Why has the long boxing guard disappeared?

Martial D

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You can still use your long guard to knock down your opponent's hook punch far away from your head. That's the advantage to use long guard.

The long guard is like the Chines spear, any attack can be deflected by either clockwise circle, or counter-clockwise circle.

spear-skill-1.gif
Sure, if you are fast as lightning and he is aligned to your center, but boxers tend to stay off line and the initiator always has the speed advantage. You have to wait until you see the punch to react, by then it's halfway there, and that's if you're lucky.

The reason people use the hair comb cover against hooks instead is it requires a minimal amount of movement to bring it up.
 

Martial D

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The comb hair has it's place, but it's too conservative.

long guard -> back fist (or uppercut) -> arm wrap

is more aggressive approach.
Well that sounds cool. So cool in fact if you saw someone pull it off in a fight or in competition it would be a holy sh#t moment. Like something from a movie.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Well that sounds cool. So cool in fact if you saw someone pull it off in a fight or in competition it would be a holy sh#t moment. Like something from a movie.
Just give another 10 or 20 more years. The MMA is still pretty young. The true striking art and grappling art integration has not fully achieved yet. Today MMA guys still use "change levels" to switch from a striking art into a grappling art. Most of the MMA guy's take down are only single leg and double legs.

The day when people use a

- hook punch to set up under hook.
- back fist to set up arm wrap.
- downward separate hands to set up double legs.
- upward separate hands to set up head lock.
- ...

the day that true striking art and grappling art integration will have been achieved.

The day when you see people use "front cut", or "slant cut" in MMA, the day that arm wrap will become popular. The "cut" is similar to "single leg". You just use your leg to do your hand job. You don't have to drop so low, but you need to deal with your opponent's leading arm.

front-cut.gif


Lin-slant-cut-1.gif
 
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JowGaWolf

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If your arms are extended you are vulnerable to hooks as you can't quickly do a hair comb cover, you also can't quickly slap parry(pak sau in CMA).
This depends on how you use the long guard. Lower your stance and use long guard and your opponent will not be in a good position to throw a hook.

With long guard you don't need to slap parry. Long guards hand is closer to the opponents elbow than the opponents fist is to your face. As result control the elbow of a punch which is better than slap parry in my opinion.

Long guard used in close range. Long guard controls elbow.
upload_2021-4-20_23-17-1.png


Incoming punch gets past my long guard, but my long guard can still interfere with the punch at his elbow.
Incoming punch also gets past my short guard. There is nothing else that my short guard can do.

Punch has left my short guard.
Long guard still is in contact with punching arm.
upload_2021-4-20_23-21-13.png



Long guard interferes with punch returning to chamber. Had I been more skilled I would have used my forearm to control. Long guard controls arm
upload_2021-4-20_23-24-16.png



Long guard done incorrectly. Long guard controls wrist instead of elbow. Elbow is part of punch
upload_2021-4-20_23-32-15.png



Because he did not use the Long guard correctly, I was able to turn and counter. He cannot retrieve his hand because his Long guard is pinned against my short guard.
upload_2021-4-20_23-37-27.png



If you use the long guard incorrectly then it will bring nothing but trouble to you. If you use the Long Guard correctly then it will bring trouble to your opponent.
upload_2021-4-20_23-40-22.png
 
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JowGaWolf

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Well that sounds cool. So cool in fact if you saw someone pull it off in a fight or in competition it would be a holy sh#t moment. Like something from a movie.
You make it to be bigger than what it is. Don't make it complicated. Once you learn it, you will say "This is not exciting enough to be in a movie."
 

JowGaWolf

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You have to wait until you see the punch to react, by then it's halfway there, and that's if you're lucky.
If you are doing this with the long guard then you are doing it incorrectly.

There are a limited number of ways that a fist can leave the chamber. Stop it before it reaches 50% and you'll stop most of what people throw. The sooner the better.
 

punisher73

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As with any guard position, it is a snapshot in time before contact has been made. You shouldn't just stay in a position....this is in reference to stating that long guard leaves you open for X and a short guard leaves you open for Y. Both have their uses and their places.

If you look at kata (speaking from a "karate" point of view, not familiar enough to state with clarity that kung fu does/does not do the same), there are MANY different "guard positions" in there. Many times you "get into a stance" and the hands are held a certain way (kamae). There is a specific reason that you are doing it that way.

The modern boxing guard is designed to maximize its usage in the ring under the current rules, ring size and glove size. It makes the most sense with those parameters. Once you start changing the parameters, what is "best" will also change over time depending on those parameters.

MMA is great, but we view it through the UFC style ruleset. When there was still Pride and UFC, you saw distinct approaches based on the environment and rule set (ring vs. octagon for one). When fighters went over to Pride or vice versa, they usually didn't fare well. We also view MMA through an American UFC lens, which is mainly comprised of Muay Thai/Boxing, Wrestling/BJJ. If you go around the world, you will see different arts being used successfully in different combinations.

So, when it comes to martial arts, they all adapt to what they are being used for and in the environment that they are designed for. Which is why some arts do much better than others. The closer to the ruleset and environment that an art competes in compared to what it was designed for, the better it will perform.
 
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JowGaWolf

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If you look at kata (speaking from a "karate" point of view, not familiar enough to state with clarity that kung fu does/does not do the same), there are MANY different "guard positions" in there. Many times you "get into a stance" and the hands are held a certain way (kamae). There is a specific reason that you are doing it that way.
Kung Fu has and uses different guards but it probably uses Long Guard for a longer period. For example, I can fight someone for an extended period of time with Long Guard.

Long Guard = I come to you, I control You, I interfere with you
Short Guard = I invite you, I respond to you, I invade you.

So depending on what the person's strategy is, it is possible for that person to spend quite a bit of time in long guard or they may flash cycle through various types of guards. To give you an example, Wang's Rhino technique uses two long guards. I use one long guard and one short guard, where my short guard backs up my long guard.

upload_2021-4-20_23-17-1-png.23788
 
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Martial D

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If you are doing this with the long guard then you are doing it incorrectly.

There are a limited number of ways that a fist can leave the chamber. Stop it before it reaches 50% and you'll stop most of what people throw. The sooner the better.
The one that moves first has a massive advantage. Sure if movements are telegraphed way in advance sure. Maybe. But the initiator has the where and when, which leaves you reading and reacting within the span of the shot, a beat. A tenth of a second.
 

Martial D

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You make it to be bigger than what it is. Don't make it complicated. Once you learn it, you will say "This is not exciting enough to be in a movie."
Man. I've worked hundreds of hours with a long guard. It's all good till things move fast and the other guy is good at punching.
 

isshinryuronin

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As with any guard position, it is a snapshot in time before contact has been made.

Many in TMA (and many non-TMA critics) do not understand this. Like some stances, these positions are transitory - to either facilitate a subsequent attack, or to entice an attack along an expected line, setting up a counter. It should be noted that in kata, some "kamae" are actually functional techniques.

An extended, or long, guard has the advantages of placing your weapons closer to the target, allowing you to intercept the opponent's attack sooner, and intercept it further up on the arm to serve as a more effective fulcrum for grabbing/locking leverage.

It does open your torso up, especially against lower kicks. The long guard is not good to defense these, so checking low kicks with one's own legs is an important tactical companion with this guard. It does present your hands/arms closer to the opponent for him to take advantage of as well. As in all things, there is good and bad. One just needs to be aware of, and understand, how their body is situated in relation to the opponent and the pros and cons of each position.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Long Guard = I come to you, I control You, I interfere with you
Short Guard = I invite you, I respond to you, I invade you.

Long guard = I open my side doors, invite hook punch to come around my arms.

kung-fu-guard.jpg


Short guard = I open my front door, invite jab, cross, and uppercut to come between my arms.

boxing-guard.jpg
 

JowGaWolf

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Sure if movements are telegraphed way in advance sure. Maybe. But the initiator has the where and when, which leaves you reading and reacting within the span of the shot, a beat. A tenth of a second.
Again all of this is possible. It's not some incredible thing that only top fighters and kung fu magic can do. Reading and reacting is a given. The human eye picks up things faster than a tenth of a second. You also react faster than a 10th of second on almost a daily basis. Have you had a bug fly within your field of vision and you suddenly turn to react to it. Have you ever placed a bag on a counter or table and observed the shifting of weight distribution of that bag.



Again you are making this stuff to be too amazing when it's not. I've shown videos of that 10th of second that you seem to think is out of reach. When it comes to martial arts, it's not the reaction time that an issue. The reaction time starts the moment your eyes and brain picks it up. The issue that most people struggle with is. "what to do next." If you don't think I'm tell you the truth then watch how people sometimes close their eyes well before a punch lands.

If you don't have a trained response, then your brain will try to figure out what to do next on the fly. That's where your time is getting eaten up. If I'm in my long guard then I already know what I'm doing to even if you don't punch.

1. If you punch, I'm going to control your elbow.
2. If you don't punch, I'm going to control your elbow.

One action for 2 different scenarios means I don't have to try to figure out which one fits the situation or my long guard.
 

JowGaWolf

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Man. I've worked hundreds of hours with a long guard. It's all good till things move fast and the other guy is good at punching.
I'm only telling you what I know and have personally used and have been successful with.

Faster punches shouldn't be a problem. Again don't make it difficult. If things are moving faster then you need to move faster too.

Also it doesn't matter how many hours you train if you still aren't grasping how it works. People train a technique for 20 years and still don't know how to apply it. So training for hundreds of hours for the most part isn't what you should be counting. If you train for hundreds of hours and still can't work the long guard then you should reflect on what you are doing and try to figure out why it's not working for you.

Try to figure out what is happening when it fails against faster punches.
 

JowGaWolf

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As in all things, there is good and bad. One just needs to be aware of, and understand, how their body is situated in relation to the opponent and the pros and cons of each position.
Exactly. You can cover the low attacks by lowering the stance as well. It doesn't have to be super low, but lowering the stance will make the opening smaller. A really low stance will eliminate it, but then your arms are now the things that would have to deal kicks which is a rough task. One that I don't get excited about.
 

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After Jim Corbett came on the scene with all that movement, the static style couldn't compete; simple as that. And boxers got lighter and lighter on their feet, slipped punches and the rest is history.
 

Martial D

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I'm only telling you what I know and have personally used and have been successful with.

Faster punches shouldn't be a problem. Again don't make it difficult. If things are moving faster then you need to move faster too.

Also it doesn't matter how many hours you train if you still aren't grasping how it works. People train a technique for 20 years and still don't know how to apply it. So training for hundreds of hours for the most part isn't what you should be counting. If you train for hundreds of hours and still can't work the long guard then you should reflect on what you are doing and try to figure out why it's not working for you.

Try to figure out what is happening when it fails against faster punches.
You missed the point. The initiator always has the advantage because they deal with 0 reaction time. While the one reacting needs to read the incoming strike, then move to intercept it. This means the one reacting needs to be magnitudes faster just to break even.
 
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