Where did the real Karate go?

[RRouuselot]

Reminds me of a Sonny China movie. i think he had portrayed a Mas charecter. He had entered a tourney a won first place. But he wasnt there for the win. he was there ti see what happened to old verses ctourney. Anyway, another practitoner was there and was impressed. He followed out telling him he forgot his trophy. Chiba asked what the trophy was for. The other guy said it was to show he was the best in Karate. Chiba smashed it on the gruond and said the best at "Karate Dancing". Or something like this. Anyone know the movie?

It was all part of the “Oyama Marketing Machine”……most, if not all, of the events in the movie never happened. Sonny Chiba leaves a lot to be desired as a martial artist as well.

All in all a pretty silly flick.

 

[47MartialMan]

Well, I wasnt looking for a review, but the title to the movie and the idea that the charecter did not like tournies.

 

[evenflow1121]

I thought he had a 4th degree black belt in some form of karate.

 

[BruceCalkins]

1)No I think it has been killed by over ranked “Soke” that can’t stick with any one art for a length of time to learn much and then form some martial art claiming it is a better mouse trap.

2)For who? People like wannnbe Soke?

3)By this comment you show your lack of understanding of martial arts.

4) Again, you show your lack of knowledge by these comments.

5)Great…. people with little or know training developing kata & techniques. That is just dumb.

If anything statements like these show Great lack of knowledge of the Martial Arts Bushido Code and Ways of Life. I see that this person has no respect for anyone but himself and little knowledge of history of the arts except in his opinion. If it is not the way he likes it everyone else is wrong or lacks knowledge. I think he is the one who needs to study more and learn the true meaning of the ART.

 

[47MartialMan]

If anything statements like these show Great lack of knowledge of the Martial Arts Bushido Code and Ways of Life. I see that this person has no respect for anyone but himself and little knowledge of history of the arts except in his opinion. If it is not the way he likes it everyone else is wrong or lacks knowledge. I think he is the one who needs to study more and learn the true meaning of the ART.

How true, as if such a person actually practices "Real Karate"

 

[clfsean]

If anything statements like these show Great lack of knowledge of the Martial Arts Bushido Code and Ways of Life. I see that this person has no respect for anyone but himself and little knowledge of history of the arts except in his opinion. If it is not the way he likes it everyone else is wrong or lacks knowledge. I think he is the one who needs to study more and learn the true meaning of the ART.

Actually it's more like somebody calling...

:bs:

 

[47MartialMan]

Actually it's more like somebody calling...

:bs:

But, to state someone is BS? Perhaps in their own mind, they have a certain belief or was lead to a certain belief. Is anyone to truely stand judgement on what is BS in accordance to what another believes? Is this forum about providing information as well as opinion? And such opinions have limitations on what is deemed negative or hurtful?

Sticking in relation to the thread, "Real Karate" may be what one is practicing. There are certain "realities" to their art. And can there be "Real Karate" given that it was taken from another source or foundation? Can "Real Karate" actulaly exist because it came from somewhere else and the name was changed?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

There is an old statement: "Opinions are like *******s. Everyone has one, and they all stink." This often seems true.

Everyone here is entitled to their own opinions.
They can express them, as long as said expression does not violate this sites rules.
They can express them even if they are wrong, or unpopular.

Case in point: "Karate"
"Karate" is both a generic term for all martial arts and a specific art with a destinctive cultural identity. It's meaning changes depending on your opinion, which is based on ones own experience.

My own opinion is that "Karate" is generic, like Xerox and Klenex have become. Other terms and concepts however, aren't generic, but specific.

"Real" Karate still exists, but it's often not called "Karate" any more...sometimes it's not even Japanese. Every art/style/school has it's "show off" people (the ones with all the belts, stripes, paper, etc) and it has it's "Serious" players, the ones that train intensely, hard, and full out. The "Eye Candys" pay the rent, but it's often the "hard core" ones that go on to truely preserve the art. IMHO.

 

[RRouuselot]

1)[font=&quot] [/font]If anything statements like these show Great lack of knowledge of the Martial Arts Bushido Code and Ways of Life.

2)[font=&quot] [/font]I see that this person has no respect for anyone but himself and little knowledge of history of the arts except in his opinion. If it is not the way he likes it everyone else is wrong or lacks knowledge. I think he is the one who needs to study more and learn the true meaning of the ART.

1)[font=&quot] [/font]Bushido Code?? Are you talking about the book written by Nitobe?

2)[font=&quot] [/font]Ahhhh and here it is at last…..can’t defend your opinion so whine about character.

 

[47MartialMan]

1.)There is an old statement: "Opinions are like *******s. Everyone has one, and they all stink." This often seems true.

Everyone here is entitled to their own opinions.
They can express them, as long as said expression does not violate this sites rules.
They can express them even if they are wrong, or unpopular.

2.) Case in point: "Karate"
"Karate" is both a generic term for all martial arts and a specific art with a destinctive cultural identity. It's meaning changes depending on your opinion, which is based on ones own experience.

3.)My own opinion is that "Karate" is generic, like Xerox and Klenex have become. Other terms and concepts however, aren't generic, but specific.

4.)"Real" Karate still exists, but it's often not called "Karate" any more...sometimes it's not even Japanese. Every art/style/school has it's "show off" people (the ones with all the belts, stripes, paper, etc) and it has it's "Serious" players, the ones that train intensely, hard, and full out. The "Eye Candys" pay the rent, but it's often the "hard core" ones that go on to truely preserve the art. IMHO.

1.) How true. But a opinion, by some definitions, pending reference, is a belief or conclusion held in confidence, but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof. (So is this to state that none are turely correct or wrong?)

Opinions that are expressed un-popular, have a tendancy to create controversy, which such at times, have the thread go off topic.

2.) Given that it changes per opinion, then in one's opinion, it could be any empty hand art with similiar tactics. Per if it is to be of a specific origin, then it actual foundations could have been from another. Also, given the very name, which was changed from another art/origin, then how can it stilll be real. Is "real" to also be considered as authentic?

3.) Specific vs generics. That is interesting. In what terms are "specific" for example(s)?

4.) So true about hard core people. But can such person, whom believes that their art is Karate, truely be practicing within their own realism? in other words, because they are not or maintain, in the origin, lineage, rank, or etc., is what they do less than "real"?

 

[clfsean]

Here go the circlular questions... again...

:disgust: :feedtroll

 

[arnisador]

Karate has, sadly, become a fairly generic term in the US. I don't know why it happened to Karate but not to Kung Fu, which still implies a Chinese (descended) system.

 

[47MartialMan]

Karate has, sadly, become a fairly generic term in the US. I don't know why it happened to Karate but not to Kung Fu, which still implies a Chinese (descended) system.

Hmmn, perhaps through media sources?

 

[RRouuselot]

Karate has, sadly, become a fairly generic term in the US. I don't know why it happened to Karate but not to Kung Fu, which still implies a Chinese (descended) system.

Maybe it’s because some dim-witted people think all punching and kicking arts are the same and it’s easy to bounce from one to another………

 

[47MartialMan]

Pending on one's view, or what one has come to believe, makes them so?

Some may never be as educated or shown other views.

A lot of inconsistancies develop and before the "almighty internet", it was hard to over-turn or filter such.

According to the thread, is "real" synonymous with "authentic"?

 

[RRouuselot]

How true, as if such a person actually practices "Real Karate"

Interesting comment coming from a guy who studied from a teacher that uses a fake Japanese name not only for himself but a fake name for his art as well.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Quotes from various people posting and my thoughts on the posts.

Over the past several years I have seen real Karate replaced with acrobatics, loud screaming, (not to be confused with kiai) bad sportsmanship, arrogant instructors or coaches and deplorable conduct by parents.

I can agree with this to a point. Egos and bad sportsmanship have alway been in the tournament circut in the USA. Arrogant instructors where always around also . the difference is they used to be able to back up their arrogence with knowledge and ability.

The "real deal" is still kicking around, believe me. You just have to go to the right tournaments I think.

This I totaly agree with. But even in these tournaments you will find the acrobatics and load Screaming . The diffence is they do'nt win.

Kata competition is a beautiful thing to watch when its done seriously. I have no idea how it could've become so warped like you described.

Again ego and the " if its a triple back flip and a twirling whatever it must be more effective than a good solid stance and a reverse punch" attitude by those that succumb to audience pressure.

Originally kata performance was meant as a way to demonstrate one’s knowledge/understanding of the kata as well as “kime” = focus, power, speed, and “spirit”……

This make sence when you think of what the katas where ment to show

If it is a performance art as you say, then it should not be called a martial art.

Thats what I belive also. By that I mean all the flips and screaming and BS done today to impress

We were kind of crazy in some ways. My first dojo (1962) had no heat in the winter and of course no A/C in the summer.

Sounds about right for many of the old school back in those days. No mats. mirrors, floors that where sometimes warped, work outs in the parking lots, etc.

I used to go to judge and see old friends. But as time went on I became more disillusioned with what I was seeing.

This may be a verry common feeling among those from the old days. However going back into the tournament circut and showing what it is/was all about can also help to correct the problem sometimes because there just might be someone else in the stands that remembers and they may decide to come back to help put reality back into tournaments.

Real Karate may only be in the mind of the beholder but some of the old timers remember when tournaments left no doubt who won (trophy or not) and karta was done with a persons hart as well as their body and mind. Training was more inportant than any tournament. dedication to your instructor was upmost and you didn't go changeing styles, instructors, and organisations for rank.
Knowledge was given, in time, to those that deserved it, not to any fool that walked in the door and demanded it. Sadly htese traits are not as common as they once where. IMHO
Sheldon

 

[47MartialMan]

Interesting comment coming from a guy who studied from a teacher that uses a fake Japanese name not only for himself but a fake name for his art as well.

Live and learn....

 

[RRouuselot]

Live and learn....

Your profile says “freelance” which is not very helpful

So what art do you actually train in now?

You have also mentioned your “students”…..what art do you teach?

 

[47MartialMan]

1.) Sounds about right for many of the old school back in those days. No mats. mirrors, floors that where sometimes warped, work outs in the parking lots, etc.



2.)This may be a verry common feeling among those from the old days. However going back into the tournament circut and showing what it is/was all about can also help to correct the problem sometimes because there just might be someone else in the stands that remembers and they may decide to come back to help put reality back into tournaments.


3.) Real Karate may only be in the mind of the beholder but some of the old timers remember when tournaments left no doubt who won (trophy or not) and karta was done with a persons hart as well as their body and mind. Training was more inportant than any tournament. dedication to your instructor was upmost and you didn't go changeing styles, instructors, and organisations for rank.

4.) Knowledge was given, in time, to those that deserved it, not to any fool that walked in the door and demanded it. Sadly htese traits are not as common as they once where. IMHO
Sheldon

1.) You forgot workouts in parks and playgrounds

2.) They can't cause it won't "sell":shrug:

3.) Yes, the good old days.....but there were some cons to those days.

4.) Yes demand it from flashing the "green backs"