Will Wonders Never Cease?

[Ken Morgan]

Well with the US being so much larger than either Canada or the UK, there are a lot more crazies floating to the top…. ;-)

The systems are different. In the Parliamentary system enjoyed by Canada and the UK, there are serious limits set on and enforced on election spending, such limits don’t exist in the US. It’s a wild west on fundraising and spending, as a result candidates and subsequent politicians are beholden to their donors. They say they’re not, but come on.

The Christian right is larger and louder in the US then in either Canada or the UK.

The cold war fueled serious anti-communist/socialist feelings in the US, these feelings have never gone away, in direct contrast to the pure libertarianism, capitalist, direct pure democracy, as an ideal held aloft by the right in the US.

I also get the feeling that party discipline is stronger in Canada and the UK.

I don’t think the US right is anymore crazy than any other countries right, just there are more of them, they are loud and they have the money to get their messaging out.

 

[Sukerkin]

How are there two sets of laws?

Have you really never heard of that phrase? It's as common as "Noone Ever Got Rich Working for a Living"; that one is unknown over the other side of the Atlantic too I was surprised to learn the other year.

As to the first part of your post there, I get the feeling I am trying to explain colour to a blind man when it comes to class discrimination and. no disrespect intended because I know you're interested rather than just being contrary, I'm not going to delve into it any further as I'll just get even more annoyed about the whole thing than I am already (got my annual 'pay cut' through the post this morning (that's what happens when you don't have a union by the way)). I guess you just have to live under it to understand it - it's a subtle maze of social prejudice and invisible glass walls and ceilings that was starting to go away but then Maggie set things in motion that brought them back up to strength again.

 

[Tez3]

Well, I do take issue with many Socialist and socialist ideas. After all:
“Do you have a right to somebody else’s property? No, not even if the government is giving it to you.” (Michael Badnarik)
is an idea I subscribe to.


But not all of them mind you. Some are useful in a modern society, in moderation.

That's not the real socialism however. Socialism isn't about taking others property, communism is however. I suspect that like being a liberal, socialism means something else to Americans than it does to us.

 

[ballen0351]

That's not the real socialism however. Socialism isn't about taking others property, communism is however. I suspect that like being a liberal, socialism means something else to Americans than it does to us.

So what is your def of socialism?

 

[Cryozombie]

I suspect that like being a liberal, socialism means something else to Americans than it does to us.

Typically I see the Term "Socialism" used here as a means of describing taking "extra" from the Haves, to give to the Have Nots so everyone has a more equal share. It's not a perfect definition, but the closest I can come to how *I* see it used all the time.

 

[billc]

Socialism is the intermediate step to pure communism. It is the stage where the government controls the means of production, and then transitions to the utopia of "from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs." The actual form of control has taken different paths, depending on the actual socialist trying to achieve this end.

 

[Tez3]

This is socialism. http://www.labour.org.uk/what_is_the_labour_party

their beliefs
social justice
• strong community and strong values
• reward for hard work
• decency
• rights matched by responsibilities.


It's very little to do with taking from the rich to give to the poor, that's the fictional Robin Hood but more about raising the poor to the rich, not taking from anyone. yes those who earn obscene bonuses from failing banks are liable to be made to pay but then the Conservastives are also saying that. It's about social justice not bringing everyone down,but raising people up by education, workers rights (and yes we need those),fair chances for everyone. It is not the next step to communism though there's nothing wrong with communism, what we've seen of it however is not communism but tryanny by certain leaders and this is as common among the right wing as it is the left.

When we over here look at the American issues we see something that is far more restrive than we have, we've had gays in the military for 11 years, we have abortion rights, same sex marriage etc these are all non political issues here. We hated Maggies trying to rein us in, we are socilaist at heart because we believe in equality, fair goes for all. The government is our servant not the other way around. We swear allegiance to the monarch not the government, the armed forces belong to the Crown, the police and Civil Service do as well. You can't judge our socialism by what you think it is. It's raising the people to be what they can be, not dragging everyone down. Of course not everyone wants to be raised but that's not the socialists fault!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/20/britain-socialism-psyche-cameron-capitalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_socialism_in_Great_Britain

 

[ballen0351]

This is socialism. http://www.labour.org.uk/what_is_the_labour_party

their beliefs
social justice
• strong community and strong values
• reward for hard work
• decency
• rights matched by responsibilities.


It's very little to do with taking from the rich to give to the poor, that's the fictional Robin Hood but more about raising the poor to the rich, not taking from anyone. yes those who earn obscene bonuses from failing banks are liable to be made to pay but then the Conservastives are also saying that. It's about social justice not bringing everyone down,but raising people up by education, workers rights (and yes we need those),fair chances for everyone. It is not the next step to communism though there's nothing wrong with communism, what we've seen of it however is not communism but tryanny by certain leaders and this is as common among the right wing as it is the left.

When we over here look at the American issues we see something that is far more restrive than we have, we've had gays in the military for 11 years, we have abortion rights, same sex marriage etc these are all non political issues here. We hated Maggies trying to rein us in, we are socilaist at heart because we believe in equality, fair goes for all. The government is our servant not the other way around. We swear allegiance to the monarch not the government, the armed forces belong to the Crown, the police and Civil Service do as well. You can't judge our socialism by what you think it is. It's raising the people to be what they can be, not dragging everyone down. Of course not everyone wants to be raised but that's not the socialists fault!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/20/britain-socialism-psyche-cameron-capitalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_socialism_in_Great_Britain

So where does the money come from to "Lift" up the poor and why are the poor entitled to be lifted up?

 

[billc]

Yes, you swear allegiance to a monarch which makes you 2nd class citizens from the beginning. Or is it 3rd class after the nobility.

 

[Ken Morgan]

This is socialism. http://www.labour.org.uk/what_is_the_labour_party

their beliefs
social justice
• strong community and strong values
• reward for hard work
• decency
• rights matched by responsibilities.


It's very little to do with taking from the rich to give to the poor, that's the fictional Robin Hood but more about raising the poor to the rich, not taking from anyone. yes those who earn obscene bonuses from failing banks are liable to be made to pay but then the Conservastives are also saying that. It's about social justice not bringing everyone down,but raising people up by education, workers rights (and yes we need those),fair chances for everyone. It is not the next step to communism though there's nothing wrong with communism, what we've seen of it however is not communism but tryanny by certain leaders and this is as common among the right wing as it is the left.

When we over here look at the American issues we see something that is far more restrive than we have, we've had gays in the military for 11 years, we have abortion rights, same sex marriage etc these are all non political issues here. We hated Maggies trying to rein us in, we are socilaist at heart because we believe in equality, fair goes for all. The government is our servant not the other way around. We swear allegiance to the monarch not the government, the armed forces belong to the Crown, the police and Civil Service do as well. You can't judge our socialism by what you think it is. It's raising the people to be what they can be, not dragging everyone down. Of course not everyone wants to be raised but that's not the socialists fault!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/20/britain-socialism-psyche-cameron-capitalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_socialism_in_Great_Britain

I doubt anyone would disagree with those values you listed at the start, though i would argue in Canada all the parties would say they support them, including we in the Conservative party. The argument doesn't come from the values themselves, it comes from how they are paid for, and how they are implemented. The money must come from someone, be it an individual or a company, do you/we have a right to take someone else’s money and use it for my/our projects? As for implementation, how does that relate to other jurisdictions rights, the constitution, or the right of individuals, are we stepping outside of our legal authority?

TEZ I find it odd that class is such a huge issue still in the UK as compared to Canada or the US. Is it really? Or do so many people just have a huge chip on their shoulders regarding historical inequalities? I get the feeling people don’t want it fixed, they just want to ***** about it.

 

[Tez3]

Bili, you manage to be insulting so much of the time, it's quite pathetic. Second class citizens? Hardly. As usual you misunderstand..deliberately?.. the situation in a country that's not your own, actually I wonder sometimes if you even understand your own country.

The way to 'raise' the poor in any country is by education and training, making people fit for work. Investing money in good schools, colleges and universities is never wasted. You make people 'fit' for work and by working they will rasie themselves up, you don't do it by chucking money at them but by people earning decent wages in decent jobs. You raise generations who can work, they will start businesses, companies will come to places where there's a decent workforce. We need well educated people in all walks of life. I think however you need to ask a British socialist about their beliefs, I'm a British Liberal, a different animal and something very different from what American think of as Liberals, in fact socialists aren't what they are in America.

I don't think there's much moaning about 'class equalities' anymore here, it rarely gets mentioned these days. Most 'aristocrats' apart from a couple who are good business people, most are skint. Having a title doesn't really get you anywhere, the working class here is proud of what they've achieved, the saying now is that we are all middle class now. The bankers are the ones being hated right now, they aren't upper class. I don't see or hear of people with any chips on their shoulders about class, I tend to think that's a Hollywood invention these days or like Bili just want to be insulting. In truth there is no class equality as such. There is an underclass that none of us like, the chavs, the benefit, cheats those who think they are entitled, that's a far bigger issue than class here.
We do have nationalism, where the Scots, Welsh and Irish all want complete independance, if Scotland gets that the Shetland Isles will want independance from them or at least to go back to Norway. These are the issues here along with the recession, immigration and local issues, class doesn't come into it.

Visits to Stately homes however are always a favourite day out, most are owned by the National Trust now, though some are owned still by the original oweners who have to open them to make any money, they are huge money pits.

My daughter's boyfriend worked in America for a year, he said there was considerable snobbery there, with the rich at the top and the 'trailer trash' and immigrants at the bottom. Perhaps not 'class' as such but certainly a very insidious form of discrimination. Being a racehorse trainer he certainly saw the very rich and they way they treated, talked about and regarded 'the poor' and those from the wrong side of the tracks, opened his eyes he said to a place where everyone was supposed to be equal.

 

[Sukerkin]

I concur with most of what Tez says above, other than the fact that class is still very much in evidence within British social structures. It is not so much about the Aristocracy any more but, as in America, the extremely (often undeservedly) wealthy. They are the Upper class and they tend to come from the same backgrounds and schools as each other. The Old Boy Network is alive and kicking and feeding its members into the government as it ever has.

That is indeed part of the problem and why those that govern us seem so unresponsive to the needs of those whose votes nominally put them in place. MP's incomes are in the top 2% of the country - how on earth are they supposed to identify even with the likes of me? For even as a very well qualified person and with fifteen years of seniority just in my present job, I still earn less than the national average (Britain does not love engineers any more ). How much less can they understand the problems facing a working mum who gets minimum wage working as a cleaner or suchlike?

 

[Tez3]

It's less class and more money that speaks these days, the greed is good policy of Maggie Thatcher has a lot to answer for. The old aristocracy did have a 'service to the nation' ethos that todays rich simply don't have, the footballers, celebrities and the banking types are in it for the money. I don't find the Upper class such a problem, and we have a few up here, all the Guards Officers here are upper class, we have various lords and ladies locally with whom I hunt, people don't mind that, they have manners and while they may be rich and have the old boy network it's Maggies lot that are ruining the country with their 'me, me' actions and thoughts. she has brought generations now into thinking they are entitled to everything, it was never the socialists that did this it was the Tories. maggie told everone they could own their own houses, have all the material goods they wanted, she forgot to say you had to work and earn everything, now they demand without producing anything. They won't start at the bottom and work up they want the 'X Factor' and they want it now.

Sukering, there's a very good series on BBC at the moment, it's a Danish drama and follows a female MP as she becomes Prime Minister and you can see how the machinations of politics turn her from a idealistic well meaning politician into someone who has to fight dirty just to keep her position. It's very good, called Borgen. You should be able to catch it on I Player.

 

[ballen0351]

All that sound great in a perfect world but we dont live in a perfect world. To be succesful you have to work hard for it and people dont want to work hard. They would rather go out and party then stay home a study and get an education. If that were not true we wouldnt have high school drop outs, people failing out of college. Social programs are designed to make people dependant on the Govt for survival. Once the people are dependant on the Govt the Govt can do what ever it wants.
Ive said it before in the projects turing 16 is a happy day not because they get to get a drivers license but because thats the day you get to apply for Govt housing. There is a 2 year waiting list so by the time your 18 you can get your "own" place. There are 4 generations of familys living in the same Govt housing project. None have finished high school. They have food stamps, city paid Bus passes, Govt paid housing, heat and even internet when the city decided it want fair for the poor not to have acces to the internet. Where is the motivation for any of them to go get an education? There are 1000's of grants available for the poor to get an education but they choose not too. They would rather hang out in the streets all night and sleep all day. We did a search warrant the other day I found 4 bottles of clean urine in the residence because the mother was on probation and was drug tested. 1 bottle was in the bathroom, 1 was in the mothers bedroom, one was in the living room and 1 in the pantry with the food. I asked her where the urine came from because she was high as a kite on PCP and she pointed to her 3 year old son. She makes him pee in a bottle to pass a drug test. Now I ask WHY on earth should we take tax dollars and pay for anything for her? Thats one example out of millions.
Socialist dont care about helping people they care about creating a society of dependants and making sure they stay in power and making sure the people stay in line with the threat of reducing social programs. Now I dont think that are all like that there are some that just dont see the dark side of the world they live in there little circles and never see anything else and they really think they are just helping people. There is a person in my Dojo that is like that so I set them up to do a ride along and tehy showed her what the world is really like outside of her book clubs and dinner parties. Shes now very conflicted about her beliefs and still to this day talks about the ride along which was back in June.

 

[Tez3]

All that sound great in a perfect world but we dont live in a perfect world. To be succesful you have to work hard for it and people dont want to work hard. They would rather go out and party then stay home a study and get an education. If that were not true we wouldnt have high school drop outs, people failing out of college. Social programs are designed to make people dependant on the Govt for survival. Once the people are dependant on the Govt the Govt can do what ever it wants.
Ive said it before in the projects turing 16 is a happy day not because they get to get a drivers license but because thats the day you get to apply for Govt housing. There is a 2 year waiting list so by the time your 18 you can get your "own" place. There are 4 generations of familys living in the same Govt housing project. None have finished high school. They have food stamps, city paid Bus passes, Govt paid housing, heat and even internet when the city decided it want fair for the poor not to have acces to the internet. Where is the motivation for any of them to go get an education? There are 1000's of grants available for the poor to get an education but they choose not too. They would rather hang out in the streets all night and sleep all day. We did a search warrant the other day I found 4 bottles of clean urine in the residence because the mother was on probation and was drug tested. 1 bottle was in the bathroom, 1 was in the mothers bedroom, one was in the living room and 1 in the pantry with the food. I asked her where the urine came from because she was high as a kite on PCP and she pointed to her 3 year old son. She makes him pee in a bottle to pass a drug test. Now I ask WHY on earth should we take tax dollars and pay for anything for her? Thats one example out of millions.
Socialist dont care about helping people they care about creating a society of dependants and making sure they stay in power and making sure the people stay in line with the threat of reducing social programs. Now I dont think that are all like that there are some that just dont see the dark side of the world they live in there little circles and never see anything else and they really think they are just helping people. There is a person in my Dojo that is like that so I set them up to do a ride along and tehy showed her what the world is really like outside of her book clubs and dinner parties. Shes now very conflicted about her beliefs and still to this day talks about the ride along which was back in June.

Here however it's the conservatives that want the people' kept down', they want the masses compliant and unemployment has always been highest when they are in power, it's the highest it's been for years again at the moment. We have companies laying off people, people losing their homes, education costin more than ever. Under the Tories we lost many industries including coal, ship building and most engineering. I'm afraid things here are only good for the few under the Tories. They've single handedly put more people on the dole than any socialist government we've had.

I hear people on the news calling Obama a socialist but looking at him and his policies I can see nothing socialist about him, he's not even left wing according to our standards, he's fit in with the more centralist Tories here.

 

[Sukerkin]

Mind you, to be fair to the Tories, as evidenced by the OP video, there are stirrings in the bushes and even hints that, saints preserve us, Thatcher may have been wrong about the consequences of the economic path she put us all on. To those of us who were never swayed by the Chicago School and have always pointed at the Austrian School as an example of a failure to model certain economic truths, this is hardly a surprise.

There is a rising tide within the Tory 'sea' that is lifting boats emblazoned with such words as "Ethical", "Sustainable" and "Inclusive" attached to the more familiar labels of "Free Market" (Ha! Never been any such thing) and "Capitalism". Frighteningly {LOL}, this afternoon I was listening to some junior ministers (and eminent economics professors) actually talking sense about the damage caused by excessive inequality of income (especially 'unearned' or 'unjustified' income). That damage is not only to 'faith in the system' and the social poisoning that that results in but also very real practical damage to the economy itself.

Answers are thin on the ground at present tho' about how to deal with it but at least there is the recognition is there that we cannot simply hope to bail out the banks at the expense of the 'poor' (that's us by the way) and hope to go on as before. The economic landscape is changing and that can only be for the better.

 

[Tez3]

Perhaps the Lib-Dems are having some influence on their blue chums after all.

 

[ballen0351]

Here however it's the conservatives that want the people' kept down', they want the masses compliant and unemployment has always been highest when they are in power, it's the highest it's been for years again at the moment. We have companies laying off people, people losing their homes, education costin more than ever. Under the Tories we lost many industries including coal, ship building and most engineering. I'm afraid things here are only good for the few under the Tories. They've single handedly put more people on the dole than any socialist government we've had.

I hear people on the news calling Obama a socialist but looking at him and his policies I can see nothing socialist about him, he's not even left wing according to our standards, he's fit in with the more centralist Tories here.

Obamas health care plan, his tax the rich plans thats what makes him socialist.
Im not rich and never will be but I also dont feel kept down because Im not. Im glad there are Rich people in the country they are the people that start companies and create jobs. I dont want their money and I dont want others to their have money either. There are plenty of ways to get ahead in this world and all it takes is hard work. Point to any poor person and I can show you where they went wrong. The left seem to make the rich "EVIL" unless of course they are liberal rich folks then they are enlightened. I think every one in this world gets what the deserve. Your delt your cards and its up to you to change them or keep them and you shouldnt steal from others. Social programs are creating a class of indentured servants to the Govt. ONly this time its not the plantation owner thats your master its the federal Govt. There are people in this country that are on unemployment for 2 years and still want more. There are people that have lived in govt owned housing since the day they were born and dont pay a dime and still want more, more more more more. When will it end?

 

[Tez3]

From what I've seen of Obama's healthcare plans they are far from socialist as far as we see it. Socialised healthcare would mean that all healthcare was free and/or only paid for by taxes or like us National Insurance. No one would pay for healthcare at the hospitals or doctors. I think for you though they seems socialist.

Britain's National Health Service is one of the best things about this country however I don't think you can duplicate it in America. Aftr the last war Britain was on it's knees, the poverty that wracked the country before the war due to the Depression etc wasn't helped by the country being bombed to pieces. slums were in every city, pepople were still dying from things like typhoid, polio as well as common things like measles, scarlet fever and of course in childbirth. The death rate among children was high.These conditions weren't totally eradicted until the late 1960s. We still had food rationing in the late 1950s. Only the very rich could afford to pay for a doctor and anhospitals were either for the rich or the very poor. the National health Service saved so many lives, brought so much good to this country you wouldn't believe. There was a poll recently and people still regard the NHS, even with it's faults as valuable.
I don't think such a thing , run in the same way, could work in the USA even if people were willing, it's a different era and your country is so much bigger than ours. I don't think Americans have the mindset to be as communal as we are, I think your cities are so large, the country so big you don't have the same feeling as we do about looking after each other. the war has a great deal to do with this, during it we were bombed, we faced obliteration, we were driven to our knees but we survived with a great sense of 'we are all in this together'. After the war there was a feeling that we needed to rebuild this country, that we needed to to have something we could be proud of, medical care for all was one of those things. A socialist government was elected straight after the war as they were felt to be the best ones to rebuild the country how people wanted it, certain industries were nationalised such as coal. coal was the fuel most used at that time, the mine owners, mostly absentee landlords had bad records for safety and pay, nationalising it meant these problems were addresses and the supply of coal was in the publics hands. Maggie Thatcher later destroyed tha industry, leaving whole towns in the north of England, Wales and scotland unemployed. The rail network was nationalised for much the same reasons, again she destroyed that, we have private companies running the train networks, more accidents than ever, huge expensive fares and chaotic timetables. It's a disaster. I can't afford to take a train down to York, half an hour away by train, it costs over £30 for a day return. it means we have more wagons on the roads because no one can afford to ship freight by train.

I think when it comes to politics our two countries are so far apart as not to actually understand each other. To us Obama seems conservative, he's not a socialist by our lights, he's merely trying to throw a sop at fixing a problem with the poor, mostly because they are an embarrassment to the country.

We have poor people here, in the old pit villages, in the old steel towns, in the towns where ship building used to be. They haven't done anything wrong, they didn't become poor because they were afraid to work or they expected a handout. these are proud people who have had the Tory government pull the work out from under them. Get on your bike was the advice given to the unemployed by the government. To where? to another town devastated by unemployment? Tell them that it's their fault, we don't build ships anymore, we don't have a coal industry anymore, we don't have steel works anymore, we don't have enough jobs to go around, that's the truth however hard people are willing to work there simply aren't the jobs. The Tories destroyed so much in this country, we still aren't sorted, we may never be to be honest. I'm not a scoilaist so hold no candle for them, they have their faults but dear lord the Tories under Thatcher were the most destructive, nasty, vindictive and destructive government we have ever had. People see the affluence in certain parts of the south of England but it's not like that everywhere. There is so much pain in so much of the country, it leads to so much more trouble too. Simply saying get a job and work hard won't cut it I'm afraid. Perhaps in America but not here, not anymore. This is Maggie's legacy.

 

[Tez3]

I have no idea what those little box things are at the end of my previous post! Bizarre!