Why doesn't boxing, wrestling, and most Western fighting sports suffer from the Mcdojo phenomenon?

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
11,741
Reaction score
8,370
Location
Maui
I loved that job. Not as fun at the first store I worked at, which was on "The Ave" in Seattle. At the time, that place was pretty rough. Lots of homeless teens, drugs, etc going on in that area. Fortunately, a lot of the worst ruffians were my friends, but I was frequently asked to kick people out, break up fights, etc...

The second store I worked at was great... down on University Avenue, not too far away, but on the good side of Greek row. A lot of really pretty, frisky sorority girls going through the drive thru all the time. They would shamelessly objectify me, but at 16, I didn't mind at all.

In my senior year in high school, my family moved to Bainbridge Island. I was already enrolled at Garfield in Seattle, so we just sort of didn't tell them that we had moved. I would take the ferry across into Seattle, go to school (well, really, I would skip most days and hang out with my fellow delinquents), then work evenings at the Coleman Dock store literally in the ferry terminal and then just walk onto the ferry after work.

Those were pretty good times. After I graduated, I got a job as a dishwasher at a place called the Streamliner Diner on the Island. The other dishwasher was the drummer for Nirvana at the time, before they were really big. His name was Chad, and he and I got pretty messed up after work on many occasions.

My time on Bainbridge was relatively brief... was there for just over a year. But man, that was the most irresponsible year of my life. :)
Yeah, there were some years like that back then. Thankfully, we survived them.

My second job was pumping gas. Kinda fun for a kid, but in the pouring rain and freezing cold, it sucked. Then in a shoe store, then a clothing store. Suddenly I was one of the sharper dressed kids in high school.

First job in college I was Santa Claus. Fun gig. Lots of drunk college girls would come in on weekend nights to get their pic taken on Santa's lap. Next job was in a sub shop, I was there for a year, never made even one sub. My job was to answer the telephone in the back room and record sports bets.

Man, I had some crazy part time gigs in the early years.
 

lklawson

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
4,565
Reaction score
1,261
Location
Huber Heights, OH
That would be well into the period I'm talking about (which, admittedly, was pretty broad). I'm including the post-WWII GI's returning with their shodan. My recollection of the history is hazy, but wasn't that significant by the mid-50's?
Yes, it was. Particularly following the Korean conflict.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,637
Reaction score
1,192
On a related note, Rickson Gracie seems to agree with BJJ becoming McDonaldized;


Of course I think he's more upset that BJJ as a whole is moving on from his family.
 

Urban Trekker

Brown Belt
Joined
Apr 20, 2021
Messages
488
Reaction score
162
Location
Hampton, VA
It just occurred to me: while no one will deny the existence of TKD and hapkido McDojangs, I've only seen bullshido associated with Japanese and Chinese martial arts. I've never heard of Korean martial artists teaching dim mak, no-touch knockouts, etc.

Has anyone else? FWIW, that "mystique" that Westerners perceive in Asian cultures, in my observation, seems to only limited to Chinese, Japanese, and Indian cultures. This could explain why Korean bullshido would be a tougher sell. Same for FMA.
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,637
Reaction score
1,192
It just occurred to me: while no one will deny the existence of TKD and hapkido McDojangs, I've only seen bullshido associated with Japanese and Chinese martial arts. I've never heard of Korean martial artists teaching dim mak, no-touch knockouts, etc.

Has anyone else? FWIW, that "mystique" that Westerners perceive in Asian cultures, in my observation, seems to only limited to Chinese, Japanese, and Indian cultures. This could explain why Korean bullshido would be a tougher sell. Same for FMA.

TKD is pretty straight forward. It's a sport, so no one really thinks it's bullshido per se. I believe with the advent of MMA and some kick-based knock outs, the general consensus now is that TKD has some great kicks and you should combine those skills with some grappling and some hand striking.

Hapkido has never been widespread or popular enough to really be brought into the equation. I would say the majority of folks just haven't had enough experience with it to form an opinion one way or another. I will say that Combat Hapkido's anti MMA stuff is some of the funniest junk I've witnessed in a long time.

Though NOTHING will ever top Ving Tsun anti-grappling...
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
19,242
Reaction score
4,750
Location
Covington, WA
TKD is pretty straight forward. It's a sport, so no one really thinks it's bullshido per se. I believe with the advent of MMA and some kick-based knock outs, the general consensus now is that TKD has some great kicks and you should combine those skills with some grappling and some hand striking.

Hapkido has never been widespread or popular enough to really be brought into the equation. I would say the majority of folks just haven't had enough experience with it to form an opinion one way or another. I will say that Combat Hapkido's anti MMA stuff is some of the funniest junk I've witnessed in a long time.

Though NOTHING will ever top Ving Tsun anti-grappling...
Totally agree. Application keeps things honest. We may not like the application. We may also have varying opinions about whether the skills will transfer successfully outside of the application. But you cant say they dont apply what they learn, provided they are competing.

All that said, some schools are too deadly and seruousto compete, and thats a red flag.
 

isshinryuronin

Master Black Belt
Joined
Feb 28, 2019
Messages
1,069
Reaction score
978
Location
Las Vegas
It just occurred to me: while no one will deny the existence of TKD and hapkido McDojangs, I've only seen bullshido associated with Japanese and Chinese martial arts. I've never heard of Korean martial artists teaching dim mak, no-touch knockouts, etc.

Has anyone else? FWIW, that "mystique" that Westerners perceive in Asian cultures, in my observation, seems to only limited to Chinese, Japanese, and Indian cultures. This could explain why Korean bullshido would be a tougher sell. Same for FMA.
Interesting observation. Never thought about it before (that's why this site is valuable), but I may have a historical handle on it. The Indian MA culture exported to Shaolin had strong elements of Zen, and a few centuries later in China, Taoism played an even bigger part in their MA. Both these belief systems have what we'd call "mystical" qualities (although some of it was based on fact as most myths are). So the door was open for the exotic, esoteric beliefs you are talking about to take hold.

Most of this was lost during the next export event which was to Okinawa as it combined with their native MA, te. The Okinawans learning this new MA were mostly professional military or security agents, who IMO, were not as given to fanciful beliefs, depending on solid fighting skills for their life and livelihood.

The next link in the chain was the export from Okinawa to Japan. There, karate developed into a sport and health activity taught in the public schools and sponsored by the gov't. No need or incentive for "death touches." From there, it was exported to Korea and I believe was initially military, then sport based as well.

FMA was born in the jungle as a combat survival skill and also, I think, far removed from the philosophical influence of the mainland Orient.

This brings us to the Western version of karate which very soon became commercialized and profit based. Now there was an incentive to dig out all those ancient mystical techniques and, bolstered by the entertainment industry, found new life as "bullshido." At least, that's my take on it.
 
Last edited:

Rich Parsons

A Student of Martial Arts
Founding Member
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Oct 13, 2001
Messages
15,947
Reaction score
515
Location
Michigan
It just occurred to me: while no one will deny the existence of TKD and hapkido McDojangs, I've only seen bullshido associated with Japanese and Chinese martial arts. I've never heard of Korean martial artists teaching dim mak, no-touch knockouts, etc.

Has anyone else? FWIW, that "mystique" that Westerners perceive in Asian cultures, in my observation, seems to only limited to Chinese, Japanese, and Indian cultures. This could explain why Korean bullshido would be a tougher sell. Same for FMA.

As to FMA, there is theft if styles, claims originators stole to provide their fathers the credit, and yes there are some in the park in Manila that would fall into the Mall McDojo mindset.

And their mysticism (* Anting Anting *) is usually kept private and unknown so people don't know their secrets and try to counter.
No Disrespect to those who follow such a path, it is not part of the FMA's I teach.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,972
Reaction score
5,837
It just occurred to me: while no one will deny the existence of TKD and hapkido McDojangs, I've only seen bullshido associated with Japanese and Chinese martial arts. I've never heard of Korean martial artists teaching dim mak, no-touch knockouts, etc.

Has anyone else? FWIW, that "mystique" that Westerners perceive in Asian cultures, in my observation, seems to only limited to Chinese, Japanese, and Indian cultures. This could explain why Korean bullshido would be a tougher sell. Same for FMA.

I think there is a whole shtick they use that they invented everything.
 

WaterGal

Master of Arts
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
1,743
Reaction score
565
It just occurred to me: while no one will deny the existence of TKD and hapkido McDojangs, I've only seen bullshido associated with Japanese and Chinese martial arts. I've never heard of Korean martial artists teaching dim mak, no-touch knockouts, etc.

Has anyone else? FWIW, that "mystique" that Westerners perceive in Asian cultures, in my observation, seems to only limited to Chinese, Japanese, and Indian cultures. This could explain why Korean bullshido would be a tougher sell. Same for FMA.

Mmm. I don't think I've heard of Korean styles teaching no-touch knockouts and such, but I've definitely seen both some pretty dubious self-defense techniques and some very questionable claims about lineage and such.

For example, years ago, I was looking up TKD schools in a certain area for someone, and one school had a section on their website about how the school's Korean owner/grandmaster learned TKD from monks in a secret Buddhist monastary in the remote mountains of Korea in order to avenge his parents who were killed by gangsters. I think this same guy said that the monks taught him levitation. :rolleyes:

Edit: also, the commonly repeated claim that Taekwondo and/or Hapkido are thousands of years old ancient traditions of Korea. While that's not BS on the level of no-touch knockouts, it's still nonsense. They both postdate WWII.
 

ThatOneCanadian

Green Belt
Joined
May 14, 2021
Messages
123
Reaction score
72
Location
N/A
The reason is simple: boxing/wrestling/etc are very basic, while Karate/TKD/etc are very complicated. Harder to mess up something basic.

When I say basic, I do not mean unsophisticated or lesser; I just mean having an arsenal of a few good punches is more rudimentary than memorizing 26 katas.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,974
Reaction score
2,864
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
The reason is simple: boxing/wrestling/etc are very basic, while Karate/TKD/etc are very complicated. Harder to mess up something basic.
I can't speak for boxing, but IMO the wrestling art is much more complicate than Karate/TKD/etc.

The striking art require only 1 point contact. The wrestling art requires 2, or even 3 points contact such as to use your

- left hand to pull to the south direction.
- right hand to push to the west direction.
- right leg to spring to the east direction.

To coordinate your body to move into 3 different directions at the same time is much more complicate/difficult than to land a punch on someone's face.
 
Last edited:

ThatOneCanadian

Green Belt
Joined
May 14, 2021
Messages
123
Reaction score
72
Location
N/A
I can't speak for boxing, but IMO the wrestling art is much more complicate than Karate/TKD/etc.

The striking art require only 1 point contact. The wrestling art requires 2, or even 3 points contact such as to use your

- left hand to pull to the south direction.
- right hand to push to the west direction.
- right leg to spring to the east direction.

To coordinate your body to move into 3 different directions at the same time is much more complicate/difficult than to land a punch on someone's face.
This is very true. However, the very act of wrestling is indeed a natural instinct for humans. Throwing a proper roundhouse kick, on the other hand, not so much.
 

caped crusader

Brown Belt
Joined
Oct 2, 2021
Messages
403
Reaction score
121
owner/grandmaster learned TKD from monks in a secret Buddhist monastary in the remote mountains of Korea in order to avenge his parents who were killed by gangsters. I think this same guy said that the monks taught him levitation. :rolleyes:
Master Chu?;):D
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,974
Reaction score
2,864
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
the very act of wrestling is indeed a natural instinct for humans. Throwing a proper roundhouse kick, on the other hand, not so much.
One has to learn at least 30 different principles in order to be able to defense himself well on the wrestle mat.

(Si) - Tearing
撏(Beng) - Cracking
(Tong) - Striking push
銴(tun) - Hand pushing
(Zhou) - Elbow pressing
(Gai) - Covering hands
(Lou)- Pulling hands
(Yao) - Body-shaking hands
(Dao) - Reverse arm-holding
(Dou) Shaking
(Fen) - Separate hands
(Ye) - Hand tucking
撘(Yin) - Arm guiding
(Peng) - Arm raising
(Jia) - Elbow Locking
(Quan) Under hook
(Chao) - Over hook
(Mo) Wiping
(Pian) Head circling
憭(Jia) Clamping head
(Zai) Helmet removing
(Wu) Face covering
(Su) Forehead push
憓(Zhui) - Sticking drop
(Lao) Leg seize
(Huan) Neck surrounding
(Tuo) Chin pushing
撠(Feng) Throat/waist blocking
(Sa) Casting
憌(Piao) - Floating hand
 

lklawson

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
4,565
Reaction score
1,261
Location
Huber Heights, OH
On a related note, Rickson Gracie seems to agree with BJJ becoming McDonaldized;

I said this years ago and got shouted down by BJJ folks: "It isn't happening and never can happen because of how BJJ 'works'."

Of course I think he's more upset that BJJ as a whole is moving on from his family.
I pointed out an Open Letter written by Helio himself in Black Belt Magazine complaining about the watering down of BJJ and the lowering of standards. The BJJ folks <cough> "informed me" that it was just that Helio was butthurt over all the non-GJJ derivatives and how he didn't have control.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
Top