Why Challenge?

[Nyrotic]

Simple question, why does it seem that Chinese martial artists of old tend to always go around challenging other schools? Am I wrong? Is there more to this? Anything will be appreciated.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

Is that like legendary martial arts fgures or martial artists who train in old ways?

I remember researching Huo Juan Jia after getting hooked on Jet Li films (sad I know, but I found some interesting things out). I Learned that he beat up on 20 Japanese Judoka in a contest to prove that China wasn't as weak as the world was trying to portray it as. So he had like political motives.

Chinese aside, I know in Japan swordsmen duelled for priveledge, family prestige, personal reasons and schools used to fight to prove they were better than somewhere else and get more live in students.

 

[mook jong man]

I know there were a lot of challenge matches fought in Hong Kong in the fifties between wing chun and other styles our Sigung was in some of them and went undefeated .

I don't know who challenged who but they fought on the rooftops, no protective gear was worn, he also said he never hurt anyone he just controlled them and his longest bout lasted seven seconds.
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But going back a lot further than that i remember reading that if you wanted to set up a school in a village you had to set up a platform and take on all challengers for seven days if you weren't beaten then you could open your school.

I dont know why they challenged so much maybe it was to protect their income , if another master opens up a school in your town maybe you have to prove your style is better than theirs so all your students dont go running off to them and paying them fees.​

 

[zDom]

Yep: it was the UFC of ancient times

They did it for the same reason they fight in the UFC today:

to see what works

a way to build up credibility and thus a school/training gym

bragging rights

Oh.. and I'm sure entertainment for the spectators should be in there, too

 

[Empty Hands]

Simple question, why does it seem that Chinese martial artists of old tend to always go around challenging other schools?

It wasn't just the CMA guys. Challenge matches, territorial pissing contests, and flipping the **** out if a guy from another school "disrespected" you by coming into your dojo was common behavior in many arts. This sort of thing started dying out in the early 80's I think. Sifu Cornejo's stories from the old days are cringe inducing for the injury dished out on rather casual grounds.

 

[Andrew Green]

Now there are organized events for this sort of thing, tournaments, MMA competitions, kickboxing, etc.

The only real change is it is a little more organized

 

[Xue Sheng]

Part of establishing your own Martial Arts school in old China was to basically take on all comers to see if you had high level skill.

Go to where you want to open a school make the announcement and wait to see who shows up. If you beat all challengers then you opened your school if you didn't well no school for you. Of course after you were considered a master you would still get challenges. Read about Wang Xiangzhai or Chen Fa Ke sometime and that was not to long ago.

And you can still get challenge in China; they are just not as prevalent, public or for the same reasons.

This by the way went in Thailand in too, particularly if you were Chinese trying to open a martial arts school there.

EDIT

But a lot of what is out there is myth and/or sales. If all the masters in China where undefeated then who were they fighting?

 

[bowser666]

Well the true meaning of fighting others and other styles is for analysis of ones self. To see how effective your style and training is and to experiment. A true Master knows that there is always someone better. How is one to become Enlightened without doing this ? Anyone recall the bamboo story ?

Once there was a bamboo shoot that had jsut popped up out of the ground. It looked at the sky and smiled, and said to itself " Someone told me the sky is so high that it cannot be reached. I do not believe that to be true." The sprout was young and felt strong. It believed that if it kept growing , one day it woudl reach the sky. So it kept growing and growing. Ten years passed, then twenty. Again it looked at the sky and it did not feel or seem any closer. Finally it realized something , and started to bow down. The more it grew the lower it bowed.

Enjoy a old story

 

[tshadowchaser]

It wasn't just the CMA guys. Challenge matches, territorial pissing contests, and flipping the **** out if a guy from another school "disrespected" you by coming into your dojo was common behavior in many arts. This sort of thing started dying out in the early 80's I think.

true
I can bear witness to the above statement. It still goes on from time to time eveb in the USA but not nearly as often as it once did.
It did keep those with no real knowledge from opening or keeping open schools

 

[bowser666]

true
I can bear witness to the above statement. It still goes on from time to time eveb in the USA but not nearly as often as it once did.
It did keep those with no real knowledge from opening or keeping open schools

Just think if this was still going on, someone would have shut down the "Ki Master's " school long ago. HAHA.

 

[mook jong man]

Just think if this was still going on, someone would have shut down the "Ki Master's " school long ago. HAHA.

Yeah maybe it did serve a good purpose ,might have stopped some people from being ripped off.

 

[mograph]

Apparently, as recently as mid-20th century, if you wanted to open a school in Shanghai, you had to face challenges from the schools already present.

 

[Rabu]

Martial arts schools have always been businesses. Thats why students paid money, labor or some other tribute to teachers.

If you wanted to open a school, what better than to eliminate as much competition as possible by simply beating the other teachers unconscious.

From what I understand, it was more important to introduce yourself to the community and gain acceptance before opening a school. Otherwise you WERE inviting a fight from established teachers. It was a way of regulating the community.

As for schools simply taking challenges....as far as I understand, all chinese martial arts schools are open to some form of challenge unless certain circumstances were present, such as a period of mourning or celebration. (funerals, weddings...etc.)

Probably more story than truth to the majority of what you hear by word of mouth out there.

Rob

 

[mograph]

Of course, it's quite possible that a challenge was not to the point of injury or death. Depending on the level of the masters, it may have been a few pushes, where the loser then acknowledged the superior skill of the winner and bowed out.

I like to think so, anyway.

 

[tshadowchaser]

The Okinawians (SP) would beat arms. This was not always a challenge but could be a way for them to see the worth of the other person with out one or both ending in the hospital because of a fight.

 

[mograph]

I also like to think that when a local challenged the newcomer and was bested in some non-lethal way, everybody went to a bar and got drunk to welcome the new guy.

Well, that's what I'd do.

 

[JadeDragon3]

IMO the reason why there are or were challange matches was to help boost schools enrollment. In the old days it was a way to prove that your school was the best school to learn how to fight. People didn't want to go to a school that taught non practicle fighting skills. If a school chalanged another school and won it would make them look like they taught better fighting techniques. Just my oppinion.