Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective for Self-Defense

[drop bear]

For me it is quite simple, if you want to be able to utilize karate or any fighting art for self protection then you would have to train it strictly for self protection. I simply cannot see how one can possibly train in sport and realistic self protection at the same time. You're either training in sport or self protection or Art. I

A good martial art that has a solid foundation can do both. Or all three.

When I read terms like self protection I am reminded of terms like tactical. Which is an obvious sale pitch.

You can buy stuff. You can buy tactical stuff. But tactical stuff is not always better for doing tactical things. It is just designed to make the consumer buy the product.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A good martial art that has a solid foundation can do both. Or all three.

When I read terms like self protection I am reminded of terms like tactical. Which is an obvious sale pitch.

You can buy stuff. You can buy tactical stuff. But tactical stuff is not always better for doing tactical things. It is just designed to make the consumer buy the product.

I like the foregrip. My sword doesn't have that.

 

[JR 137]

"Holy resurrected thread Batman!!"

While I do understand where the author of the article is coming from and has some valid points, I think that overall his conclusions are severely misguided. If we were to place an elephant inside of a room and allowed uninformed outsiders to only get a glimpse of it through a keyhole then their respective perceptions can be misguided. If every time I looked through the keyhole and only caught a glimpse of the elephants body or torso I may think that it is a rhinoceros that is behind that door. If another person only manages to catch a glimpse of the elephant's trunk every time they glance through the keyhole then perhaps they would think that it's some kind of large snake that is behind that door.

It's in a similar fashion that I think that the author of this article is misguided. He's going by the karateka who either train for sport and/or self development or a way of life (in essence, martial ART). THE PROBLEM IS that most of the karateka who train in one or both of those aspects also CLAIM and BELIEVE that they train for self defense as well when nothing can be further from the truth after close examination.

For me it is quite simple, if you want to be able to utilize karate or any fighting art for self protection then you would have to train it strictly for self protection. I simply cannot see how one can possibly train in sport and realistic self protection at the same time. You're either training in sport or self protection or Art. It is my personal observation and experiences that the majority of karate schools claim to teach and train in self defense when in reality they are teaching and training a sport/tournament version of karate. It seems that almost no one in the karate world is willing or able to see this situation for what it really is and call it for what it really is. This creates a not so great reputation surrounding karate and causes people like the author of the article to dismiss karate entirely (though under faulty premises).

I do think that one can train in either sport or realistic self defense and still practice Art at the same time if one is willing to look at their training as having a side benefit of art, self growth/development, way of life, way of self expression, etc.

But my stance is that karate can be very, very effective for self protection/self defense IF it is truly, truly, truly trained for such and only for such.

My two cents for what it's worth.

Take Care Everyone and Have A Great One,
Osu!

You're looking through that keyhole too, in a way, regarding sport karate. I'm assuming you have point fighting in mind. What about knockdown? Watch a Kyokushin tournament and tell me that what they're doing is far enough removed from reality to be completely ineffective as self defense (the when all other options have been exhausted aspect; please let's not have another SD vs fighting vs ad nauseum).

Even point fighting has elements that'll help defend yourself. A punch is a punch. Learning to punch helps. Learning to kick helps. Learning to evade helps. Learning timing helps. Training hard and getting in good physical shape helps. The pressure to perform against unknown opponents helps. Point fighting is a bit of a stretch, but some universal fighting attributes are there.

For the record, I hate point fighting. But it's not 100% worthless. Training for a tournament that my daughters talked me into competing in made me better able to defend myself. It didn't take me from a nobody to a guy who can clear out the bar by himself with one hand tied behind his back, but there's no denying I got faster, stronger, and more flexible.

 

[Steve]

A good martial art that has a solid foundation can do both. Or all three.

When I read terms like self protection I am reminded of terms like tactical. Which is an obvious sale pitch.

You can buy stuff. You can buy tactical stuff. But tactical stuff is not always better for doing tactical things. It is just designed to make the consumer buy the product.

That's about the only thing I'd rather have than a working light saber. Wait. No, I'd still rather have a working light saber. But that's a very close second.

 

[Psilent Knight]

You're looking through that keyhole too, in a way, regarding sport karate. I'm assuming you have point fighting in mind. What about knockdown? Watch a Kyokushin tournament and tell me that what they're doing is far enough removed from reality to be completely ineffective as self defense (the when all other options have been exhausted aspect; please let's not have another SD vs fighting vs ad nauseum).

Even point fighting has elements that'll help defend yourself. A punch is a punch. Learning to punch helps. Learning to kick helps. Learning to evade helps. Learning timing helps. Training hard and getting in good physical shape helps. The pressure to perform against unknown opponents helps. Point fighting is a bit of a stretch, but some universal fighting attributes are there.

For the record, I hate point fighting. But it's not 100% worthless. Training for a tournament that my daughters talked me into competing in made me better able to defend myself. It didn't take me from a nobody to a guy who can clear out the bar by himself with one hand tied behind his back, but there's no denying I got faster, stronger, and more flexible.

I wish to repeat that my post was just my two cents FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH. Everyone here is free to either agree or disagree.

When I read terms like self protection I am reminded of terms like tactical. Which is an obvious sale pitch.

Good thing I have nothing to sell. Also I wish to make clear that I personally use the terms self protection and self defense interchangeably (which should've been obvious from my post).

Take Care and Have A Good Night,
Osu!

 

[JR 137]

I wish to repeat that my post was just my two cents FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH. Everyone here is free to either agree or disagree.



Good thing I have nothing to sell. Also I wish to make clear that I personally use the terms self protection and self defense interchangeably (which should've been obvious from my post).

Take Care and Have A Good Night,
Osu!

Isn't every post just the poster's opinion? I didn't take any offense to your post I quoted. I agree with a lot of what you said, but I gave some counterpoints. Just my 2 cents.

 

[hoshin1600]

That's about the only thing I'd rather have than a working light saber. Wait. No, I'd still rather have a working light saber. But that's a very close second.

you cant have a working light saber....you'll take your eye out.

 

[Steve]

Isn't every post just the poster's opinion? I didn't take any offense to your post I quoted. I agree with a lot of what you said, but I gave some counterpoints. Just my 2 cents.

Sometimes a post contains a fact or two. The trick is to distinguish between facts and opinions. Usually pretty straightforward.

But often, someone will post facts and also their opinions derived from facts, and not be able to tell one from the other.

 

[Steve]

you cant have a working light saber....you'll take your eye out.

I'd certainly be short a limb or two, but the good news is that the robotic prosthetics are awesome.

 

[hoshin1600]

If I am free do disagree then I will. I good art will preform well in any environment. You may have to tweak it for better performance but it will work well. A good punch is a good punch, regardless of the context. On the opposite side, a crappy punch may only work in point fighting. Or in a single context.
A good art acts as a base and the individual can take it in whatever direction they choose. You can then do little add on to tailor it.

 

[Psilent Knight]

Isn't every post just the poster's opinion? I didn't take any offense to your post I quoted. I agree with a lot of what you said, but I gave some counterpoints. Just my 2 cents.

If I may, I would like to state one thing for everyone's clarification. I was not singling out point sparring, I meant sport/tournament karate regardless if it's full contact, semi contact, non contact, point sparring or anything else in between. If it has rules, a referee, a designated fighting area, fixed time limit and the participants are given the chance to be set and ready before the ref yells "BEGIN!" then it is sport which is a whole different animal from the real thing. I think I'll just leave it at that.

Take Care,

Osu!

 

[drop bear]

If I may, I would like to state one thing for everyone's clarification. I was not singling out point sparring, I meant sport/tournament karate regardless if it's full contact, semi contact, non contact, point sparring or anything else in between. If it has rules, a referee, a designated fighting area, fixed time limit and the participants are given the chance to be set and ready before the ref yells "BEGIN!" then it is sport which is a whole different animal from the real thing. I think I'll just leave it at that.

Take Care,

Osu!

Well yeah. Obviously fighting is easier if I dont have to worry about rules a ref and the other guy being pre warned. But what are you going to do?

 

[CDR_Glock]

In modern times we must always be aware of what is happening. Disaster can occur in a moment's notice. So can a riot or random act of violence. Situational awareness is critical.

As for the rigidity of karate, I agree. There are other forms that can be more effective.

I also look towards improvised weapons wherever I may be. Anything can be applied as a weapon. It can dissuade an attack or outright neutralize it.

However, with racial tensions and gang violence, I have resorted to my training with firearms. I would use my martial arts to buy me seconds to be able to step back and draw my weapon. That is realistically how I approach self defense.

I have gotten into 2 hostile disputes and talked my way out of them. Always ready to attack or counter. Luckily I have never had to attack or counter attack an assailant.

I don't put myself in situations that would lead to major conflict. However, it is important to use whatever tools are available. Shooting is my last option.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[ShortBridge]

I agree that karate is ineffective against nuclear attacks, poison gas and snipers. I couldn't get through the rest of this diatribe.

 

[wingchun100]

A "Traditional" Reverse punch is both a technique and a training tool. I was taught that it is easier to teach and practice big motions, also trains the full range of motion. Eventually, you should be able to throw a punch from the shoulder, or from your pocket for that matter with correct body mechanics.

Todd

The mention of big motions made me think of my current Wing Chun teacher. All his teaching favors what he calls "small circle." He said to me in the last class I attended: "If you can get good at small circle, big circle is easy."

 

[Vincent]

Like many of the people here, I agree with some of the points and disagree with others. I don't want to say that karate was never any good, but I do think most of the physical discipline that's called karate today doesn't seem like a logical or efficient means of training for self defense.

At the risk of getting bogged down in hair-splitting, I'll contrast typical karate with boxing. Boxers don't spend years whittling away at imperfections in the execution of their discipline before they can handle themselves. I doubt most boxers would be afraid to take a karate class, but the majority of karateka wouldn't step foot in a real boxing gym. I'm not saying that boxing is the be-all, end-all, but that typical karate doesn't compare very well when the rubber meets the road. Boxing has very efficient technique that's tested and refined in a more intensive and realistic arena (the ring) than most karateka will ever enter. Some karateka will counter that boxing is made for the ring, but karate is made for the street. Okay, let's get a boxer who has trained for as long as that karateka, find an area of "street," and see how the karateka does against the boxer. Let's see if the boxer doesn't agree to that idea with a confident "yeah, sure," while the karateka tries talking his way out of it.

Karate blocks, at least as they're presented, are ridiculous. Outside of the movies, or a martial arts school where the students have all bought into the dance, where have you seen that kind of block work? Show me one instance of an upper, lower, outside-inside, or inside-outside block happening in MMA? I suspect there's a valid "street" application in which a block is actually a strike meant to take out to injure that limb, but I don't think it works how the blocking technique that karateka practice for years suggests it would work.

Karate's body toughening practices don't seem very productive. I'm not aware of people who have to handle violent situations for a living repetitively banging their limbs to toughen them up. I fully agree that people who are serious about combat should get in the ring and learn to manage their fear of getting hit. There should also be physical conditioning for explosive power, general strength, endurance, and cardio-vascular fitness. But bruising yourself until you don't bruise anymore is awfully questionable. That's a lot of self-inflicted inflammation, and medical science has learned a lot about the negative long-term effects of inflammation.

I was ready to write off karate completely and instead go with a something like a BJJ/striking mix, but I do notice all the LE and military professionals who have faced violence for a living and have high rank in a traditional karate ryuha. They've done other combat methodologies too, but they found enough value in karate to stick with it long enough to get a level of rank that takes decades.

I suspect there are realistic approaches to karate that develop respectable combatants, but they aren't for everybody. Just like in a boxing gym, you'll endure some intense training and will need to be tougher than the average person. But that karate isn't common today, and the vast majority of school-running sensei aren't at that level.

 

[Buka]

Welcome to MartialTalk, Vincent.

Heck of a first post, great read. I'm not sure there's a "typical Karate" any more, though.

As I read your post I knew you've been around for a while. I kind of got the flavor of Karate as I knew it back in the day. But we lived in the boxing gym during the day because the dojo didn't open until 5.

I'll tell you what, though. If you're a Karate man and study boxing for a few years? The day the guys in the boxing gym finally ask you to fight with some of that Karate stuff - it is like the greatest Christmas morning you ever had as a little kid.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Like many of the people here, I agree with some of the points and disagree with others. I don't want to say that karate was never any good, but I do think most of the physical discipline that's called karate today doesn't seem like a logical or efficient means of training for self defense.

At the risk of getting bogged down in hair-splitting, I'll contrast typical karate with boxing. Boxers don't spend years whittling away at imperfections in the execution of their discipline before they can handle themselves. I doubt most boxers would be afraid to take a karate class, but the majority of karateka wouldn't step foot in a real boxing gym. I'm not saying that boxing is the be-all, end-all, but that typical karate doesn't compare very well when the rubber meets the road. Boxing has very efficient technique that's tested and refined in a more intensive and realistic arena (the ring) than most karateka will ever enter. Some karateka will counter that boxing is made for the ring, but karate is made for the street. Okay, let's get a boxer who has trained for as long as that karateka, find an area of "street," and see how the karateka does against the boxer. Let's see if the boxer doesn't agree to that idea with a confident "yeah, sure," while the karateka tries talking his way out of it.

Karate blocks, at least as they're presented, are ridiculous. Outside of the movies, or a martial arts school where the students have all bought into the dance, where have you seen that kind of block work? Show me one instance of an upper, lower, outside-inside, or inside-outside block happening in MMA? I suspect there's a valid "street" application in which a block is actually a strike meant to take out to injure that limb, but I don't think it works how the blocking technique that karateka practice for years suggests it would work.

Karate's body toughening practices don't seem very productive. I'm not aware of people who have to handle violent situations for a living repetitively banging their limbs to toughen them up. I fully agree that people who are serious about combat should get in the ring and learn to manage their fear of getting hit. There should also be physical conditioning for explosive power, general strength, endurance, and cardio-vascular fitness. But bruising yourself until you don't bruise anymore is awfully questionable. That's a lot of self-inflicted inflammation, and medical science has learned a lot about the negative long-term effects of inflammation.

I was ready to write off karate completely and instead go with a something like a BJJ/striking mix, but I do notice all the LE and military professionals who have faced violence for a living and have high rank in a traditional karate ryuha. They've done other combat methodologies too, but they found enough value in karate to stick with it long enough to get a level of rank that takes decades.

I suspect there are realistic approaches to karate that develop respectable combatants, but they aren't for everybody. Just like in a boxing gym, you'll endure some intense training and will need to be tougher than the average person. But that karate isn't common today, and the vast majority of school-running sensei aren't at that level.

Welcome, Vincent. Like Buka, I think that's a heck of a first post! Great thoughts - love how you're digging in and really thinking.

A few thoughts on the differences. First off, we can't even go down the rabbit hole of comparing serious boxers to hobbyist Karate students. These days, I'm starting to see hobbyist boxers, but I think those weren't as common in the past. (By hobbyist, I mean folks who train 2-5 hours a week most of the time - contrast that with serious training which usually starts at 5 hours a day several days a week.) I think you'd find a faster path and different approach if you looked at - for instance - someone studying Karate seriously (5+ hours a day, including fitness training, etc.) to prepare for serious competition. Just compare the time-in-training (ignoring the advantages of compressed timeframes, less time to forget, etc.). If someone trains 3 hours a week (2 classes at many schools, which is pretty common) plus does some moderate fitness for 3 hours a week (two runs, plus a trip to the gym for strength), that's about 300 hours a year. Now let's say a serious boxer (or Karateka) trains hard for 6 hours a day, including 2 hours of heavy fitness work, 5 days a week (I've known guys who trained harder than that) - that's 30 hours a week, about 1500 hours a year. On time alone, they are covering about 5 years of hobbyist time in a single year. And they are training with more intensity, which seems to develop folks faster and farther. And their fitness work is more intense (and more frequent) so they are in better shape. Given those last two points, the serious boxer is probably better at 1 year than the hobbyist Karateka is in 5, but it's not because of the art. Buka trained much harder "back in the day" than I have trained.If you put me in my prime against Buka in his prime, he'd absolutely trash me. And I'm not sure it would matter much which art either of us trained in.

Now that we've dispensed with that variable, let's look at some of the concepts you're examining. Much of the inefficiency (from a fight perspective) of the typical path comes from a few areas. Perhaps the clearest is that what's taught is Karate-do. In Japanese culture, that "do" means something specific - that the teaching is more about improvement than fighting (or, at least, as much so). Part of the point is the time spent honing the discipline. So, even when a kick is useful, time is spent perfecting the technical merits (note: not always the same as the usefulness). Drills are sometimes used just as a method of development. Another component is the love of the tradition. There are Karate forms that help build strength. I'm no expert in the area, but I'll be we (as a society) know faster ways to build most of that strength, but some folks still use that slower method because they enjoy it - the path (the "do") is the point sometimes.

Mind you, that doesn't mean there's no room for improvement. Within my own art, I'm a bit of a maverick. I've changed more of the approach than anyone I know. Some of that is to be more efficient, but it's still nowhere near what I could design as a "most efficient" practice. Why? Because I like the kinds of folks I can help/work with/teach at the level I teach. To go for "most efficient", I'd have to change my audience, because the hobbyist (even the serious hobbyist, like me) isn't interested in that commitment. My priorities have almost always put that in another area. And I like the kind of person who is interested in exploring the idea of "aiki" - the intellectual and physical pursuit of working that "softer" approach into fight mechanics. It's a long path. The techniques are useful, but not "most efficient" path to fighting effectiveness by a long shot. I suspect there's some of that in Karate, as well - some stuff that's there because it attracts the right group of people who can geek out about it and have fun training together, which enriches their lives probably more than the actual fighting ability will.

So, my basic point is that there IS, as you suspected, real fighting value to Karate. Lots of it, in fact. It comes slower (though perhaps not quite as slowly as you perceive) than in some disciplines, but it definitely exists.

 

[JR 137]

Like many of the people here, I agree with some of the points and disagree with others. I don't want to say that karate was never any good, but I do think most of the physical discipline that's called karate today doesn't seem like a logical or efficient means of training for self defense.

At the risk of getting bogged down in hair-splitting, I'll contrast typical karate with boxing. Boxers don't spend years whittling away at imperfections in the execution of their discipline before they can handle themselves. I doubt most boxers would be afraid to take a karate class, but the majority of karateka wouldn't step foot in a real boxing gym. I'm not saying that boxing is the be-all, end-all, but that typical karate doesn't compare very well when the rubber meets the road. Boxing has very efficient technique that's tested and refined in a more intensive and realistic arena (the ring) than most karateka will ever enter. Some karateka will counter that boxing is made for the ring, but karate is made for the street. Okay, let's get a boxer who has trained for as long as that karateka, find an area of "street," and see how the karateka does against the boxer. Let's see if the boxer doesn't agree to that idea with a confident "yeah, sure," while the karateka tries talking his way out of it.

Karate blocks, at least as they're presented, are ridiculous. Outside of the movies, or a martial arts school where the students have all bought into the dance, where have you seen that kind of block work? Show me one instance of an upper, lower, outside-inside, or inside-outside block happening in MMA? I suspect there's a valid "street" application in which a block is actually a strike meant to take out to injure that limb, but I don't think it works how the blocking technique that karateka practice for years suggests it would work.

Karate's body toughening practices don't seem very productive. I'm not aware of people who have to handle violent situations for a living repetitively banging their limbs to toughen them up. I fully agree that people who are serious about combat should get in the ring and learn to manage their fear of getting hit. There should also be physical conditioning for explosive power, general strength, endurance, and cardio-vascular fitness. But bruising yourself until you don't bruise anymore is awfully questionable. That's a lot of self-inflicted inflammation, and medical science has learned a lot about the negative long-term effects of inflammation.

I was ready to write off karate completely and instead go with a something like a BJJ/striking mix, but I do notice all the LE and military professionals who have faced violence for a living and have high rank in a traditional karate ryuha. They've done other combat methodologies too, but they found enough value in karate to stick with it long enough to get a level of rank that takes decades.

I suspect there are realistic approaches to karate that develop respectable combatants, but they aren't for everybody. Just like in a boxing gym, you'll endure some intense training and will need to be tougher than the average person. But that karate isn't common today, and the vast majority of school-running sensei aren't at that level.

Excellent post, and I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. I won’t rehash what I agree and disagree with, as the previous 2 posters have done a better job of stating exactly how I feel. I’ll just add a little bit to it...

A lot of current karate (and other striking arts) students aren’t “serious” students in the sense that their main objective is self-defense/fighting. They’re there far more for the other benefits TMA have been pushing in ads - self discipline, wellness, etc. Nothing wrong with that. IMO they’re there more for the side effects than the originally intended purpose. Kind of like doctors prescribing a drug “off-label” (think Wellbutrin to quit smoking rather than for its intended anti-depression).

One other point is my situation and many others I train alongside in my dojo - we’ve been there, done that when we were younger. I trained bare knuckle in my 20s. I wrestled through elementary and high school. The day in and day out pounding isn’t as easy to recover from in my early 40s and beyond as it was back then. Sure, I could still do it, but for how long? I re-started karate a few years ago after an almost 15 year hiatus. When I was looking at dojos, it was between a Kyokushin dojo and Seido. I knew I wouldn’t be in Kyokushin for a long time; maybe a few years at best until my body stopped recovering from it. Seido comes from Kyokushin, but the contact level is less. The curricula are quite similar (Seido’s founder, Tadashi Nakamura, was sent to the US by Mas Oyama to start and spread Kyokushin here).

The hard contact and training are great. IMO everyone should have some experience with it. It teaches things that IMO can’t be learned by any other means. But there’s a limit; there’s a balance. Sure there’s people that have trained like that for decades, but INO they’re the exception and not the rule. I know so many people who trained like that for a long time and can’t train anything anymore due to the toll it took. I know too many guys who’ve had hips and shoulders replaced and various other problems way too early in life due to it.

Karate is supposed to be a lifelong study. I went the lighter contact route to ensure it will be. Most of the older people in my dojo have done the same. Most came from Kyokushin. You can easily spot the ones who came from there and similar systems from the ones who didn’t. Not from a technical nor aesthetic standpoint, but from shear fighting ability. It’s not because the ones who didn’t weren’t taught right; it’s because they’ve never been hit really hard and haven’t really learned that lesson IMO.

 

[hoshin1600]

i think the posts made by Buka, Gerry and JR are spot on.
@Vincent i would propose that your point of view is 100% true and accurate according to your own view of karate. i would then ask you to define karate. Describe it to me. i am 100% sure your definition of karate,does not match mine , Buka. Gerry or JR's description or what karate looks like for them. JR hit the nail on the head with the comment that karate is meant to be trained for life. from a young youth until the day you die. the image of karate you hold in your mind is only one version of what karate can be. karate is more a vessel, a container rather then the contents.
i see comments and view points like your own very often and sometimes it gets under my skin but as i age i just have to nod and say ok if you say so.
karate is like a good Vietnamese soup. some will say the soup is too spicy, well then dont put sriracha sauce in it. some will say its too sour,, well then dont put the lime in it and put in more sugar. but its too sweet, too fishy, too many vegetables. dont like beef,,, well then put in sea food, dont like sea food,, put in beef balls or chicken. karate is the base broth and bowl. people complain about the flavor because they forget its their soup!!!! your depending on someone else to spoon feed you! the chef/ teacher cant please everyone. the teacher does his best to present the flavor MOST people will enjoy, young to old. if you are disappointed in the flavor, take the responsibility upon yourself to get the flavor you like. its not the bowls fault, its up to you.