When the kata is applied to self defense

[Dirty Dog]

The difference being that extensive kata practice has yet to yield any verifiable evidence of more advanced fighting ability. In fact, the evidence would show the opposite to be true.

You seem to be confusing "[your] personal opinion" with "evidence."

 

[now disabled]

@Hanzou

Take this analogy

Soldiers ... They do foot drill, weapons drill, Range practice, Weapon disassembly and reassembly, section attacks, company assault et al , battle camps etc......................

Now Those are all basics and forms (esp the foot dill, disassembly/reassembly section attacks) ie Kihon waza and Kata ................. they aren't called that but that is what they are now from them there is and has been analysis to obtain the techniques that are used to fight etc ie bunkai (ok bunkai is a bit wider possibly) and by learning the forms (kata) getting them down to a Tee and then the techs that lead from them (kihon waza) then they are analysed (bunkai) you then produce a fighting man/woman... and get verifiable results ........... make sense in those terms?

So saying anything that (MA) is Kata based etc and saying tey do not produce verifiable results is far from the case and in the Japanese context I would be fairly sure that the Koryu schools would argue fairly convincingly that the have produced results.

Maybe what is not being made clear is if when you are doing Kata or Kihon waza and you do not see where the application is or how then that is when instead of saying no it doesn't work or not that useless ....ask the teacher they will then be able to explain and show you

Also if you want to be effective and get verifiable results (as you put it) then first you learn the basic forms then the basic tech then you analyse and take from there. After all that is done then you learn the tweaks and the nuances and there by the full applications, you don't learn the shortcuts first.

It is very easy to look on you tube and see vids that in which it may not be readily recognizable as to what the end result is so be aware of that before jumping either on band wagons or to conclusions and also if you have not studied that art then bluntly how do you know, unless you are going on others opinions (now that opinion may be good or it may be flawed, as in they either did not like or bluntly couldn't do)

 

[Hanzou]

You seem to be confusing "[your] personal opinion" with "evidence."

The evidence being traditional martial artists currently getting stomped by non-traditional and combat sport martial artists on a fairly consistent basis for the better part of a century. That certainly isn't my opinion.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You seem to be confusing "[your] personal opinion" with "evidence."

Im curious. Is there any actual evidence that kata, or mitt training, or sparring, or any other specific part of training makes someone a better fighter? When i say evidence i dont just mean "oh its common sense" or "look at X fighter" i mean an actual scientific study to find out what training methods are more effective?

That question isnt just to you, im just replying to yours since thats what put the question in my mind.

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah it was really weird cos the guy was good.

Probably a bit more than kata there though.

He's definitely had cross-training in Bjj. He even uses Bjj terminology in the video. I did Karate for a long time, and we never did any ground fighting. The idea that ground fighting is hidden in the kata is laughable, and nothing more than a sales gimmick.

 

[Hanzou]

That statement is somewhat misguided,

Are you now suggesting that Koryu did not produce advanced fighters? ...........again a little research may be in order

Advanced Koryu fighters were produced via actual warfare, not from kata or form practice. Any time someone says that their sensei from a bygone age was some superman that could kill 20 men with the thrust of their fist you should view that person as someone who drank the kool-aid.

Additionally, there's plenty of videos of "legendary" traditional martial artists fighting on rooftops and rings displaying their fighting prowess, and it doesn't look good. It literally looks like two grown men slapping each other.

Which is what happens when all you train is kata and forms, and not actual combat.

 

[now disabled]

He's definitely had cross-training in Bjj. He even uses Bjj terminology in the video. I did Karate for a long time, and we never did any ground fighting. The idea that ground fighting is hidden in the kata is laughable, and nothing more than a sales gimmick.

You really are stating just your opinion and ignoring things totally and completely ..................as for people getting their asses stomped where are you basing that on again ....You tube ???

And you still are avoiding answering any questions I put to you .....

 

[now disabled]

Advanced Koryu fighters were produced via actual warfare, not from kata or form practice. Any time someone says that their sensei from a bygone age was some superman that could kill 20 men with the thrust of their fist you should view that person as someone who drank the kool-aid.

Additionally, there's plenty of videos of "legendary" traditional martial artists fighting on rooftops and rings displaying their fighting prowess, and it doesn't look good. It literally looks like two grown men slapping each other.

Which is what happens when all you train is kata and forms, and not actual combat.

Your just making me laugh now ............you really do not have a grasp of how MA works at all and are basing all on You tube and videos


Pray do tell is the fighters from the past didn't learn from kata etc how did they learn ?

And what is your solution to all you see as wrong?.....I would be really interested in that


(Oh and btw that vid you posted and got all het up about Watanabe shihan well ummm your info was not correct .....so again beware of posting and saying things before you do the research .....)

 

[Hanzou]

You really are stating just your opinion and ignoring things totally and completely ..................as for people getting their asses stomped where are you basing that on again ....You tube ???

Stating that Karateka traditionally don't roll on the ground and utilize the guard and Bjj transitions isn't an opinion. In fact, I fondly remember my Karate teacher telling us that "dogs fight on the ground, and we're not dogs" right after the first UFC way back in the day.

As for traditional martial artists getting stomped, yes we're using Youtube today, but it isn't exactly a new occurrence. Again, it's been happening for the better part of a century.

And you still are avoiding answering any questions I put to you .....

What questions?

 

[Hanzou]

Your just making me laugh now ............you really do not have a grasp of how MA works at all and are basing all on You tube and videos


Pray do tell is the fighters from the past didn't learn from kata etc how did they learn ?

Where did I say that they didn't learn from Kata?

And what is your solution to all you see as wrong?.....I would be really interested in that

Cross training. I wouldn't waste time trying to change traditional arts. A better use of your time would be spent learning boxing, wrestling, bjj, MMA, or similar arts.

(Oh and btw that vid you posted and got all het up about Watanabe shihan well ummm your info was not correct .....so again beware of posting and saying things before you do the research .....)

And what info was incorrect exactly?

 

[now disabled]

Stating that Karateka traditionally don't roll on the ground and utilize the guard and Bjj transitions isn't an opinion. In fact, I fondly remember my Karate teacher telling us that "dogs fight on the ground, and we're not dogs" right after the first UFC way back in the day.

As for traditional martial artists getting stomped, yes we're using Youtube today, but it isn't exactly a new occurrence. Again, it's been happening for the better part of a century.



What questions?

Honestly just stop your digging yourself into a mighty deep hole

Basing on you tube ok ....really smart idea ....not, really you are jumping around like a hen on a hot griddle stating this that and the other your comparing sport to trad arts ...your saying that everyone agrees with your views ....etc etc etc you even said that due to the like you must be right ................your not lol....and you do (blunt) show a lack of insight into what things actually are etc yet you are booming off like you know .... you really are digging a hole .... if you want to pick a specific Kata or Kihon waza that you think shows a good example of things not working then do so ....infact pick several from all the arts you have said you don't like etc and I am sure there will be people on here that can state what they are the base for and how they applied .... there ya go back to you tube .... and if you have footage of trad artists on roof tops getting their asses kicked then I'd like to see them and I don't mean competitions ...go post them and back up your claims


And UFC oh get real that is sport .....


Questions lol..... Do you know what all the terms you are using actually mean ? and the context your using same?

 

[now disabled]

Where did I say that they didn't learn from Kata?



Cross training. I wouldn't waste time trying to change traditional arts. A better use of your time would be spent learning boxing, wrestling, bjj, MMA, or similar arts.



And what info was incorrect exactly?

Thanks for the advice

what was incorrect ......well he is not active as such and guess what he has fallen from grace ..... now that is not hard to find out about if you know who and where to look ................and the vid you posted was for your info not taken in the Aikikai hombu ...and that means neither of the two training halls ok before you start saying and claiming that ........ research before booming of

 

[now disabled]

I wouldn't waste time trying to change traditional arts

I'd suggest then you stop bashing the trad arts and making statements about them that are not true or accurate

 

[Dirty Dog]

Im curious. Is there any actual evidence that kata, or mitt training, or sparring, or any other specific part of training makes someone a better fighter? When i say evidence i dont just mean "oh its common sense" or "look at X fighter" i mean an actual scientific study to find out what training methods are more effective?

That question isnt just to you, im just replying to yours since thats what put the question in my mind.

Not that I am aware of, no.

 

[Hanzou]

Honestly just stop your digging yourself into a mighty deep hole

Basing on you tube ok ....really smart idea ...

.

So you honestly believe that video recordings aren't evidence?

not, really you are jumping around like a hen on a hot griddle stating this that and the other your comparing sport to trad arts ...

That's quite a bit of projection on your part.[/quote]

your saying that everyone agrees with your views ....etc etc etc you even said that due to the like you must be right ................

I never said either of those statements.

your not lol....and you do (blunt) show a lack of insight into what things actually are etc yet you are booming off like you know .... you really are digging a hole .... if you want to pick a specific Kata or Kihon waza that you think shows a good example of things not working then do so ....infact pick several from all the arts you have said you don't like etc and I am sure there will be people on here that can state what they are the base for and how they applied .... there ya go back to you tube ....

Howabout you choose a kata that actually shows things working, and we can go from there?

and if you have footage of trad artists on roof tops getting their asses kicked then I'd like to see them and I don't mean competitions ...go post them and back up your claims

I thought you didn't like YouTube being used as evidence... You now want me to post a video from YouTube as evidence?

Interesting.

And UFC oh get real that is sport .....

The first UFCs weren't sports. They were combat exhibitions.

Questions lol..... Do you know what all the terms you are using actually mean ? and the context your using same?

Yes. Next question.

 

[now disabled]

So you honestly believe that video recordings aren't evidence?

Not entirely no ....and if you are posting sports vids then def no and your interpretation of said is well at times misguided

 

[now disabled]

That's quite a bit of projection on your part.

[/QUOTE]


Eh no ...you were on about trad boys getting their asses kicked on roof tops and the Karate sensei saying things at the time of UFC ... and you refer to the vids etc now they seem mainly if you are talking UFC or what ever it is called ten is that not a sport???

 

[now disabled]

Howabout you choose a kata that actually shows things working, and we can go from there?

Eh I ain't the one who has all the issues with Kata lol and the only Kata I really know anything fully about are my own Art .... however I can see in other arts where it can be applied ...I do not know the names they use as we all use different ones ...

I can actually and do know what Kata etc are were designed for etc


so nope you go choose and do the breakdown on the arts you feel are doing as you say etc or the individual Kata you say are flawed and wrong ...and let the guys who are qualified to reply to you on their specialty, I can only reply and talk on my own (which is pointless as you already smashed that art lol)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When the kata is applied to self defense.

It's 21th century. We should talk about "When the application is recorded into modern form" instead.

 

[now disabled]

When the kata is applied to self defense.

It's 21th century. We should talk about "When the application is recorded into modern form" instead.

I get that but it can and is esp in empty hand arts ...the for example need only be changed, A very basic example an overhead strike with a sword the sword can be replaced with an over head strike with a bottle or a stick or anything else bottle ....ok distances slightly diff but principles essentially the same