Who's Poor?

[Bob Hubbard]

So, a discussion I had got me thinking. I, and all of us are rich.

I just came back from a Walmart that is the size of a 70's era mall. It had the -best- selection of videos, tvs, groceries and more than I've seen in ages.

I'm seeing new construction all around me.

I'm surrounded by an over abundance of stuff, food, clothes, toys, stuff I need and stuff I don't. Surrounded!

We (my wife and I) own over 1,000 dvd's. Have 5 working computers in my house, have high speed internet, 6 phones, a car, dvd players, tvs, vcrs, several printers, scanners and terrabytes of storage. We dine out regularly, eat shrimp, crab and lobster regularly. We do not lack for good nourishing healthy food. We care for our cats and lizard.

By comparison, my grandfather wore hand me downs, ate lard sandwiches, had no tv, no phone, and scraped by as a kid. 20 years ago a treat for the family was to buy a pizza.

Today we enjoy that a few times a month.

Shrimp was rare, and lobster was reserved for New Years, every other year.

Shrimp's a staple in my household.

No, I don't currently own a house, no I don't own either a mansion or a yacht, and no I don't jet set around the world.

But I can usually come and go as I please, can travel as needed, and know I'll be eating dinner tomorrow.

Compared to so many, in so many places, I am wealthy beyond their dreams.

Too often we get hung up on all stuff we don't have, that we forget how truly blessed we are, and how fortunate we are to live in a time and a place where we are surrounded by so much, and have so many choices.

 

[Sukerkin]

That view of relative increase in 'wealth' seems great ... until you realise where that wealth has come from.

I don't want to burst the 'positive message' of the thought but that 'Western' wealth has been bought at the impoverishment of much of the world.

The worst part of the 'shadow play' is that it is not sustainable - so enjoy it whilst you can because, unless we find a better way of living than Capitalism, it's going down the tubes all too soon.

 

[Ken Morgan]

How much of what you own was made in the US? In North America? in the West?

The unskilled manufacturing jobs that are overseas driving their respective economies, should be here creating wealth.

Sukerkin I know you're the economist amongst us, but i disagree that the West got rich off the backs of the redt of the world. Though I do agree our current form of capitalism is going to have to change radically. teh way we are going, the deindustrialization is hurting us way too much to be ignored much longer.

 

[MA-Caver]

I'm currently poorer than my father was when he was my age. I own a beat up 91 Jeep (second hand), an aging computer with a FAT monitor (compare to the skinny flat screens), all told my total remaining material possessions value to probably no more than less than $1000.00 (not including jeep and computer) I have no savings and a checking account that is regularly fed wages from a minimum wage job each week at less than 40 hours per week. I live with my parents and pay $200.00 a month and I usually eat out because I am unable to join my parents for dinner due to work schedule and my step-mother is about washing dishes only ONCE a day and not leaving any dirty ones in the sink.
Am I poor? By comparison of my father who at my age had 2 cars, a 3 bedroom fully furnished house, full time job that paid over $50K a year (with benefits)... umm yeah I am.
But as many of you have known me here during my time on MT my life has been mainly on that fine line of poor and destitute. :idunno: will it change? Who knows? Does it matter to me that it does? Well right now yes it does matter very much. I have someone in my life that I want to grow old with and I want to ensure that she (and I) are comfortable and living the dream of our own home and all that.
I am taking steps to ensure that is going to happen before I pop the question then do my damnest to ensure that it WILL happen... with her help.

Being poor isn't so bad... one learns very quickly and CLEARLY the value of money and the value of a dollar.

One also learns very quickly and CLEARLY the value of real friends.

 

[Big Don]

Shrimp would be a staple in my house, if I was a better cook.
Poor in the US still includes, in most cases, a home, air conditioning, a refrigerator, a microwave, car, cell phone, etc...
Poor in the third world includes SHOES...
There is a bit of a difference...

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Let me turn this around.
I don't own a car. I don't own a house. My apartment has substandard wiring, is way past dated and blows fuses (yes fuses) if I try to run the AC in the bedroom at the same time I try and toast bread. My TV is a tube tv, and my desk is a folding table. Carpet's 20 years old, tiles are chipped and missing in spots in the kitchen, and the only reason the toilet works is I won the argument for a replacement I paid for myself and did myself. Now that's depressing. If I continue, I could get much worse.

But we make our own reality.

I don't have the $$ to do alot of what I want, but, I have the freedom to do much of it. Seeing the wealth that is around me, rather than lament it's lack in my life, I am motivated to do what I have to to obtain more of it.

I prefer to buy local when possible. Beyond that, I look for quality.

My grandfather and I were discussing this and even he agreed. He's well off, compared to where he was. Took him years, but he got there.

I firmly believe that any one of us can be in a better place, if we would simply open our eyes to what is out there, then reach for it and claim it, by seeing the opportunity, seizing it, and making it ours.

Or dropping the new agey talk, by getting off our asses, doing our best, being our best and working for it.

I'm planning on buying a house next summer, and moving cross country to do it. Might not make it, but I'm damn well going to reach for it. I've got no doubt that everyone here can go as far if not farther.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Shrimp would be a staple in my house, if I was a better cook.
Poor in the US still includes, in most cases, a home, air conditioning, a refrigerator, a microwave, car, cell phone, etc...
Poor in the third world includes SHOES...
There is a bit of a difference...

Exactly. We ain't poor. We got food, shelter and shoes.

 

[Omar B]

No I'm not richer than my parents when they were the same age. When my father and mother were my age my dad was already a metallurgist working for one of the largest aluminum suppliers in the world (Alcoa), he owned 3 houses in 2 countries, a small trucking company, land in two countries, cows. My mother was an economist doing rather well too. But then compared to myself a year ago I'm not as well off, but then I did a lot of traveling, had to buy a car.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Since we're telling life stories, I am much better off then my parents. I make as much by myself as they did together, and I have a wife who makes 3/4 of what I do. I just bought a house which is at least 3 times as big as they had, though not valued as much due to how far it is from the major metro area. My parents owned a van and a car, both at least several years old when I was in my teens, and my wife and I own a truck and SUV, both bought new in 2002 (we have not gotten newer because we are enjoying not having car payments, but both vehicles were paid off before the loan due date).

Although we both work 40 hour weeks as did my parents, I only work three days a week, and she four, giving us more disposable free time. I currently have several hundred hours of vacation time on the books while still being able to take about three weeks of vacation every year for the past eight. My wife was able to take 4 months off when we had our baby without having to worry about income issues.

We are currently looking for land to buy in some out of the way place for when the fit hits the shan in this country. Ironic, isn't it.........

 

[stickarts]

Many of us walk around with a feeling of lack sometimes because we focus on what we want and don't have, but the truth is that we have so much to be thankful for. The trick is to wake up each day with a feeling of gratitude for what we do have.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Perception is reality.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Perception is reality.

Now that is the truth is it not!

 

[JDenver]

Interesting thread.

I'm in the process of moving so that I can live more simply. I don't have a cell phone. I have one broken TV, that I can still watch. I have a 10 year old DVD player.

I take great issue with places like Walmart, who are able to sell you something for a whopping $1 cheaper than anywhere else because of the exploitation mechanisms they are well known for. I refuse to shop there. I shop at my local stores, even though it costs me more.

I am not poor. I don't make much, by choice of my career, but am certainly not poor. Like many here, I consider myself very blessed.

thanks for the thread-great perspective pieces.

 

[Joab]

Thanks Bob, I broke my self imposed inactivity in this forum to write how much I liked your post. If we are not hungry, have clean running water, we are doing much better than millions around the world, we have a lot to be thankful for. That was a good post.

 

[girlbug2]

By world standards I am not poor by any means. I have never gone hungry or lacked the means for medical care and good clothing. I have enough disposable income to go to movies once in a while and indulge a few hobbies.

By subjective standards--comparing my lifestyle to my parents'--I am much poorer than they at my age. Their house was and is much bigger and in a nicer neighborhood, they could and do shop at pricier stores for their clothes, they could occasionally afford new vehicles (something I have yet to achieve).

By technological standards, all of us are immensely richer than our parents were at our age. They didn't have cell phones, blackberries, GPS, Dvd players, or internet access; cable tv was still considered a luxury by the previous generation, and so was having a second telephone line. Now, even people in poverty somehow manage to have these things.

So I suppose it really depends on how you define wealth.

 

[MuayThaiTrainingThailand]

If we leave physical asset (outside us) and turn angle look to inside us ( the way of thought) that might help. No bechmark for poor. We want more than we need. I do not want big house, I need small home. In Easthern which Third Country , We will always poor, but the way of thought might help us to appreciate life more. i am not a wise man nor life experience. Just my point of view.

Thanks for Good Thread

PS: sorry for my poor english.

 

[CoryKS]

That view of relative increase in 'wealth' seems great ... until you realise where that wealth has come from.

I don't want to burst the 'positive message' of the thought but that 'Western' wealth has been bought at the impoverishment of much of the world.

The worst part of the 'shadow play' is that it is not sustainable - so enjoy it whilst you can because, unless we find a better way of living than Capitalism, it's going down the tubes all too soon.

I would like to hear a clear explanation of how this works. I'm not arguing, it's just that I've heard this line so many times and it still doesn't ring true for me. What I'd most like to understand is how our wealth actually impoverishes others. Not how they have achieved less growth as compared to us, but how they actually regressed from the position they were in.

 

[KELLYG]

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/products/socind/inc-eco.htm

This is a list of annual incomes from around the world. Very enlightening.

I also would like to suggest a documentary. www.capitalismhitsthefan.com
I am not much of an economist but this helped me understand the current "Financial Crisis" and where it came from and where it is going. It show a span of time from the 1800 to current and examines American Capitalism.

Sukerkin has a point. I don't want to burst the 'positive message' of the thought but that 'Western' wealth has been bought at the impoverishment of much of the world.

 

[CoryKS]

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/products/socind/inc-eco.htm

This is a list of annual incomes from around the world. Very enlightening.

How so? It's a list of numbers. It shows no causation. For those countries with the small numbers, I would like to know how much higher they would be if we weren't doing whatever it is we're doing that is making them small.

I also would like to suggest a documentary. www.capitalismhitsthefan.com
I am not much of an economist but this helped me understand the current "Financial Crisis" and where it came from and where it is going. It show a span of time from the 1800 to current and examines American Capitalism.

Come learn about the problems with capitalism, only $19.95 plus tax. :rofl:

 

[KELLYG]

You can also look it up on utube for free!!!!