Why does it take so long to get a Black Belt in most systems?

[SpiritFists936]

why does it take so long to get a black belt in most martial arts systems? I mean when people find out it only usually takes 1 1/2 to 2 years to get a black belt in the system i take they freak out and say they have been in their system 6 years and still dont have a black belt. not to be concieted or anything but most of the time these 6 years vets arent even as good as our middle ranking belts, yet they have been in the martial arts 10 times longer, can someone explain this to me?

Thanks

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by SpiritFists936
why does it take so long to get a black belt in most martial arts systems? I mean when people find out it only usually takes 1 1/2 to 2 years to get a black belt in the system i take they freak out and say they have been in their system 6 years and still dont have a black belt. not to be concieted or anything but most of the time these 6 years vets arent even as good as our middle ranking belts, yet they have been in the martial arts 10 times longer, can someone explain this to me?

Thanks

Well it depends what your definition of "good" is. As I haven't met the people you have, I can't vouch for them. However, if the definition of good is how you spar, do forms/kata, or they just don't look "pretty" when doing their stuff, that may not be everybodies definition of good. Some people define good as far as self defense only, while others define good through sparring or how they may "look" doing forms to techs.

So what is good?

P.S.
A Mod may want to move this to General forum as this may not pertain to self defense.

 

[stickarts]

its also important to define the criteria for blackbelt! standards in one school usually differ from another! traditional schools do normally take longer, also many schools have minimum time requirements since being proficient in the material takes longer then just memorizing the moves.

 

[theletch1]

Although Shen Chuan is a "new art" in organization and concepts, the techniques are not the invention of Professor Lansdale. They have been part of the martial arts world for centuries. The Professor has added his own approach, concepts and principles to produce a self-defense system that can be taught rapidly and will allow the student to flow from one range to the next, with a special emphasis on the striking and locking aspects of the art. Shen Chuan is not designed to be used in tournaments. It can be adapted to full contact sports, but not without ample consideration, and is not meant for those purposes. It does not claim to be superior to any other art. Each art has its strengths.

This is from the Shen Chuan website that I found after reading your profile. It seems that the system you study was specifically designed by your grandmaster to taught at a faster speed than more "traditional" arts. I think if we took the time to BB from all the arts out there and averaged them up we'd wind up with 4 or 5 years as the average. Without starting a "my system takes this long" tangent to the thread I will say simply that many systems out there just require a good deal more time in before awarding a BB to a student. It really makes no difference to me how long someone has studied to make blackbelt so long as they feel that they have gotten what they needed from the style/system to get them to that level and they remember that blackbelt doesn't make you a master, just a student with a ton more to learn.

((I agree that this should be moved to the general MA forum))

 

[Eggman]

I believe that yes there are some gifted individuals out there who can earn a black belt in a few years when i hear schools pumping many students to black belt in such a short period of time, no i begin to worry. Worry only in the fact of all the false sense of security a BB given brings versus the BB earned. After a hiatus of training for a few years i restarted EPAK at green belt and took 4 years from that point of hard training to get my 1st. If my instructor would have said you need another 2 years or ten for the matter, no problem. What style are you in that everyone gets a BB in less than 2 years?

 

[SpiritFists936]

not everyone gets it in less than two years, that was an average, you only get it when you deserve it, as far as better goes sorry for the usage of the wrong word, i meant able to apply techniques. we have no sport aspects in our system its only self defense, sorry guess i should have explained it a little better, but this is my first time to thread something. I wasnt saying that Shen Chuan was better then any other art, i just didnt understand why it took so much longer to learn other systems, I am still a little unclear, but your posts have helped, Thanks!!

 

[Titan Uk]

I have known students who do not wish to progress through the belts of their style.
That does not mean that they are not learning anything when they go to class. They are still working through the system but they are not doing the gradings for the belts.
It does not matter how long it takes to get a bb but whether or not you are getting what you want out of the system.
Some people just want to get fit or build up confidence or what every they start out to achieve.
I agree that the belts are a good sign of what you have achieved and I would never give up my bb, which I have worked long and hard to get.

I was recently informed that a club was making students bb in less than a year inorder that you can then take over the running of that club and their instructor can move on to open another club to make more money.

 

[lvwhitebir]

It's just a matter of that style's requirements. I know of a school near me that takes 10-15 years to get a black sash. They don't do sport, nor do they even spar. It's a lot of forms. They don't train to be pretty with the forms either, but effective, going hard and fast through them. It takes something like 3 forms just to get your white sash.

Other schools don't have near the requirements and so you would be able to master them quicker. Take boxing for example, how long does it take to master 5 or 6 strikes? It doesn't mean you're a better or worse fighter or that the style is better or worse. It's just what it is. A lot of it is also what your definition of a "black sash student" is. Does it matter how long it takes as long as you're still growing and getting better? To me, it's not the goal, it's the journey.

WhiteBirch

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Chuck Norris got his black belt in something like 13 months...that was in Korea, training 30 hours a week. Joe Lewis did it in nine months...but that was in Okinawa in the Marines. On the Rock you either do physical training, or you drink. He didn't drink, obviously.

Still, I know of schools that award black belts to children at the age of six with only two years of training...two classes a week...each class one half hour long.

I don't go for that.

Two of my students took seven years...they stuck it out. Why so long? One was dyslexic. The other had neurological problems, motor coordination issues, and Asperger's syndrome. I'm proud of them.

Time in training never hurt anyone. Heck, it takes five years to get Eagle Scout...why not that amount of time for a black belt?

SCS

 

[Zepp]

The same ranks mean different things to different people. Comparing ranks between different systems and arts is a waste of time. In my primary art, the average time to get a black belt is 3-4 years of steady training. When I want to know how experienced someone is in a style I don't practice, I don't ask what their rank is. The better questions are "how long have you trained in it" and "how often do you train." That tells me much more about a person's level of skill.

 

[OULobo]

Right now I have been avoiding getting my black rank because I want to avoid the politics. I have been doing the instructor exercises, drills, techniques, ect. for some time and my instructor has mentioned testing me, but I have been able to get out of it. Ironicly, I think that black rank is the only one that counts and I don't even wear rank unless it is a formal event. Everyone at the school knows me and what I can do and new people find out very quickly. I agree with Zepp, you can't use rank as a valid comparison, because of the differance in training total time and training frequency.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by SpiritFists936
why does it take so long to get a black belt in most martial arts systems? I mean when people find out it only usually takes 1 1/2 to 2 years to get a black belt in the system i take they freak out and say they have been in their system 6 years and still dont have a black belt. not to be concieted or anything but most of the time these 6 years vets arent even as good as our middle ranking belts, yet they have been in the martial arts 10 times longer, can someone explain this to me?

Thanks

I can't speak for other systems, but in Sikal, it took me 4.5 years. The other 3 instructors in it took 5.5 years, 6.5 years, and 8 years. So the average (thus far) is about 6 years. The caveat to that is that the other 3 guys all had periods of time where they weren't as active (or had to quit training completely) for one reason or another - so that's one reason that they took longer than I did.

Having gone through the Shen Chuan curriculum from white to black belt, I can tell you this. It's a very streamlined (for lack of a better word) curriculum. Prof. Lansdale did a very good job of making it readily accessible to people.

But, as has been pointed out on this board and others, as well as by Prof. Lansdale in classes - the black belt isn't the measure. A black belt simply means that you've fulfilled the necessary requirements of the school you attend. Just like different high schools have different requirements, so do different MA schools. I compare a black belt to a high school diploma. It's a worthwhile achievement but, in the big picture and long term scheme of things, it's pretty trivial. What you do and learn after you get your black belt is more weighty (i.e.: analagous to college, post grad, and actual work experience).

What Prof. did with Shen Chuan was analagous to a "specialized" school. Let's use high schools as an example. Many MA schools are like standard high schools. They teach a variety of courses - to put it simply and in East Texas terms , "readin', writin', and 'rithmatic." What Prof. has done is create a specialized school where they focus specifically on writin' (Prof. being an author, I figure that's appropriate, though in MA lingo, Shen Chuan is specialized on self-defense). Obviously, it will take less time to learn one subject than to learn several.

Now, I know that there are several classes taught at Lansdale's school. But each is a very specialized curriculum with a very specific focus. But if someone were training, simultaneously, in Stickboxing, Streetboxing, and Shen Chuan, their progress would have to be slowed down (if for no other reason than the Stickboxing and Streetboxing classes overlap so they couldn't hit all the classes all the time - but most people would be slowed down regardless just because it'd take them longer to process it all). Or you can get a black belt in each sequentially. Either way, I would guess that, on average, it would take someone 4 - 6 years to get black belts in all three. That would be comparable to a black belt in some other schools where their main curriculum encompasses multiple aspects. What each covers will differ, of course. One may cover empty hands and weapons for self defense and sport. One may cover only empty hands but cover for self defense, sport, and health. One may cover grappling and stand up self defense with and without weapons. There are a lot of different possible combinations. And, as said before, each school will have different requirements.

I've probably gone way past "just" answering your question. But you know from first hand experience that I can talk up a storm without half trying

Mike

 

[Kroy]

Originally posted by OULobo
Right now I have been avoiding getting my black rank because I want to avoid the politics.

What kind of politics are you refering to?

 

[OULobo]

Originally posted by Kroy
What kind of politics are you refering to?

Sometimes there are cliques in the club, occational jealousy on who seems to have the instructor's attention, people who don't agree with teaching methods, ect. I'd imagine it's not that uncommon. The other issue is that BB's are required to do a ton of teaching and they really aren't given much in the way of new techniques or information. While I agree with helping to educate new students, I don't think it would come at the cost of the BB's potential.

 

[Kroy]

Understood:asian:

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by OULobo
The other issue is that BB's are required to do a ton of teaching and they really aren't given much in the way of new techniques or information. While I agree with helping to educate new students, I don't think it would come at the cost of the BB's potential.

Ahh - putting on "Devil's Advocate" hat - but new techniques and information aren't the only way to improve a BB's potential. Developing a deeper understanding of what he/she already knows is another way (and, in some ways develops more potential). And the best way to develop that deeper understanding is to teach.

Mike

 

[OULobo]

Originally posted by pesilat
Ahh - putting on "Devil's Advocate" hat - but new techniques and information aren't the only way to improve a BB's potential. Developing a deeper understanding of what he/she already knows is another way (and, in some ways develops more potential). And the best way to develop that deeper understanding is to teach.

Mike

While I agree with teaching both as spreading the art and in examining the fundamentals with a more experienced eye, I also think that improvment comes from training with those with more knowledge than me, and in teaching the basics; I lose touch with the more advanced techniques; miss opportunities to learn previously unseen information; miss the drilling and conditionoing that hone the skills I have already learned. I can reexamine the basics by going and participating in beginner's classes (which I try to do once a week or so). The only things that tempt me to become a BB is the freedom to teach when I wish and the tenative sense of closure (even thought my learning never ends).

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by OULobo
While I agree with teaching both as spreading the art and in examining the fundamentals with a more experienced eye, I also think that improvment comes from training with those with more knowledge than me, and in teaching the basics; I lose touch with the more advanced techniques; miss opportunities to learn previously unseen information; miss the drilling and conditionoing that hone the skills I have already learned.

You make it sound like once you reach black belt, all you'll do is teach and not learn. I own my own school and teach several classes a day, but I continue to train with my instructor and he with his. I read lots of books and buy lots of videos in order to acquire new skills and techniques which my instructor doesn't even know about.

If all you do is teach in your school once you reach black belt, then go to another school. I only require advanced rank students to have teaching experience, usually an hour or so a week. Unless your school is so different, I see no reason why you can't continue to train and learn while you teach.

WhiteBirch

 

[OULobo]

Originally posted by lvwhitebir
You make it sound like once you reach black belt, all you'll do is teach and not learn. I own my own school and teach several classes a day, but I continue to train with my instructor and he with his. I read lots of books and buy lots of videos in order to acquire new skills and techniques which my instructor doesn't even know about.

If all you do is teach in your school once you reach black belt, then go to another school. I only require advanced rank students to have teaching experience, usually an hour or so a week. Unless your school is so different, I see no reason why you can't continue to train and learn while you teach.

WhiteBirch

I'm sure the BBs are learning from their teaching, but during the classes I attend that's all they do (plus a little drilling and conditioning). There may be a "secret" BB class or something, but I doubt it. I pretty much do what you are suggesting. I read what I can (but that isn't the same as learning by doing) but I don't like the idea of learning from a video. There are too many nuances and other factors that I don't think can be seen on videos (plus there is no way to ask questions). I also go to as many seminars as I can afford, but they are expensive, few and far in between. I'm not with out options, I'm just of the opinion that I won't gain much getting a BB in this system.

The example I have been discussing is the case at one of the schools I attend. In the others I am too low in skill to even think about BB or rank isn't used .

 

[2fisted]

The 'Black Belt' means different things to different styles, too. For some it means that you're an 'expert' or something. My teacher was taught in Okinawa, and when he received his black belt, it only meant he was accepted as a student, so that true education in Goju-ryu could begin. So I can see how it would vary depending on the art one learns.