chi sau

[matsu]

sifu was away last nite so we had an open session and an advanced student kindly started me gently with my first roll in chi sau.... just blew my mind and after two years of constant progress i really feel like a beginner again.has anyone got some pearls of wisdom to divulge to help me on my path ..... the hill just got a lot steeper lol!thank youmatsu

 

[almost a ghost]

Pearls of wisdom? I can only tell you it's going be frustrating, aggravating and a **** load of fun.

 

[bully]

No tips as I'm rubbish, but nice to see you back on here.

 

[mook jong man]

sifu was away last nite so we had an open session and an advanced student kindly started me gently with my first roll in chi sau.... just blew my mind and after two years of constant progress i really feel like a beginner again.has anyone got some pearls of wisdom to divulge to help me on my path ..... the hill just got a lot steeper lol!thank youmatsu

Start from the ground up.

1. Check your stance , make sure you are sunk down enough.
2. Hips forward so as to lock upper and lower body at the waist , but not so much that the thighs become tense.
3. Exert a slight forward force from your elbows , but stay relaxed , don't use strength.
4. maintain the correct angle in your arms.
5. Keep wrist contact with partner.
6. Keep your wrists on centre and focused towards the partners centreline but try not to cross your hands over so that you can be easily trapped.
7. Don't drop your Tan Sau down , you will be vulnerable to being hit over the top of it with his Fook Sau. (especially against tall people)
8. Try not to allow your Fook Sau to get taken up too high , it can make you vulnerable to a palm strike from his Tan Sau ( again especially against tall people)
9. The reason being that you will have better leverage with the Fook Sau at a lower position as you won't have to try and redirect the strike down a longer distance , and your skeletal structure will have more resistance with your forearm in a lower position in relation to the partner rather than having the forearm directed up higher.

 

[matsu]

wow, thanks mookman!thats plenty to be getting on with.the girls at work thing i,m plain crazy standing in front of a mirror talking to myself whilst making funny shapes with my arms!nothing unusual there then!!matsu

 

[chisauking]

2 very good ways to improve your chisau...

1) Do more chisau with good people from outside your own club. All to often, people only stay within their own club limits. They get to know their prefered training partners so well, it's no longer spontaneous. It' all predictable & robotic.

2) Get a handycam and record your chisau\gwohsau sessions. You can analyse all your motions, which would tell you much about your chisau.

 

[matsu]

thanks bully i often think i should video my stuff but i think it would be too painful to watch lol!but it does make sense, my mate knocked 10 off his golf handicap recently and said it was down to the pain of watching himself swing on the video hs pro took of him!cheers buddymatsu

 

[dosk3n]

My little pearl is to keep focus on your elbow. Dont forget to keep them in. As with all things in this art try and keep a middle ground. Dont pull your elbow so far in you are slowed down but dont point your elbow outwards or you are open to attack.

 

[CRCAVirginia]

Am I understanding right? It took two years to begin Chi Sau?

 

[KamonGuy2]

CRCAVirginia - that is a standard thing in many schools in London (starting chi sao after two or three years of training)

I have trained with a lot of different students from all around the world and have found that the ones who are just thrown into chi sao from day one are missing very basic knowledge - especially in relation to structure

Good schools will make sure a student grasps basic concepts such as how to stand, how to relax, how to form shapes etc

It is like asking a beginner to spar with another person from day one without showing them any moves!! In most boxing clubs you are on the punchbag and skipping for the first few months (even years of training). It is only later when you spar. The same is true of chi sao. Sure, it is possible to get a roll going at beginner level, but it is incredibly long winded to then get technique and structure right doing it that way

Matsu - good on you buddy. Good to see you still have the passion for what you are doing. My advice to you would be to try and play with as many people as you can, slowly at first (no attacks) and work your positions. Positioning is everything in chi sao. People who get a little hit out are usually not that good at it. I once chi sao'd with a guy who was giving little taps (maliciously) to the ribs, not realising I had lined him up for a huge palm to the face. It would have been very easy to strike, but sometimes you just have to play and enjoy the roll. There is nothing to prove in chi sao

 

[CRCAVirginia]

Because you say it is standard, does it make it the only way or the right way?

My Sifu just had a seminar yesterday covering Chi Sau, we had many beginners there and they were doing fine. More experienced students were working with them and we all do the same drill at once. Are you telling me they did not learn anything?

What is your definition of "structure" ? The catch word of the WC world.

Nothing magical about Chi Sau training, just another drill you should be doing within a month of starting. By the way we have a school in London as well.

It is old fashioned thinking that you need to wait years to begin any drill or form for that matter.

The attitude that my way is the only way is really getting old and the reason I don't post on here often.

 

[blindsage]

But your post implies your way is the 'better' way, isn't that just as bad?

 

[chisauking]

If your school\kwoon takes 2-years' to get to chisau stage, don't walk away.

RUN!

During my seminars, I've shown people to chisau within 2-days. Some of the participants had not even been practising for more than a few months.

Wing chun is very easy to learn. It may take a long time to apply as intended, but learning the program is very easy with a good & generous teacher.

The ONLY reason I can think of for holding students back is: give me a M, give me an O, give me a N, give me an E, ...........oh, forget it, you get my meaning, lol.

 

[CRCAVirginia]

I never said my way is the only way. What I am saying is this: If I went to a WC school to learn WC I would not want to wait two years to learn Chi Sau nor do I think it takes two years of drilling to get to that point.

The first day of my BJJ I began rolling with my instructor, and not light rolling. We drill and than we spar. No difference in WC.

 

[matsu]

ooh opened a can of worms there huh!i am going to agree with kamonguy on this one. my sifu doesnt stop people learning chi sau, he too does seminars but it is not part of the curriculum untill you pass the second grading as is kicking.we spend a lot of time on single chi sau and lok sau,in a very different way to alot of schools.our chi sau is very differnt to most schools and he is constantly surprising people in china and hong kong when he is invited there to teach.one of his comments has been that although they teach it there from the beginning very few have the right ideas about its applications and its nuances. so we feel its better to get very strong basics and skills so that chi sau is learnt from a different level.if you guys are happy doing it your way then good for you.please dont be naive to think that just because we have a different way to yours that its not a great way to learn. i am happy with my progress over the past 2 years and i am privilged to learn under who i do(kamon knows who) and if he does it a certain way then thats my way too!i am trying to roll with as many people as i can within the club, we have 5 amazing sifus that are all very different and are all patient enough to help me being the clumsy numpty i feel like at this present moment in time. i also visit a sifu who doesnt teach as such ay more but will spend a couple of hours as a private session and once i have spent some time with him i know i can improve rapidl;ythank you for all your input matsu

 

[matsu]

If your school\kwoon takes 2-years' to get to chisau stage, don't walk away.

RUN!

During my seminars, I've shown people to chisau within 2-days. Some of the participants had not even been practising for more than a few months.

Wing chun is very easy to learn. It may take a long time to apply as intended, but learning the program is very easy with a good & generous teacher.

The ONLY reason I can think of for holding students back is: give me a M, give me an O, give me a N, give me an E, ...........oh, forget it, you get my meaning, lol.

i didnt want to confront but if you trained under my sifu i think you would have a different opinion of his way of doing things.and he does not do it for money,its a lifes work and he would like to pass on his wealth of knowledge to his students....end of!matsu

 

[chisauking]

Chisau is the very foundation of wing chun. From learning chisau, we are actually learning & honeing our wing chun tools.

For example, if we wanted to teach someone English, we must teach them the alphabet first so that they can start to form words.

Without learning the seeds of wing chun, which is tan, bong ,fook, wu in an integrated & interactive manner, how's it possible for you to learn wing chun? You have no foundation on which to base your art. These are your alphabet of wing chun.

Any way, I only bothered to respond in the hope that you are an open minded individual.

At you rate of learning, you may -- just may -- start to learn the look-dim-boon gwan in 30-years' time, lol. By then, it's all too late.

In truth, there's no edvidence at ALL to suggest this prolong method of teaching is efficient or effective against a fast learning program. Wing chun, after all, was conceived to be taught & learnt in a short space of time, and if one only starts the chisau journey after 2-years, how long would it take for one to complete the program (let alone sharpen it)?

In search of high level wing chun, I can honestly say I have virtually travelled the world. I've probably met & chisaued with more wing chun pracitioners than most, and I can honestly say I have not encountered one single teacher that takes 2-years to teach their students chisau.

Again, how you take this information is entirely up to you. Most people just bury their heads in the ground and continue to plod along, believing every word 'sifu sez'. The intelligent people will start to research & ask questions. However, I warn you, you may not like what you may find, considering it took you 2-years just to reach the basics of wing chun. The truth is sometimes painful.

Good luck in your (looooong) journey

 

[matsu]

we can agree to disagree about the importance of when chi sau should be introduced into someones training dude its fine.i dont believe it is the 'be all' of wing chun, it is simply another drill that teaches how the fundamentals of wing chun can be used to effect but they can be learnt in other ways as well!!...and i dont think wing chun can be taught quickly(esp to a clumsy 44yr old lol)... you can learn what to do, but only with practise and time can you actually do those things when you should and how you should(esp a clumsy 44yr old lol) ........and at that point do we learn chi sau.i know i will pick it up quicker with a true understanding of the what i am doing and with what i know already.i am indeed very open minded and i dont just believe what sifu sez blindly, i believe what i see and feel from my fellow students and instructors!!my sifu is highly regarded worldwide and to have him right on my doorstep is a "right peice of luck guv'nor" ...and its a privilige to train under him.thats not brown-nosing thats the facts...............................and lol if i was teaching someone english, the alphabet is the last place i would start.-i would not expect them to be able to learn whole paragraghs(chi sau) from day one.....i would teach them useful sentences(drills) and then when they were proficient(sp) i would then peice it all together into a paragraph(chi sau) and hope they would get that lightbulb moment and fly with it!thanks for your input mate .but truly i am not being blindly led by a shyster i am progressing very happily(at my age) under the tutleledge of a master of his art and i will continue to do so for as long as im capable.peace!matsu

 

[chisauking]

we can agree to disagree about the importance of when chi sau should be introduced into someones training dude its fine.i dont believe it is the 'be all' of wing chun, it is simply another drill that teaches how the fundamentals of wing chun can be used to effect but they can be learnt in other ways as well!!...and i dont think wing chun can be taught quickly(esp to a clumsy 44yr old lol)... you can learn what to do, but only with practise and time can you actually do those things when you should and how you should(esp a clumsy 44yr old lol) ........and at that point do we learn chi sau.i know i will pick it up quicker with a true understanding of the what i am doing and with what i know already.i am indeed very open minded and i dont just believe what sifu sez blindly, i believe what i see and feel from my fellow students and instructors!!my sifu is highly regarded worldwide and to have him right on my doorstep is a "right peice of luck guv'nor" ...and its a privilige to train under him.thats not brown-nosing thats the facts...............................and lol if i was teaching someone english, the alphabet is the last place i would start.-i would not expect them to be able to learn whole paragraghs(chi sau) from day one.....i would teach them useful sentences(drills) and then when they were proficient(sp) i would then peice it all together into a paragraph(chi sau) and hope they would get that lightbulb moment and fly with it!thanks for your input mate .but truly i am not being blindly led by a shyster i am progressing very happily(at my age) under the tutleledge of a master of his art and i will continue to do so for as long as im capable.peace!matsu

I will try to answer the points which I'd highlighted.

1) If you don't feel the actual practice of wing chun tools in an interactive manner is the 'be all' of wing chun, what do you personally think is? Also, what have you been practising for the past 2-years? Have you actually been attending class?
2) You say chisau is 'simply another drill' but that statement is true of every other training method.
3) What better ways can you think of that would teach the student possible applications of wing chun tools besides practicing the actual tools in an interactive and reciprocal manner?
4) Wing chun can be taught quickly, contrary to your belief. I have proven it to many, many people in the past.
5) You say you are 44, well this is more the reason why you should learn quickly. As we get older, our body won't be as strong as when we are younger, and also our recovery time takes a lot longer. If you leave things much longer, your body will struggle to cope with the intensity of training the weapons. Learning the complete system of wing chun is just the 'start'. It's only after you have the system does the real 'fun' begins.
6) You talk about 'the true understanding of what you are doing', but the true understanding only comes from the doing. If you are not doing, how can you understand? You won't get it by doing SLT for 2-years you know.
7) You say your sifu is 'highly regarded worldwide', this may be so, but what's more important is, by whom? The spice girls was also regarded highly worldwide by teeny waneebees, so what. Doesn't mean they produced good music.
8) You talk about 'sentence = drills', but how's it possible to form sentences without knowing the words first? You have an upside down way of thinking.
9) You talk about master, well all I can say is, if you see someone with the self imposed 'master' title, run even faster away. Only someone who feels they have nothing more to learn would bestow themselves the 'master' title. Either that, or it's another way to draw gullible students, lol. Even sigung Yip man, or the likes of WSL never claimed that they were masters, so for relatively young people to bestow the title of master upon themselves is a real indication of their intention, and it's usually connected with the $$$$$$ sign, lol.

Any way, I respect people's decision in life, so feel free to train how you see fit. My questions are merely an attemp to help people in finding their own way, and to get them to 'think' for themselves.

 

[matsu]

ok mate lets clarify a few things i said.....

sifu never uses master- that was my phrase- he is a master of his art in my opinion as indeed my boss at work is a master craftsman of his trade,again in my opinion.
he is regarded highly enough to be invited to teach at the biggest collection of wing chun practioners from all around the world every year in hong kong. not sure that happens to everyone- again this is what i learn from people around him and not from sifu himself.
you first used the analogy about letters of the alphabet i then tried to convert that analogy into a useable and practical way of illustrating how i have been taught.small steps.!! useable phrases(drills) which i then can build on into sentences(advanced drills-chi sau) into paragraphs(sparring) into conversations(competitions/fights)
it seems to me you think ive done nothing for the past two years...not from where im standing.i have drilled many different things in many different ways and learnt untold aplications!
i have gone from an unco-ordinatd ex karate sports practioner to an effective upclose and personal fighter using real wing chun skills and techniques even under tight pressure.
just because we dont do it the way you were taught or the way you teach so apparantly well doesnt mean that i am not being taught an effective wing chun system.....that would be very naive of you my friend!!
learning is a journey and i have had a great journey sofar and i am far from finished, even at 44!...
just because people can chi sau to a given standard does nt make them good at wing chun or that they understand the principles or applications of what they can do in a set framework-after all we both agree its just a drill..
i,m gonna leave it there as we will go around in circles. thank u for your input and i do see what you are trying to "help" me with but i think your perception of the wing chun i study is slightly distorted.

oh and who the hell regarded the spice girls highly???
no-one i know for sure..... altho mel B is looking serioulsy fit at the mo!!!
peace
matsu