When everyone is a Master, no one is...

[Xue Sheng]

I guess I was under the impression that a poom couldn't become a 1st dan until 18.

I know I am late to this discussion, but I have a problem with high rank and young age. Back when I took Jujitsu you couldn't even test for black belt until you were 18.

When I took TDK getting a black belt was hard. I think the youngest Black belt was 19, no stripes.

And there is a school in my area, that I will not name, but is the biggest tad school I have ever seen 3 or 4 huge schools. But they guarantee a black belt in a year, how do they do it? It certainly is not superior training.

My TDK teacher got his black belt very young, by Korean standards, in Korea. I believe he was in his early 20s, but he was constantly challenged, even after he arrived in North America. He proved he was worthy of his rank.

But a 19-year-old master all I can say is he should be happy he's not in East Asia.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Technically, when one reaches 4th dan in a Korean Martial Art, they become a Master. I've got some time before that occurs, so I don't have to worry about this too much. However, I recently met a 19 year old 4th dan and called this person Master out of respect. Later, I was struck by the sheer incredulity of it all. There are so many Masters now that the title has lost any meaning. It's like that line in the Incredibles..."when everyone is super, no one is."

I defy that. I will defy that. When everyone is a master, no one is. It is a measure the martial arts community that a person stands out by claiming to be normal.

As each art has a different way of handling rank, I do not wish to discuss promotions and titles.

As to too much of anything, it does make the value of the item less.

I think once a rank has a title, as the population grows and the exposure grows, then you will see the same geometric expensions. So, this does not suprise me.

The question, one has to really ask, is what is meant by Master? Or even for that matter Black Belt. From one art to another, this varies. Some people have this conception of a Master being all knowing and unable to make mistakes and untouchable. While others think of Master as a rank or step in their training.

Personally I like the ranking system in my Balintawak Training. One teacher, the rest students and if you want find out who is best, you play or in some cases teach others to play.

 

[Flying Crane]

But a 19-year-old master all I can say is he should be happy he's not in East Asia.

yeah, that would be uncomfortable...

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

The only thing I was a master of at 19 was "bating"

 

[bignick]

Rank and the time it takes to achieve it is relative. Kyuzo Mifune received his 6th dan from the Kodokan in only 9 years. My instructor has been training in Judo for over 40 years and is only a 4th dan. Stop worrying about it and train has become my philosophy.

 

[MJS]

Some good points being made here! I've always felt that many of these 'titles' are over used. Seems like people think that if they have a fancy title, people will look at them in some different way. Personally, I could care less about a title or how many stripes they have on their belt. I'm looking at how well they perform the material, how much of an understanding they have of that material, can they teach the material, and can I learn something from them. If they have a fancy title and high rank but can't perform the material, then their actions will speak louder than anything else IMO.

Mike

 

[Xue Sheng]

yeah, that would be uncomfortable...

I'm still laughing about this, it certainly would be……uncomfortable.

Some good points being made here! I've always felt that many of these 'titles' are over used. Seems like people think that if they have a fancy title, people will look at them in some different way. Personally, I could care less about a title or how many stripes they have on their belt. I'm looking at how well they perform the material, how much of an understanding they have of that material, can they teach the material, and can I learn something from them. If they have a fancy title and high rank but can't perform the material, then their actions will speak louder than anything else IMO.

Mike

This is very true. I know someone who is a brown belt and better than every black belt in the dojo he use to train in. But he trained harder than any one there, he is a police office who, most unfortunately, has had to use what he knows and he has additional training.

He left the school when the sensei retired and sold the school to 2 of his black belts.

And in many Chinese martial arts, there are no belts. So a colored belt may or may not be a judge of someone’s skill.

You are right, in the end it all comes down to what you are truly capable of.

 

[Kacey]

Technically, when one reaches 4th dan in a Korean Martial Art, they become a Master. I've got some time before that occurs, so I don't have to worry about this too much. However, I recently met a 19 year old 4th dan and called this person Master out of respect. Later, I was struck by the sheer incredulity of it all. There are so many Masters now that the title has lost any meaning. It's like that line in the Incredibles..."when everyone is super, no one is."

Actually, it depends on which federation you belong to (if any). ITF and ITF-style TKD (also called Chang H'on, Blue Cottage, and/or the Chon-ji pattern set) do not consider a practitioner a master until 7th dan. In ITF and related systems, 1st-3rd dan is 'novice', 4th-6th dan is 'expert', and 7-9th dan is 'master', with 9th dan being 'grand master'. As a 4th dan myself (which took me 18 years to reach, having started in 1987), I don't consider myself to be a master, or anywhere near a master... actually, I'm not too sure about the expert part either.:asian:

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I think about the company I'd keep by becoming a master. I would be really proud to call some my peers, but mostly disappointed by the sea of normalcy hiding behind the title.

I understand your sentiments, but my experience of legitimate TSD masters was that they were highly trained and dedicated experts in their MA. The single master I met (fourth dan) who was in his twenties (LATE 20's, BTW) had studied since before he learned how to read. However, I understand that many McDojangs are awarding high dans and titles to the very young. My first TKD master did not assume the title master until he was a 7th dan, though, and was in his early fifties when he accepted the title. My second, at 6th dan and in his early forties. It depends a lot on WHO is certifiying whom. A Kukkiwon certified 4th dan should be expected to have "mastered" the rudiments of his or her art and a legitimate TSD fourth dan as well.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think part of the problem is, and I think this was previously mentioned in this post, is that you have a group of people getting together in an organization to decide at what level they will call someone a master.

Sometimes they are right, others they are wrong, Sometimes they are motivated by making the art better sometimes, most of the time, they are motivated by keeping students and making more money.

Here's a question: When was the last time any martial arts organization decided to raise the belt level before someone was called a master?

Also I do not wish to make light of anyone who is 18, 19, etc. that has a high belt, they very likely worked very hard to get their, and are good representatives of their art. But I still have a problem with even being a black belt before 18, but this could be because of my MA background and the fact that I am WAY past 18.

 

[Makalakumu]

I started this thread because I'm making a personal choice regarding my martial arts practice. I've been working very hard in order to get ready for my next test and right now things are looking pretty sharp. I could pass the test right now if I could take it. That is why this is on my mind. The option to become a "master" lies in the "not to distant" future...and I don't need to stroke my ego like that. I fact, I think that it might become a detriment because right now at my dojang, if I make a mistake, well, I'm still human. Heck, the other day, one of my students caught me with a right cross that had be sitting on my butt. Think about how everything changes once "the master" gets knocked down. Part of me feels that people who take that step are really setting themselves up. I think that I can be a better teacher and a better martial artists by not claiming to be a "master" of anything. I don't want the baggage.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Think about how everything changes once "the master" gets knocked down. Part of me feels that people who take that step are really setting themselves up. I think that I can be a better teacher and a better martial artists by not claiming to be a "master" of anything. I don't want the baggage.

Sorry, but you forced the philosophy to come out, you brought this on yourself you know ;^)

"Can you look at a situation without naming it? naming it, making it a word, causes fear." -- Bruce Lee, Tao of Jeet Kune Do.

We are all human, and martial arts masters make mistakes. If you do make one, you could be picked on, especially by other masters or senior students.

If you feel you have trained hard and you feel you can help others in their training, who cares.

I am no master, but I was once showing a junior student, by example, why he should not stand on his tiptoes while doing a front kick. I fell on my butt, he got the idea, I got teased incessantly for about a month and that was the end of it.

Also while working with people in push hands (Tai Chi), I let them gain the advantage many times to give them the idea of what they should be doing. Occasionally they get the advantage on there own, I just tell them that was very good, and keep it up. But they never get that chance again, unless I allow it, I learn from them. But then they find another way to gain the advantage. It happens

In a seminar I attended with Dr Yang he said he was always learning. At that time he had decided to start studying Xingyi.

Just because you are a master does not mean that you have nothing left to learn. If you deserve the rank then you should have the rank.

 

[AceHBK]

There are a lot of great points made in thsi thread. I agree with a large majority of it. I think 18 and 19 who are 4th Dans and all do not have the maturity of it and that is what alot of us will agree about. I see it as the same as some high school kid wanting to go into the NBA. You have the skill but may not comprehend everything else that encompass it. As you get older you realize that u need the mental part more than the physical casue the physical will go away with time.

I use to be about belt colors and stuff when I first started and now it doesnt mean anything to me. It is all about knowledge and I realize that it will be a lifetime journey so now I am in no rush like I use to be when I first started. That in itself has helped my training a great deal.

Now trying to explain this to someone who is not a MA is very hard to do.
World has become so "belt happy" that is all we see.

 

[Flying Crane]

But I still have a problem with even being a black belt before 18, but this could be because of my MA background and the fact that I am WAY past 18.

I earned my black belt when I was younger than 18. In retrospect, as I look back I realize it was probably premature. I have spent the next 18 years or so in my training, hoping that I have somehow made up for any deficiencies that I probably had at that time, and have never been ranked above 1st black. One thing that was clear to me at the time was that I was unprepared to be a teacher on my own, so I did not do it. It is really amazing how your point of view changes with a bit of maturity.

I can't imagine how I would feel if I had a 4th black at the age of 19. At the time, I probably would have felt it was appropriate, but now at the age of 34 I would probably feel like I was covering up a fraud.