure that is a slow and gradual process. I'm sure my Taichi / Xingyi will look much weirder with Wing Chun mixed in than vice versa! lol

But, in any case, I guess the better question to ask is if I can actually find a good teacher.

In an initial search I found this school: Tai Chi Chuan(T'ai-Chi Ch'uan) Tokyo Shibuya

I called up, and apparently they start off teaching Tai Chi, and teach Xingyi and Bagua to more advanced students.

Now, my dilemma is: I don't know what "good/real/authentic" Taichi and Xingyi look like. I don't mean that in a loaded way, and I know there are probably a lot of opinions on the subject. By "good/real/authentic" I just mean "basically decent / real," whatever that is.

I'm not sure how to ask this in a polite way that doesn't venture into fraud busting, but, I'll ask it this way:
I have no interest in Wushu or delusional chi-blasting magic sort of stuff, and want to study a legitimate, martial lineage.
Does this look like it would fit the bill, or should I be concerned/skeptical? Does it look like some place you would consider training, or would you rule it out immediately?

They have some kind of lineage listed here that I don't understand:

Taichi / English page, with some kind of lineage shown:
Tai Chi Chuan(T'ai-Chi Ch'uan) as a Chinese Martial Art in Tokyo

Xingyi / Englishpage, with some kind of lineage shown:
Hsing-I Chuan (Xing-Yi) Tokyo

I don't know anything about the lineage they claim, but some of the videos on this page make me super skeptical and raise some red flags, like the one's where he's sending some guy flying, who is obviously over reacting. He is at least touching him and displays some small movement, granted, but it makes me highly skeptical:
Master Hidemine Jibiki

There do seem to be other teachers. I have no idea from their forms if what they're doing is good or not:
Jibiki Hiroko
Master Wang Fu Lai
Master Huang Su Chun

Sorry for all the specific questions, but I wanted a take on it from some knowledgeable whom I trust, given that I have no real knowledge or experience in these arts.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I should clarify, I am not doing Wing Chun and it is very likely that my Wing Chun days and, sadly, my xingyiquan days, are behind me. Currently the only thing I do is a little Sun Taijiquan due to complications from knee surgery. I cannot even do traditional Yang at the moment.

Taiji first, then xingyi and Bagua, that seems a bit backwards IMO. Although order does not really matter and learning all 3 is not necessary. However, if you look at Sun Lutang, he learned Xingyiquan, then Baguazhang and then Taijiquan. And if you ask someone like my Yang Taiji shifu, Xingyi is low lever, Bagua is good, but taiji is best and you do not need to learn all three. But all talk of levels aside, you do not need all 3. To take if further I feel to really learn Bagauzhang all you should learn is baguazhang, but the same can be said of taijiquan as well. But both take longer to learn than Xingyiquan. But don’t let. that fool you, to really learn all the nuances of xingyi, like bagua and taiji, can take a life time.

Good/Authentic. Lineage can show authenticity, if it is an authentic lineage. Good, lineage does not necessarily show good or bad. It all comes down to who is teaching you, not so much who taught the teacher.

Good example of Xingyiquan can be seem on YouTube, look for Hai Yang

Also Xingyi and Taijiquan from Liang Shouyu

Depending on style, Taijiquan, Tung Hu Ling, Tung Kai Yang, Eddie Wu, Chen Zhenglei, Chen Xiaowng, Cheng Manching

Bagua you can look at Liu Jing Ru and Hai Yang (you can alss look at him for Chen Taijiquan)
Bagua has multiple style

lineages of the links.

taikyokuken, massive gaps in the taijiquan lineage that make it rather unclear

his Xingyi lineage is hard to follow because he is not using names in pinyin. But I think Chang Chao-tung is Zhang Zhadong and Wang Hsiang-Chai is Wang Xiangzhai and you can find info on both on the internet. Note: Wang Xiangzhai was a Xingyiquan guy, but he is the founder of Yiquan/Dachengquan

 

[Xue Sheng]

 

[ShortBridge]

I have trained in a few other Chinese systems (limited training). I think that in general, other southern short bridge systems like Southern Mantis and Crane systems, maybe White Eyebrow overlap more with Wing Chun than systems like Choy Li fut. There is some belief that Bagua has some "engine" type relevance to Wing Chun. I haven't ever explored that, but know someone who has.

As for Japanese systems, I think most karate seems fairly contrary to Wing Chun. It might be great to study it in Japan, but I think it takes you away from Wing Chun if that's important to you.

If I found myself in Japan for a while, I might consider Judo or whatever JuJitsu you can find. I think those things actually match Wing Chun better than other striking systems from a principles standpoint and will conflict less and integrate better with Wing Chun, should you return to and stick with it.

But, like looking for training anywhere else, it really comes down to what is available near you and how you feel about the people teaching it and how they go about it. Tough to decide based on websites and research. You can narrow it down, but next level is contact, observation and maybe trial classes.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hi guys. It's been a really long time since I posted here.

Since moving to Tokyo, I have not yet found a good Wing Chun school that I'd like to attend. I would like to at some point continue my training in Wing Chun though.

In my search for a school that suits me, I thought I might cast my net a bit wider and look at other Chinese Martial Arts too. Of those, XingYi seems the most straight forward and appealing to me, being similar in many ways to Wing Chun in its direct and mostly linear nature. More over, I've had the chance to cross hands with a XingYi practitioner before, and really liked what I saw and felt.

But, my question is: can Xing Yi build upon a Wing Chun base, or will it just conflict with and confuse it?

I've noticed that, while many people train simultaneously arts like XingYi, Bagua, CLF, and TaiChi, most Wing Chun guys do not train other Chinese Arts, and I have to wonder why this is. I'd like to hear from any Wing Chun guys who have also done XingYi, or XingYi guys who have done Wing Chun about your experiences in this regard.

I think that if you are in a new environment where you cannot train in what you had been training, but find yourself with opportunities to train in something new in which you have a genuine interest, then by all means do it.

It is a very real possibility that the new system will interfere or conflict with the methods of your previous system. You may find that you can successfully compartmentalize them and continue to train both, or that you cannot. You may find that the conflicts make it impossible to continue to practice both. You may find that ultimately you need to chose one over the other. You may chose your previous method or you may abandon that and stay with the new method.

Any of these possibilities are perfectly ok. It is good to train in multiple systems, with the ultimate goal to find the system that is best for you, to which you can fully commit. This process may take some years and you may switch from one system to another more than once, before you find the best system for you. But it begins by walking in the door and giving it a try. In the meantime, the breadth of knowledge in multiple systems gives you an education with which you can make educated decisions, and have some understanding of how different methods go about their training. That can only be useful.

 

[greytowhite]

Were I in Tokyo I'd be seeking out a few people in Japan. Ark did Xingyi and Taiji before learning some Daito-ryu and Yanagi Shingan-ryu and synthesizing his own system. Hidetoshi Mitsuoka is a martial arts genius and also preserves some major Reiki and Shingon esoteric knowledge - he's the current Japanese representative of Han Family Yiquan. Daigo Iyoku is the top disciple of Zou Shuxian and preserves her internal gong fu in full including Liuhebafa.

Ark Minoru

Aunkai Tokyo – Aunkai Honbu Tokyo

www.aunkai-tokyo.jp

Mitsuoka Sensei

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Daigo Iyoku

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[Koryuhoka]

Arts do not get confused. They just become part of your skill-set, providing you spend extensive amounts of time training in them. If you are new to martial arts, stick with one until you have developed good foundation, understanding of the mechanics of the art and its use. After that, you can go train in something else.

 

[letsplaygames]

Having practiced Xingiquan since 1983 i.e. Hebei Orthodox.

A couple of questions ...

Does your Wing Chun function in the half beats? .. Example "1 and 2 ". People jab on 1 then cross on 2.

Xingiquan exists in the "and" timing.

Rise on 1, Drill on "and" & Fall on 2. Every one of the Five Elements focuses on this "timing" principle. There are no blocks in Xingyiquan (not in the traditional sense...) A Xingyiquan block is to expand into the oncoming opponent's angle of his attack, uses this expansion much like a grappler clinching to shut down strikes. Jamming the angle, . it's this function that is often mistook by unlearned that confuses Xingiquan methods as having some sort of Tuishou push hands methodology... It does NOT.

Does your WC use "Shen Fa" (i.e. motion of one's body) to amplify your power by combining your structure/frame with your weight in motion?

The Xingyiquan way "a 50 lbs bag of rice being thrown at you at 25mph " Most who are physically able can hold a 50 lbs of rice. Few can catch or hold the 50lbs bag of rice hurdled at them at 25mph...

The above is 75% Xingyiquan Shenfa methodology. Xingiquan uses the frame or structure of the body like a spear, to be thrust through the opponent. The various stepping methods of Xinyiquan exemplify this... putting your weight behind a punch.... NOT a special concept in Martial arts right? .. But... no modern martial art does it quite like Xinyiquan. Small horizontal hip movement with explosive (fajin) projection the body forward, very different than the modern traditional way that takes its queue from Western Boxing or other modern pugilistic arts.

Best way I can describe the internal mechanics of a typical Xingiquan strike... the feeling of holding a spear, putting the point on target and thrusting the point as well as whole body forward explosively into the opponent, in a controlled free falling motion where the lead leg catches me before I fall.

Of course there is the standard methods of externally (weijia quan fa) striking... but the above floats all through them to be used intermittingly .

It's Projection of your whole body mass in a vertical forward vector.

If your WC does the above ... then sure do both.


(that's just striking I'm talking about... I don't know if WC has Liao Jiao, (throws) or Chin na (joint locks, strangulation techniques) or Di Fa (various kicking methods) that are unique to Xingyiquan.

From what I usually see on the internet) Most people who currently are doing Xingiquan in truth are not... IMO they wouldn't recognize the actual practical Xingiquan that is done with prowess. They would probably think it was a form of "old school" 1800 western bareknuckle pugilism. They are akin to someone who buys a race car but never has driven it on a track, let alone actually race with it.

Some are even worse... oblivious that the car they posses has NO engine... content they are just standing next to it playing the part of race car driver.

I see that with a lot of TCMA Weijia & Neijia)

That said.... No diss on any of them when it comes to Xingiquan...

The Shen fa of Xingiquan is very old: From a time pre gun powder, pre western boxing influence, pre Modern Japanese karate/TDK influence, pre Muai Thai Boxing influence... I only see similar shenfa in Quanfa/WuShu that is as old as Xingiquan is... or Japanese koru bujustu (traditional Samurai Arts stemming from a similar period)

Like philosophy, i.e Plato, Aristotle, Locke, Hobbs etc... If you study Xingiquan by yourself you will pick up a lot, but you will miss a lot too. One really have to be taught Xingiquan by someone who actually knows it, that can actually use it with prowess. (I don't see that often)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have just talked to someone on the phone. He said that the XingYi is a "lazy people MA" because not much kick. For the energy that I do 1 long fist form, I can do 10 XingYi forms and still not feeling tired. I can drill 1000 Pi Quan non-stop (about 45 minutes).

When I do XingYi, I feel that I'm resting and not training.

 

[letsplaygames]

I have just talked to someone on the phone. He said that the XingYi is a "lazy people MA" because not much kick.

Not Much kick?
what?

wai baitui (outside crescent kick)
lihetui (inside crescent kick)
tantui (instep or toe kick)
dengtui (heel kick)
cetantui (round kick)
cechuaitui (side kick)
Xiding (knee)
Saotui (sweep/reaps)
Chongya tui (stepping/stamping kick)
Chuaitui (cut kicks)
juezitui (digging kick)
di chuaitui (ground kicks)
tiao tantui (jumping spring kicks)
tiao dengtui (jumping heel kicks)

Lazy man's art?

There is something to Xingiquan when it comes to organic Kinesthetic movement. (Yet... it's not unique when it comes to old traditional martial arts) When you look at some of these old traditional arts you see things that sometimes make you say ??? Why are they doing it that way....???

Some of the kicking or striking as an example.

They knew that there were (and still are!!!) techniques that cheat the physiology of the human body, & in the short term were (and still are!!!) effective, but in the long term.... cause detrimental effects (torn rotator cuffs, torn medial tendons of the knee etc. They also (from decades of study) found that these "short cuts" are eventually caught up to with experience using said organic kinesthetic movements.

**There was no orthopedic surgeon to repair torn medial tendons when many of these arts were conceived. I see a lot of martial artist in their 40s and 50s that have had rotator cuff and medial tendon knee surgery.

If you made your living as a soldier or caravan escort and you suffered a torn rotator cuff... you retired.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not Much kick?
what?

wai baitui (outside crescent kick)
lihetui (inside crescent kick)
tantui (instep or toe kick)
dengtui (heel kick)
cetantui (round kick)
cechuaitui (side kick)
Xiding (knee)
Saotui (sweep/reaps)
Chongya tui (stepping/stamping kick)
Chuaitui (cut kicks)
juezitui (digging kick)
di chuaitui (ground kicks)
tiao tantui (jumping spring kicks)
tiao dengtui (jumping heel kicks)

Lazy man's art?

There is something to Xingiquan when it comes to organic Kinesthetic movement. (Yet... it's not unique when it comes to old traditional martial arts) When you look at some of these old traditional arts you see things that sometimes make you say ??? Why are they doing it that way....???

Some of the kicking or striking as an example.

They knew that there were (and still are!!!) techniques that cheat the physiology of the human body, & in the short term were (and still are!!!) effective, but in the long term.... cause detrimental effects (torn rotator cuffs, torn medial tendons of the knee etc. They also (from decades of study) found that these "short cuts" are eventually caught up to with experience using said organic kinesthetic movements.

**There was no orthopedic surgeon to repair torn medial tendons when many of these arts were conceived. I see a lot of martial artist in their 40s and 50s that have had rotator cuff and medial tendon knee surgery.

If you made your living as a soldier or caravan escort and you suffered a torn rotator cuff... you retired.

Do you have any video that show those kicks? Besides the front kick, I have never seen any Xing Yi people doing those other kicks.

 

[Xue Sheng]

For the record, I only trained 5 elements, (Hebei, Shang [which is basically Hebei] and briefly Wudang) and I would not call it a lazy mans arts at all. In five elements, although I no longer do train it, there are at least 3 kicks i know of, not to mention all of the strikes, qinna and Shuaijiao. Go to 12 animals I know there are many more and I suspect the same in Bashi

 

[Flying Crane]

There is something to be said about getting lots of mileage out of less material. Any method is lazy if you let yourself be lazy in your training. Less material? Do more of it, and figure out how to apply it creatively. Train hard. Push yourself.

Whether or not your method has lots or few or zero kicks, in no way determines “laziness.” Seriously, how many kicks do you think are really necessary? For some people, the answer is zero. My personal opinion: a very small number of types of kicks are a good idea to train diligently. But the wide variety of kicks and variations on kicks that you see in a method like Tae Kwon Do, strictly speaking are not necessary in order to be an effective fighter.

I am surprised this needs to be said.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Seriously, how many kicks do you think are really necessary? For some people, the answer is zero.

I like the 3-2 ratio. If I punch 300 times, I like to kick 200 times. If I don't kick, I will feel that my "single leg balance" training is missing. The way that I look at this is if I can still stand on one leg when I'm 90, my chance of falling will be less. To me the kicking (or leg skill) training is a health concern. It's no longer a combat concern.

When my teacher was 72, he could still touched his hand on the ground when he remained single leg balance. I also want to maintain that ability as long as I can.

This old man "马英图 Ma Yin-Tu" (he taught my teacher the Baji system) could have this kind of balance and flexibility during his old age. All these require a lot of maintenance. If those old masters could maintain their abilities during their old age. I want to be able to maintain my ability too.

 

[Flying Crane]

I like the 3-2 ratio. If I punch 300 times, I like to kick 200 times. If I don't kick, I will feel that my "single leg balance" training is missing. The way that I look at this is if I can still stand on one leg when I'm 90, my chance of falling will be less. To me the kicking (or leg skill) training is a health concern. It's no longer a combat concern.

When my teacher was 72, he could still touched his hand on the ground when he remained single leg balance. I also want to maintain that ability as long as I can.

View attachment 27624

This old man "马英图 Ma Yin-Tu" (he taught my teacher the Baji system) could have this kind of balance and flexibility during his old age. All these require a lot of maintenance. If those old masters could maintain their abilities during their old age. I want to be able to maintain my ability too.

View attachment 27625

These are all legitimate reasons for wanting to include kicking in your training. But that is a personal opinion and not a yardstick with which to measure the quality of a martial system.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

These are all legitimate reasons for wanting to include kicking in your training. But that is a personal opinion and not a yardstick with which to measure the quality of a martial system.

I don't know other people's opinions. I can only express my own opinion.