Where's the Beef?

[Nicholas82555]

I've noticed quite a few WC students competing against each
other, esp. other martial art disciplines depicting a lack form and
structure in delivering solid strikes with little conviction and power
(ie as seen on YouTube clips).

I have an old recording of 3 WC men from HK in the documentary
"Fighting Black Knights"- Mas Oyama's 1st World Championship Tournament.
The 3 WC men who represented WC literally got mopped by the Kyokushin
Karate participants.

I'm wondering was it a lack of self discipline, teaching, training,
dedication, commitment, scared of getting hit or what? I see alot of
them striking first and as quickly as possible without the form and
structure to deliver a meaning blow.

 

[almost a ghost]

They're doing it wrong. There, problem solved.

 

[KamonGuy2]

I've noticed quite a few WC students competing against each
other, esp. other martial art disciplines depicting a lack form and
structure in delivering solid strikes with little conviction and power
(ie as seen on YouTube clips).

I have an old recording of 3 WC men from HK in the documentary
"Fighting Black Knights"- Mas Oyama's 1st World Championship Tournament.
The 3 WC men who represented WC literally got mopped by the Kyokushin
Karate participants.

I'm wondering was it a lack of self discipline, teaching, training,
dedication, commitment, scared of getting hit or what? I see alot of
them striking first and as quickly as possible without the form and
structure to deliver a meaning blow.

I know the footage you mean. Its quite funny!

Its simply that in many traditional forms of wing chun, no one spars. And when I say spar, I dont mean chi sao etc. I mean putting on gloves and going at it. Whatever martial art you do, that is a true test of your skill - when somene is comingin with a lot of force and not a set punch.

The kyokushin guys used to train knockdown bouts all the time. Whether it be gloved or ungloved they would train this all the time. So although the wing chun guys were probably more senior/knowledgable on all the theory based stuff, when it actually came down to getting hit, they hadnt experienced that

I know that people are going to quote 'rooftop fighting' and 'chi sao' at me, but at the end of the day, it is not the same as having a guy throwing in big powerful and well controlled strikes.

These days, Im glad to say that a lot of wing chun schools do this. I know that most of the London schools glove up and go at it and pressure train

There is no doubt that there are some kyukoshinkai guys better than wing chun guys out there and vice versa

The last knockdown karate tournament I went to, I came third place (out of six guys) without getting knocked down and I was a beginner facing black belts. Similarly, I have seen extremely tough karate guys destroy people from other styles (including wing chun). That is why it is difficult to compare styles with the generic phrase 'which is better'?

It all comes down to length of time training, effectiveness of the art, ability of the student, arena that the contest is taking place, size/weight/age of the student, and many more factors

It is always nice seeing art vs art on youtube as you can take a lot from it. I genuinally enjoy watching the wing chunners get beat, purely because it shows what works within wing chun and what doesnt. There is a great clip of Royce Gracie vs a kung fu guy and there are instances where the kung fu guy was doing very well.

There is an interesting clip of a wing chun guy vs karate guy where they are in a ring and the wing chun guy basically slaps his opponent repeatedly until the karate guy gives up! It isnt great wing chun but it shows that putting pressure on can be effective

 

[blindsage]

"Fighting Black Knights"- Mas Oyama's 1st World Championship Tournament.

"Fighting Black Kings"

 

[mook jong man]

Yes I remember seeing that footage as well , but the problem with all this crap you see on you tube is you have no way of knowing the lineage of the people involved , how long they have been training or whether they have just rushed through the system and gained only a rudimentary level of skill.

From what I remember of the footage the guy looked like he couldn't punch his way out of a wet paper bag , this is usually because of a lack of stance ie ( too high in the stance , and not locked in at the waist ) and neglecting to train power on wall bags , punching bags , hand held shields etc.

Hopefully these days most of us are a bit more enlightened with our training methods and train a little bit more realistically in learning to generate force and overcome force.

 

[kaizasosei]

I agree with the last post as it really depends on the individuals in question, but gererally...
You can practice all you want, but it takes a fair bit of experience to know how to use striking effectively. Also, speed only takes you so far. After that, you need to understand slowness and timing-conviction i think is also a good word for it.
Obviously, the kyokushin will have more experience with contact, therefore will have an advantage over people that don't know the limits of their striking and how much punishment a body can take. But if the chuners were to practice with kyokushin for a few weeks, no doubt they would catch up.
Although the basic karate skills are irreplacable for me, I personally would favor wc over kyokushin as a martial art, but the contact sports will always have an edge for fighting because they tend to be more reality based. Well, one may say, what's up with sticky hands? surely that is the apex of contact in itself. Sure, the sticky hands is great contact in the physical sense, but i mean contact with strikes and receiving strikes in a realistic competative environment.
Not like one flamboyant 'master' who floors a bunch of helpless attacker students.


j

 

[Nicholas82555]

I want to thank u so much for the response u don't know how many WC Facebook sites I joined and no one would address this issue which I thought was important (atleast to me). Once again thanks.

 

[Nicholas82555]

Thanks for the reply. I was surprised to know that someone knew about the Mas Oyama tournament. I know we should never judge a book by their cover but those 3 WCnners were just downright pathetic. They didn't represent at all in my book. What was obvious was their lack of physical fitness.

 

[Nicholas82555]

If I could think of another word worse than pathetic it would apply to those WCnners. I think another drawback and to advocate gear is that alot of WC strikes are directed to the head. Bodyshots and punishment for Kyokushin is almost a given day in and day out but you confirmed my thoughts.

 

[geezer]

Thanks for the reply. I was surprised to know that someone knew about the Mas Oyama tournament. I know we should never judge a book by their cover but those 3 WCnners were just downright pathetic. They didn't represent at all in my book. What was obvious was their lack of physical fitness.[/quote]

I couldn't find the "Fighting Black Knights" clip on Youtube, but I did find another of "WC vs. Kyokushin" from the same tournament. It must be one of the so called WC "fighters" you are talking about. I think you summed it up well enough with the word pathetic.

Anyway, that set me off looking for other clips of WC and Kyokushin. I found a couple, and none of them featured solid WC. But regardless, I did notice that the so-called WC guys were mostly chain-punching to the body, which is pretty atypical. Is there a restriction against punching the head in Kyokushin? If so, that would make it a good deal harder on any chunner since we are an infighting style that heavily targets the head. If you are limited to body shots, the heavier reverse punches of Karate would be advantageous.

 

[mook jong man]

Thanks for the reply. I was surprised to know that someone knew about the Mas Oyama tournament. I know we should never judge a book by their cover but those 3 WCnners were just downright pathetic. They didn't represent at all in my book. What was obvious was their lack of physical fitness.[/quote]

I couldn't find the "Fighting Black Knights" clip on Youtube, but I did find another of "WC vs. Kyokushin" from the same tournament. It must be one of the so called WC "fighters" you are talking about. I think you summed it up well enough with the word pathetic.

Anyway, that set me off looking for other clips of WC and Kyokushin. I found a couple, and none of them featured solid WC. But regardless, I did notice that the so-called WC guys were mostly chain-punching to the body, which is pretty atypical. Is there a restriction against punching the head in Kyokushin? If so, that would make it a good deal harder on any chunner since we are an infighting style that heavily targets the head. If you are limited to body shots, the heavier reverse punches of Karate would be advantageous.

I understand what you are saying about the head punches being more damaging Geezer but it is my experience that properly trained Wing Chun guys who know how to punch with body weight combined with an ounce of aggression can really damage you with punches to the chest.
I've copped a few over the years and it felt like my sternum was being split apart.

It all comes down to the way they are trained , to generate sufficient force , the stance must be worked on , short range power worked on against equipment , focus mitts for speed and hand held kick shields for power.

Chi Sau can develop aggression and pain tolerance , but you must be taken out of your comfort zone of gentle rolling , and into the realm of Chi sau sparring where hard blows to the body are being exchanged and also breaking off and moving in and out of contact range so that visual reflexes can be developed as well as contact reflexes.

 

[l_uk3y]

I think a big part of the issue is that a lot of WC students mostly train against other WC students. Which is all well and good when you have 2 people with similar goals of getting in close and gaining contact.

Problem is all of a sudden your against someone with a different background whom doesn't like your preferred range and you have to focus more on closing the gap whilst the other system happily backpedals whilst firing off shots. (Big issue I found when crossing from WC over to my Hapkido/TKD school). Once you are in shots seem to come off easy. But you need to get there and then make the most of it)

To combat this I think WC schools need to focus on what they already do. However must add an additional element of fighting from an out of contact range and learning to be competant from range. That way they can play the "game" whilst waiting for that opportunity to get in there.

I think chi sau training is a fantastic tool to develop your close range reflex/contact fighting. If you get a really good ranged fighter whom wants to keep that range whilst firing out fakes and uncommitted or unpredictable attacks. They will be able to hold out that range if they have any experience. You need to be able to back yourself from that range before you can worry about getting in close for a more traditional WC approach

 

[KamonGuy2]

It is interesting going from an art that predominantly attacks the centre line to an art that predominantly attacks the body. When you think of head shots - the opponent can always lean backwards and avoid getting hit. With a bodyshot, the opponent cant just lean back, he has to move his whole body to avoid the strike. Next time you watch a boxing match, have a look at this, you will see the boxers ducking and weaving etc. They would not get away with this with a karate guy!!

By the way, this is not a karate is better than boxing thing. I usually compare boxers as they are pretty much the best punchers in the business.

I would love to watch an event where each style put forward someone of a pretty good skill level, and then let them go at it. It would be like that TV series 'The Deadliest Warrior'. It would be interesting to see gaps in each art etc

That is why the cage is not a good testing ground to prove a style is effective. The cagefighters today train all kinds of styles and use what works in the cage. To go in there with just one style would feel pretty naked. Back when UFC got started, it was almost like that (style vs style). Nowadays people say that a fighter favours the ground etc

 

[geezer]

business. I would love to watch an event where each style put forward someone of a pretty good skill level, and then let them go at it. It would be like that TV series 'The Deadliest Warrior'. It would be interesting to see gaps in each art etc.

A number of Roman emperors, as well as Mr. Han from Enter the Dragon had the same idea. History has given them a bad rap, but people really did turn out to watch the stuff...big time. You know with all the evil dictators around the world, you'd think that at least one would set up something like that. You know, serious no holds barred contests between all kinds of fighters with lavish rewards for the winners. We could all bemoan the immorality of it, while we watched the bouts on Youtube!

Or... how about a reality show, sort of a Survivor with martial arts. Pack a bunch of martial artists off to an island or someplace and have them fight for food and privelidges. Again, it would have to be done under the auspices of an evil dictator operating outside international law and social conventions. But you'd still be able to watch on video. Heck the US Supreme Court just said as much about "crush videos" which are way sicker than two guys (or girls) fighting. Maybe we should start a search for a sponsor. How about that Kim Il What's-his-name in North Korea? Or, hey, does Kaddafi like Martial Arts?

 

[bully]

I will email them both and see if they want to join the forum.

Will post their replies, if I don't get picked up by secret police in the middle of the night!!

Didn't Mr Han come right out of a comic book?

 

[Nicholas82555]

Fighting Black Knights is not on YouTube as far as I know. I have the documentary I recorded years ago. I'm going to Google to see if I can trackdown a copy and send you the 411. If not, I'll ask one of the techs at my job to download what I have on another VHS or CD and mail it to you at no cost.

Gonna search and let u know.

 

[Nicholas82555]

True, so true. Those WCnners from HK were weak at any rate. My grandson would have wreak havoc on them))

 

[Nicholas82555]

The documentary is actually called Fight Black Kings and can be found on Amazon.com..............there u go.

 

[blindsage]

Looks like it is on youtube, in 10 parts. Here's the first:

Here's the part with the kung-fu fighters @ 5:32 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUm5TkuE9t0&feature=related
It is apparent that they are not Wing Chun fighters, but I swear I've seen or heard that they were, maybe it says it on the cover info.

 

[dungeonworks]

I know the footage you mean. Its quite funny!

Its simply that in many traditional forms of wing chun, no one spars. And when I say spar, I dont mean chi sao etc. I mean putting on gloves and going at it. Whatever martial art you do, that is a true test of your skill - when somene is comingin with a lot of force and not a set punch.

The kyokushin guys used to train knockdown bouts all the time. Whether it be gloved or ungloved they would train this all the time. So although the wing chun guys were probably more senior/knowledgable on all the theory based stuff, when it actually came down to getting hit, they hadnt experienced that

I know that people are going to quote 'rooftop fighting' and 'chi sao' at me, but at the end of the day, it is not the same as having a guy throwing in big powerful and well controlled strikes.

These days, Im glad to say that a lot of wing chun schools do this. I know that most of the London schools glove up and go at it and pressure train

There is no doubt that there are some kyukoshinkai guys better than wing chun guys out there and vice versa

The last knockdown karate tournament I went to, I came third place (out of six guys) without getting knocked down and I was a beginner facing black belts. Similarly, I have seen extremely tough karate guys destroy people from other styles (including wing chun). That is why it is difficult to compare styles with the generic phrase 'which is better'?

It all comes down to length of time training, effectiveness of the art, ability of the student, arena that the contest is taking place, size/weight/age of the student, and many more factors

It is always nice seeing art vs art on youtube as you can take a lot from it. I genuinally enjoy watching the wing chunners get beat, purely because it shows what works within wing chun and what doesnt. There is a great clip of Royce Gracie vs a kung fu guy and there are instances where the kung fu guy was doing very well.

There is an interesting clip of a wing chun guy vs karate guy where they are in a ring and the wing chun guy basically slaps his opponent repeatedly until the karate guy gives up! It isnt great wing chun but it shows that putting pressure on can be effective

Kamon, do you know how many people here would like to use me in place of their personal Mook Jong for saying some (quoted in red) of what you just said??? :jediduel: :uhyeah: :ultracool