Why has the long boxing guard disappeared?

Rat

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First off to clarify, i mean the "old school" pugilism style of boxing guard.

frankpaddyslavin2.jpg


In the vein of this style. (there are variations but most seem to have died out as far as i can see)


To answer the question you probbly have to go back to why it has disappeared from sports boxing, of which i dont recall why it fell out of fashion. I have heard knives being the reason for it falling out fo favour, but its not like europeans never carried knives, they fought like that alongside carrying weapons. So that sort of didnt stand up to some mental scrunity when i thought about it.


Any imput for why it fell out of fashion? Best i can come up with is the modern boxing style is more entertaining to watch and works better in the gloves they use so with it falling out of favour there it means it fell out of favour with the general population as boxing became more of a sport than for fighting study.
 

skribs

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It's very hard to generate power with a jab from that position. The jab is pretty much universally referred to as the most important punch, so eliminating that from your arsenal is a pretty big hit.

When you introduce grappling to the mix, isolating an arm like that is just asking for your opponent to take control of it.
 

JowGaWolf

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I don't think it fell out of style. I just think people cycle through that guard faster than they have in the past. It's not a guard that you always keep on. Sometimes you use it and sometimes you don't depending on what you have to deal with. The other thing that has probably affected the use of it, is that other guard variations have been developed and work quite well for the people who know how to use them.

upload_2021-4-17_11-38-56.png


Even in the video you can see it come up and go down.

I personally like the long guard. A lot of the advantages that it has works really good with how I like to defend and attack.
Long Guard = I'll deal with you as you come in (come get me)
Mid Guard = I'll meet you half way (Even trade)
Short Guard = I'll deal with you when you get here. (Invite them in)
 

isshinryuronin

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First off to clarify, i mean the "old school" pugilism style of boxing guard.

frankpaddyslavin2.jpg


In the vein of this style. (there are variations but most seem to have died out as far as i can see)

The "long guard", you see, was obviously linked with the handlebar moustache. When boxer's lip hair went out of style, so did the old-school guard.
 

JowGaWolf

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It's very hard to generate power with a jab from that position.
It's not hard. You just have to generate the power differently. It's a whole body punch. If you just flick it out there then it's going to be really weak. Think of it like trying to push a spear through something.
 

skribs

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It's not hard. You just have to generate the power differently. It's a whole body punch. If you just flick it out there then it's going to be really weak. Think of it like trying to push a spear through something.

In my tests with a strike meter, the arm actually proved the most important. The whole body punch might have more weight behind it, but velocity is more important to kinetic energy than mass. Energy = Mass * Velocity Squared. Velocity is doubly important, and you lose that when your acceleration is from Point A to Point A Adjacent.
 

Dirty Dog

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In my tests with a strike meter, the arm actually proved the most important. The whole body punch might have more weight behind it, but velocity is more important to kinetic energy than mass. Energy = Mass * Velocity Squared. Velocity is doubly important, and you lose that when your acceleration is from Point A to Point A Adjacent.

Squared is not doubled....
 

JowGaWolf

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In my tests with a strike meter, the arm actually proved the most important. The whole body punch might have more weight behind it, but velocity is more important to kinetic energy than mass. Energy = Mass * Velocity Squared. Velocity is doubly important, and you lose that when your acceleration is from Point A to Point A Adjacent.
Your getting too caught up in the math of things .

Nothing about the formula is going to help you to
  • understand how to generate the power
  • understand how to be effective with it
I know you guys like your math in here, But when it comes to human mechanics, and just bio mechanics in general, math formulas aren't going to help you in this area.

Formulas don't mean squat if you don't know how to use the long guard in the way that I described as "pushing a spear through"
 

JowGaWolf

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Give me the formula for a hard punch.

Me: Doesn't matter if you lack the ability to punch with good technique. It matters even less if you can't land it against a moving target that is trying to hit you back.
 

JowGaWolf

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Boxing evolved. Sorry pugilism.

Looks like something I would do if I'm mad at the world lol. Good Lawd ..

I notice that the normal boxing guard and covers don't stop the fist. Those things just slip right through.
 

isshinryuronin

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In my tests with a strike meter, the arm actually proved the most important. The whole body punch might have more weight behind it, but velocity is more important to kinetic energy than mass. Energy = Mass * Velocity Squared. Velocity is doubly important, and you lose that when your acceleration is from Point A to Point A Adjacent.

Yes, velocity is important, and may register on a meter as more force at the point of impact. But a punch, to do serious damage, must also have penetration power, going past the impact point, and that requires the jab to have the body behind it. This takes some skill to achieve without winding up or leaning your body forward.

A very fast flicking jab will have a much different effect on a heavy bag or hand held body shield than a quick body driven jab - two different things. The former is good for throwing off the opponent's timing or to distract him, the latter better for actually causing some damage and allowing for a strong follow-up. The flicking jab may snap the head back a little, although will not have much effect on the body. The body driven jab can drive the opponent back no matter the target.

The biggest advantages of the flicking jab is that it can be a distraction and over time can cause facial damage, and can score points in sport boxing/karate. But in actual combat, these things, especially the last two, are irrelevant.
 

skribs

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Yes, velocity is important, and may register on a meter as more force at the point of impact. But a punch, to do serious damage, must also have penetration power, going past the impact point, and that requires the jab to have the body behind it. This takes some skill to achieve without winding up or leaning your body forward.

A very fast flicking jab will have a much different effect on a heavy bag or hand held body shield than a quick body driven jab - two different things. The former is good for throwing off the opponent's timing or to distract him, the latter better for actually causing some damage and allowing for a strong follow-up. The flicking jab may snap the head back a little, although will not have much effect on the body. The body driven jab can drive the opponent back no matter the target.

The biggest advantages of the flicking jab is that it can be a distraction and over time can cause facial damage, and can score points in sport boxing/karate. But in actual combat, these things, especially the last two, are irrelevant.

Penetrating power without enough velocity is just going to be a push.
 

isshinryuronin

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Penetrating power without enough velocity is just going to be a push.
A push is different than penetration. Please refer to the quotes below:

Yes, velocity is important
quick body driven jab

Explosive body-driven power is needed to penetrate. Just like punching thru boards in tameshiwari. A quick body driven, penetrating jab is quite possible with proper skillful technique, and perhaps much training.
 

drop bear

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Looks like something I would do if I'm mad at the world lol. Good Lawd ..

I notice that the normal boxing guard and covers don't stop the fist. Those things just slip right through.

Yeah. It has much more to do with timing and head movement.

Which is the same with mma.


There is an argument that bare knuckle forces people to hit more softly. Because you will get messed up if you hit hard.

I think they are just resigned to the notion they will get messed up.
 

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