When Do You React?

[MJS]

I recently posted a clip from Larry Tatum on Crashing Wings. A member commented on the effectiveness of the technique because the attacker already had the defender in the bear hug. Others commented that the defense should begin prior to the initial grab. So, this leads me to my question: When do YOU being to react?

IMHO, I think that both methods should be trained. Train for when you see that hand coming towards your chest to grab you. Afterall, can't that hand be treated as if it was a punch? What about a push? Sure, when we feel those hands coming around us, we should begin a defense, even if its so much as bringing your arms to your side to pin their arms. Its a start right? But I also feel that you should train for the worst case as well. Why not train a defense when the grab as been fully applied? It is possible to be caught off guard and the grab actually completed. We can't assume we can pull our defense off prior to full execution of the grab.

Thoughts?

 

[Drac]

While I am not a Kempo/Kenpo practioneer, EVERYTHING here makes good sense..See or feel and attack push. pin or grab..REACT!!! !!!

 

[Blindside]

I react whenever I figure out something bad is happening, this may be before contact, at contact, or after contact.

For a punch, kick, or grab, before contact can be dealt with using footwork, parries, blocks, or interceptions.

At contact punches and kicks are dealt with by "rolling with the blow." Grabs are not fully engaged, lapel grabs and chokes are often pushes at this point, chokes and headlocks are not locked on, etc.

Training after contact for strikes is silly, thats what sparring is for. For grabs the attackers arm is retracting making most of the arm hyper-extension techniques useless (snapping twig, lone kimono, etc) and other techniques start coming into play (say Drawbridge for the Tracy folks, or Destructive Twins for the AK). Some attacks at the "after contact" stage are almost impossible to get out of like a rear-naked choke. But you should train for most possibilities.

Lamont

 

[kosho]

I myself teach my students to respond when motion is a threat.

If you let someone grab you and the grab is 100% then the teq. you use may or may not work. But if you move when the motion of the threat is happening them i feel you have a stronger defense, you are able to defend your self. Motion = movement. take action and turn your reaction, into a action. that will make the attacker on a defense issue now...

So I teach the student to move when motion makes or feels like a attack...
Hope this make sense.

Kosho

 

[Monadnock]

To "react" implies that there is something to stimulate your response.

Reaction may take place when you sense something wrong, or feel uncomfortable. Take for example, a person approaches you from the side. Your reaction may be to look out of the side of your eyes, or turn your body on an angle to be in a better position in case there is an attack emminent.

In the case of Crashing Wings, you may not realize someone is behind you until you see their hands coming around from the rear for the bear hug.

In a worse case, you do not know anything is wrong until you are already grabbed.

Either way, you react when you perceive, or become aware, that there is conflict.

Most techniques are designed to work for a specialized situation. By changing the timing, you get variations and in some cases, new techniques. Crashing Wings assumes you were caught off guard, IMHO.

 

[jks9199]

While I am not a Kempo/Kenpo practioneer, EVERYTHING here makes good sense..See or feel and attack push. pin or grab..REACT!!! !!!

Yep.

The best time to react is before something happens... But since we can't always do that, we need to learn to react AS it happens, as well as AFTER it happened. Sometimes the same techniques can be applied; sometimes different techniques need to be used.

 

[Drac]

Yep.

The best time to react is before something happens... But since we can't always do that, we need to learn to react AS it happens, as well as AFTER it happened. Sometimes the same techniques can be applied; sometimes different techniques need to be used.

I agree..

 

[Monadnock]

Yep.

The best time to react is before something happens...

Is that like a 6th sense?

 

[John Bishop]

Yep.

The best time to react is before something happens... But since we can't always do that, we need to learn to react AS it happens, as well as AFTER it happened. Sometimes the same techniques can be applied; sometimes different techniques need to be used.

I agree, very good point. In my system we have 15 "Grab Arts", or break holds. These are done against various grabbing attacks; such as bear hugs, chokes, lapel grabs, shoulder grabs, grab and punch, grab from behind-turn and punch, etc. And then there are many variations that can be worked off of these. Only 1 of the techniques is done as someone is reaching to grab you. The rest are break holds.

I once had a experienced student from another style, who joined the school, saying that he had learned many of the Kajukenbo techniques from video tapes. I thought, "ok he moves pretty well in a general sense. So we'll see how his video training went."
So we get him lined up in the monkey line to run some grab arts. Each time it's his turn to do a grab art, he does it as the attacker is reaching out to grab him. I asked him why he wasn't letting the attacker grab him before executing the technique. He said, "well me and my training partner thought it would be better to learn to do the technique before someone actually grabs you. That way we could stop them before they got a hold of us."
Well, I explained to him that I agreed that it would be best to never let anyone actually grab a hold of you. But it would not be realistic to believe that no one will ever be able to grab you. And that the purpose of the techniques were to learn how to break free from various types of holds.

So again I agree with the above quote. In a ideal world your skills would allow you to never get hit or grabbed. But the smart martial artist prepares himself for every possibly thing he thinks could go wrong.

 

[jks9199]

Is that like a 6th sense?

Kind of...

If you train diligently, and pay attention to your surroundings, you'll start putting things together. You'll realize that a certain set of the shoulders means someone's thinking about throwing a punch, or a glance will tell you where they want to go. You'll know that the tree over there is just the right size for someone to hide behind and grab you as you pass, so you'll take that extra half step away from it... You'll feel the intent of the guy, and maybe even disarm it with your own intent...

End of the spooky stuff!

It's pretty simple. Ideally, you'll see something about to happen, and you'll actually ACT instead of reacting. (Action is always faster than reaction!) You'll stop the hand from grabbing you... The next best thing is to react the instant you feel them touch you, but before they've actually grabbed you. But... in reality, sometimes, they do get that grab in... so you need to know how to deal with that, too.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Is that like a 6th sense?

More like common sense.
Sean

 

[Drac]

Is that like a 6th sense?

Possible..You work enough nights and you can sense when things aren't right..I say nights because you rely on your senses alot more..

If you train diligently, and pay attention to your surroundings, you'll start putting things together. You'll realize that a certain set of the shoulders means someone's thinking about throwing a punch, or a glance will tell you where they want to go. You'll know that the tree over there is just the right size for someone to hide behind and grab you as you pass, so you'll take that extra half step away from it... You'll feel the intent of the guy, and maybe even disarm it with your own intent...

End of the spooky stuff!

It's pretty simple. Ideally, you'll see something about to happen, and you'll actually ACT instead of reacting. (Action is always faster than reaction!) You'll stop the hand from grabbing you... The next best thing is to react the instant you feel them touch you, but before they've actually grabbed you. But... in reality, sometimes, they do get that grab in... so you need to know how to deal with that

Yep..

 

[morph4me]

I recently posted a clip from Larry Tatum on Crashing Wings. A member commented on the effectiveness of the technique because the attacker already had the defender in the bear hug. Others commented that the defense should begin prior to the initial grab. So, this leads me to my question: When do YOU being to react?

IMHO, I think that both methods should be trained. Train for when you see that hand coming towards your chest to grab you. Afterall, can't that hand be treated as if it was a punch? What about a push? Sure, when we feel those hands coming around us, we should begin a defense, even if its so much as bringing your arms to your side to pin their arms. Its a start right? But I also feel that you should train for the worst case as well. Why not train a defense when the grab as been fully applied? It is possible to be caught off guard and the grab actually completed. We can't assume we can pull our defense off prior to full execution of the grab.

Thoughts?

I agree. Ideally you should get to apoint where you act either before or as the attack is happening, but in the event the attack is completed, you still need to have options.

I'm not a kempo practitioner, but we learn our techinques from a grab in a static position to learn the mechanics of the technique, how to move uke using body movement without pulling or pushing, and our position relative to our attacker. Once we get a feel of how the technique works from there, we move on to an actual dynamic attack. Usually at this point the attack is usually completed before the defense begins, because it's still a new skill. Eventually we move as the attacker moves which prevents the completion of the attack.

 

[kidswarrior]

I agree, very good point. In my system we have 15 "Grab Arts", or break holds....Only 1 of the techniques is done as someone is reaching to grab you. The rest are break holds.

In a ideal world your skills would allow you to never get hit or grabbed. But the smart martial artist prepares himself for every possibly thing he thinks could go wrong.

This is how I teach, too. Of course it's best never to get locked up or hit in the first place, and this can be trained and honed, as jks and Drac have said. But training the static break holds is insurance for that off night when someone does get past our first line of defense, maybe our awareness level is sluggish. In both cases my way is to attack the attack. Without the static-start training, what would a student do who'd missed the first tell and let someone best him? Without ever having trained any break holds, he'd be pretty much helpless.

 

[Danjo]

But training the static break holds is insurance for that off night when someone does get past our first line of defense, maybe our awareness level is sluggish.

Yep. especially when you've had a few and your guard is a bit down as a result. There are several grab arts in Kajukenbo that were designed with the person sitting at a barstool in mind.

 

[kidswarrior]

Yep. especially when you've had a few and your guard is a bit down as a result. There are several grab arts in Kajukenbo that were designed with the person sitting at a barstool in mind.

Man, you Kajukenpo guys love a party, huh? Barbecues, barstools, have you no shame?

 

[Danjo]

Man, you Kajukenpo guys love a party, huh? Barbecues, barstools, have you no shame?

We're only ashamed if we're not BBQing or drinking.