Whats up with this ???

[LocknBlock]

Something all in FMA should think about!!
Re: Found this while surfing


Hey I found this on a groups page while reading FMA digest,sup with GM Davis??? Is he on some kind of ego trip??? Looks like the guy he is talking about just got promoted from a very creditable federation,looks like one of the students of GM Fred Lazo has a difference of opinion. It makes sense that FMA people ought to learn to work together so that a positive legacy can be left, otherwise instead of illegal cock fights, there will be underground death matches to settle dis-agreements. We can all help each other for the sake of the future. Peace out!!

Both GM Robert Castro ( Eskabo Daan & Kombatan ) and GM Lito Concepcion ( Kombatan) were personally taught and promoted to 9th Dan ( degree) by GGM Ernesto A. Presas. GGM Presas awarded a honorary 9th Dan to GM Emil Bautista ( Kajukenbo - NorCal HQ K.S.D.I. ) who was there at theKombatan training camp as the 'guest of honor'. Eskabo Daan founder GM Robert Castro and Eskabo Daan were also honored to be inducted to the Philipine Martial Arts Hall
of Fame and Filipino Martial Arts Museum at :

GGMErnesto A. Presas

10th IPMAF World Arnis Congress and Training Camp , Presas Beach ResortHinigaran
Negros Island
Philippines

April 23 – May 7, 2007


Look I found this on another group while I was checking out the groups directory. Martial artists should really try to get along cause this sets a bad example for all who practice FMA, I practice Balintawak and my GrandMaster Fred Lazo trained from Felicisimo Dizon, the one that GGM Angel Cabales in his book says that he learned from, so technically most of the Filipino styles are all inter-related some how so we should all actually promote each other, something like what is stated in this letter can be forgiven and over looked. All of us who are FMA players should set the standard not tear it all down, however like my teacher told me thats why in the Philipines in the ol' days they fought to the death that way there would be no question of who was good, cause the winner lived and the loser died. Thats why we don't in our school play in tournaments, tournaments develop bad habits. Well that is really a post you found abba.niko. Salamat Po, hey maybe one day they will let outsiders(non-filipinos) excel and grow in their art.

--- In serradaanthonydavis@yahoogroups.com, "abba.niko" <abba.niko@...> wrote:
>
>
> May 11,2005
>
>
> Greetings Mr.Rob Castro,
>
> this letter is in regards to our recent telephone conversation
> regarding Tony"The Tiger"Lopez,
> and Jessy Lopez Sr. dating back to May 5,2005. First, I'd like to
> express that your poor attitude concerning the misuse of both of
> these very reputable person's names is extremely direspectful and is
> highly distasteful to all parties concerned. Your unwillingness to
> support the Tony"The Tiger"Lopez Boxing Seminar on May 14,2005, is a
> sign of your total disrespect towards this man, and shows that you
> are not willing to hold yourself accountable for your deceptive,
> bad, and misleading marketing tactics.
> How dare you use this man's name in vain over a long period of
> time, and not feel that you do not owe this man a formal public
> apology, along with some form of financial reimbursement or
> compensation as well.
> Your arrogancy is utterly despicable Mr.Castro. What you have done
> and continue to do in regards to misrepresenting me, Jessy Lopez
> Sr., Tony"The Tiger"Lopez, Grandmaster Angel Cabales, Dan Inosanto,
> Bruce Lee and other's, is totally dishonorable and is extremely
> unbecoming of a true martial artist.
> I am personally offended, and I am ashamed to have been your
> primary martial arts teacher,
> and for these reasons, I feel strongly, that it is my personal duty
> to reprimand you in regards to the ambiguous, misleading and false
> information that you have presented to the world martial arts
> community. Essentially, what you have been doing Mr.Castro is, you
> have been releasing untrue or shady information about your martial
> arts background. What you are doing now, and have been doing, is
> within the legal world called "Plagiarism". To plagiarise means to:
> steal and use(the ideas or writings of another) as ones own.
> There are serious legal consequences that comes along with one who
> willingly and knowingly plagiarises another person(s) material or
> ideas. This, Mr. Castro you have most assuredly done.
> Let me further explain just how you have fallen into the category
> of being a plagiarist.
> As we investigate the style of martial arts you claim that you
> invented known as "ESKABO DAAN" we have encountered some serious
> flaws or defects. Your creation story about your style of Escrima
> states the following: Grandmaster Rob Castro's philosophy: E is for
> Escrima,
> S is for Serrada from Grandmaster Angel Cabales and Master Anthony
> Davis, K is for Kali from Master Danny Inosanto, A is for Arnis from
> Grandmaster Ernesto Presas, B is for Boxing from Champion Tony"The
> Tiger"Lopez, and Thai Boxing from Master Anthony Davis, and O is for
> Jeet Kune Do from Bruce Lee. 'Daan' means "The Way" in Tagalog.
> Now, from my memory recall you've only studied the arts of
> Escrima and Serrada primarily under one instructor, and that one
> instructor just happens to be me. Incidentally, Escrima and Serrada
> are one and the same art form known as(Serrada Escrima) and are not
> two seperate arts. To my knowledge, you hold no legitimate rank in
> the art of Serrada Escrima that has been awarded to you directly
> from the late Grandmaster Angel Cabales. All of your instructor
> degree's in this particular art comes directly from me. In the
> contents of your background information, you give people the false
> impression that you trained directly from GM Angel Cabales, this
> could not be further from the truth. In reality, your minimal
> contact with the Grandmaster always came directly by way of me.
> Concerning your background in the art form of Kali that you claim
> comes from Danny Inosanto, once again to my knowledge, you have
> never met nor trained directly from either Dan Inosanto or from any
> of his main instructor's. As I am the one who personally knows
> Mr.Inosanto by promoting him in seminars as far back as 1980 & 1983,
> once more, it is through me that you have acquired any skills in the
> art of Kali.
> As far as your claim that you learned your Boxing skills from ex-
> 3-time World Boxing Champion Tony"The Tiger"Lopez, you and I both
> know that you have never even met the man, let alone, have you ever
> personally learned boxing from the man. Out of all of the lies that
> you have told and documented, thus far, this particular lie is the
> most appalling of them all. On your website there appears a
> photograph of myself and one of my now deceased graduate
> instructor's by the name of Kove Jones. This particular photograph
> depicts Mr.Jones and myself holding a certificate together; the
> photo is labled :GM Kove Jones & GM Anthony Davis. Basically, in the
> photo I am awarding Mr.Jones his well earned Master Diploma Degree.
> What puzzles me about this photo is, I am Mr.Jones' chief
> instructor, and Mr.Jones is your senior teacher, but yet, somehow
> both you and Mr.Jones have now become Grandmasters. Of course
> Mr.Jones had nothing to do with this fluke, as this particular
> picture was released just after his untimely and unfortunate death.
> Lastly, Mr. Castro, you really went overboard when you state that
> the letter 'O' in your Escrima system stands for "Jeet Kune Do" from
> Bruce Lee. I' m sure that Bruce Lee's widow Linda Lee Cadwell and
> Bruce Lee's direct students will dispute this rediculous claim at
> some given point in time.
> Your only authentic and brief acquaintance with any of Bruce
> Lee's original students is with the legendary Prof. Leo T.Fong, whom
> again you met through me. I have recently informed Prof. Fong about
> his photo's and information concerning him currently appearing on
> your website.
> His response to being informed of this info., is he wants any and
> all information concerning him to be taken off of your site just as
> speedily as you removed the information about Tony"The Tiger"Lopez
> off of your site. Otherwise, he stated, "Mr.Castro will soon be
> hearing from my attorney". In conclusion of this denunciation letter
> to you, as of this day { May 11,2005} you are no longer recognized
> by me or by any member within the body of my organization as one of
> my graduate Instructor's. As of now, the authority granted to you by
> me to teach martial arts under the umbrella of my organization known
> as "MARTIAL ARTS INTERNATIONAL" is now hereby officially defunct. I,
> Anthony Davis, as the founder and President of "MARTIAL ARTS
> INTERNATIONAL" do hereby retract and cancel your membership within
> my association. As of now Mr.Rob Castro, you are no longer
> officially authorized to represent me in any form or fashion. You no
> longer have my permission to use the teaching diploma's that I
> myself gave to you for the purposes of validating your credentials
> as a teacher within the body of my organization known as "MARTIAL
> ARTS INTERNATIONAL". Additionally, I am officially requesting that
> you discontinue the use of my photo's on your website, as I have not
> now, nor have I ever signed any release forms or waivers stating
> that you could use any of my materials, images, etc. for the
> purposes of your promotional campaigns.
>
> If you do not abide by any of the demands concerning myself and
> my products, creations, etc. I, in turn will file a civil lawsuit
> against you, and we will meet each other again in a court of law.
>
> Respectfully,
>
>
> GM Anthony Davis/President
> MARTIAL ARTS INTERNATIONAL
>

 

[LocknBlock]

This thread I found on FMA Talk and I wanted to comment on it. Looks like this GrandMaster Davis doesn't know of what he speaks. Serrada is just another form of Escrima, in fact lately FMA lists itself as Arnis/Kali/Escrima ,after that styles are named by their creators. FMA is already a MMA(mixed-martial-art). In fact it would be interesting to delve into the background of this GM Davis fellow or even go to court in a suit just to find out who he is exactly and what really is his agenda for FMA. That letter is written like he is(GM Davis) an absolute authority on FMA, yet I feel as though the real authority should come from the 'homeland' of FMA, the Phillipines, where it seems that GM Davis stripping of diploma really has no affect cause looks like they love GM Castro in the Philipines to so honored with his promotion to GrandMaster 9th Dan by GGM Ernesto A. Presas. So this is a revelation into the personality behind this GM Anthony Davis, who feels he is an auhtority on Filipinos and their culture, though not one himself, yes he may be married to a Filipina but that in itself doesn't make him Filipino born and raised and who does he think he is to put another person who is Filipino down??? I wonder who he really is?? GM Castro has been recognized and honored for his contributions to FMA in the Phillipines by a very respected name in FMA. So what gives with the letter??

 

[arnisador]

I don't know enough about Serrada to know who's who in it, I'm afraid.

 

[Rich Parsons]

While I understand the poster's account is under review I am confused by some comments. One in particular:

I practice Balintawak and my GrandMaster Fred Lazo trained from Felicisimo Dizon, the one that GGM Angel Cabales in his book says that he learned from

GM's Dizon and Cabales had nothing to do with Baliantawak. I am confused by this reference.

Does anyone have a pointer so I can get un-confused?

Thanks

 

[Guro Harold]

While I understand the poster's account is under review I am confused by some comments. One in particular:



GM's Dizon and Cabales had nothing to do with Baliantawak. I am confused by this reference.

Does anyone have a pointer so I can get un-confused?

Thanks

Hi Rich,

I could be wrong but I think that the poster is speaking about the diverse nature of FMA in relationship to their instructors background and themselves, not that GM(s) Dizon and Cabales have any associations with Balintawak.

-Harold

 

[tshadowchaser]

All I know is that his posting style hurts my eyes and is hard to read.

As to some of the things he has said in his posts I would like to see some proof of what he is saying and some backup documents
heck I am not familiar with some of the names he is naming and would like a breakdown of who they all are and their backgrounds

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hi Rich,

I could be wrong but I think that the poster is speaking about the diverse nature of FMA in relationship to their instructors background and themselves, not that GM(s) Dizon and Cabales have any associations with Balintawak.

-Harold

While I understand that Martial Arts in the Cebu area has lots of intereaction wiht each other. And then there were people who travelled the islands so mixing and seeing of others did happen.

I am just confused by every who seems to want to draw a connection from the FMA of the MONTh that people all want to be connected too.

 

[seibukan]

What forum is this originaly posted on? I'm a also a little confused and curious as to who the person is who trained with GM Lazo.

 

[LocknBlock]

From my reading and research I found that Dizon is who Cabales used to learn from when he was coming up in the Philipines. Cabales went on to create Serrada Eskrima, Dizon later trained GM Lazo, who got into Balintawak. Both sytles are known for closing the gap between opponents, to get in close, corto fighting. So my deduction is both men connect back to Dizon so indirectly and directly their styles are somewhat related. Then of course GM Lazo, knew Prof. Remy Presas and is good friends with GGM Ernesto Presas and had some influence with helping with Kombatan. I am just correlating the facts is all I'm doing. Yet I'm sure there is more to the whole story. I just ran across this post on another forum and thought what an odd post, thats all !! I'm just a supporter of FMA !

 

[Carol]

Moderator Note

Attention all users:

Please keep the conversation polite, respectful, and refain from Fraud-Busting.

Thank You,

-Carol Kaur-
-MT Moderator-

 

[Rich Parsons]

From my reading and research I found that Dizon is who Cabales used to learn from when he was coming up in the Philipines. Cabales went on to create Serrada Eskrima, Dizon later trained GM Lazo, who got into Balintawak. Both sytles are known for closing the gap between opponents, to get in close, corto fighting. So my deduction is both men connect back to Dizon so indirectly and directly their styles are somewhat related. Then of course GM Lazo, knew Prof. Remy Presas and is good friends with GGM Ernesto Presas and had some influence with helping with Kombatan. I am just correlating the facts is all I'm doing. Yet I'm sure there is more to the whole story. I just ran across this post on another forum and thought what an odd post, thats all !! I'm just a supporter of FMA !

Your logic does not follow or I am missing some information. Your implication that Balintawak is the same as Serrada does not follow.

I know GM Remy Presas trainined in Balintawak.

I know GM Lazo was associated with GM Remy Presas.

You say he also trained with GM Dizon (* not arguing just stating that I do not know from other independant sources / facts *).

You also imply that Cabales Serrada comes from GM Dizon's teachings.

Where did GM Lazo get his Balintawak? GM Remy Presas? - GM Presas did not train with Cabales or Dizon so your statement or implication that Balintawak and Serrada are the same does not follow.

One could say that GM Lazo has trained with GM Remy Presas and GM Dizon and was able to get some Balintawak from GM Remy Presas and GM Dizon's art as well from him. Yet I do not see how Serrada can be tied in as GM Cabales did not teach GM LAzo. If you are implying that what GM Dizon and GM Cabales taught are the same then are you not calling GM Cabales dishonest for teaching something that was someone else's?

And if the Balintawak connection was not through GM Remy Presas which has not been established yet, then I have to ask again where is the conenction?

Balintawak came from GM Bacon who did train with GM Saavedra and was a member of the Doces Pares and Labingnong Fencing Group but even thsoe involved with the Modern Doces Pares state they are not the same so saying the Balintawak is the same as Doces Pares does not follow and it does not prove that Balintawak and Serrada are the same.

Of course this excludes what I have seen in person of the two arts and what I have seen shows they are different.

So just a little confused.

Thanks

 

[pahhhoul]

Disputes, tension and anything such as the likes of the topic at hand in this post are unfortunate. However GM Castro has settled this matter in his own way by just doing what he's been doing for years. Which is to continue his studies and practice in the martial arts. To my knowledge GM Castro never replied back to GM Anthony Davis.

When I created the website for GM Castro years ago and re-typed up what Eskabo Daan is; it was mostly for reference so that people would know what styles were what. We were a very small group back then just practicing in GM Castro's garage and had no idea that there was a possible potential negative reaction. Especially the likes of "the letter"; which is why the History section of the Eskabo Daan website is under construction at the moment.

Hopefully soon, within the next few months I will post up something to clarify what is Eskabo Daan. I would like to tell you guys what my project is, but.... it's still in the works. Actually it just came to me last week.

But anyways, yea.. that letter from GM Davis was disheartening. However now.. good things are happening for all. So, wouldn't it be best to concentrate on the good rather than the bad?

-Paul

 

[seibukan]

GM Lazo never had a Balintawak teacher, although he trained and exchanged techniques with both GM Remy and GM Ernesto Presas for many years while developing Modern Arnis. While Balintawak has influenced Modern Arnis (via GM Remy) it is safe to say it has also had some influence on Luzviminda (Luzviminda is influenced by many styles)

As for GM Lazo training with Dizon, GM Lazo was already an accomplished Arnisador when he return to his training with Dizon (he trained with him as a youth). As such Dizon skipped most of the basics and taught him the “De cuerdes” style of Sumbrada.

 

[Carol]

Welcome to MartialTalk, Paul! :asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

GM Lazo never had a Balintawak teacher, although he trained and exchanged techniques with both GM Remy and GM Ernesto Presas for many years while developing Modern Arnis. While Balintawak has influenced Modern Arnis (via GM Remy) it is safe to say it has also had some influence on Luzviminda (Luzviminda is influenced by many styles)

As for GM Lazo training with Dizon, GM Lazo was already an accomplished Arnisador when he return to his training with Dizon (he trained with him as a youth). As such Dizon skipped most of the basics and taught him the “De cuerdes” style of Sumbrada.

What you say sir makes sense to me based upon what I have heard/read and learned.

 

[LocknBlock]

What you say sir makes sense to me based upon what I have heard/read and learned.

GM Lazo never had a Balintawak teacher, although he trained and exchanged techniques with both GM Remy and GM Ernesto Presas for many years while developing Modern Arnis. While Balintawak has influenced Modern Arnis (via GM Remy) it is safe to say it has also had some influence on Luzviminda (Luzviminda is influenced by many styles)

As for GM Lazo training with Dizon, GM Lazo was already an accomplished Arnisador when he return to his training with Dizon (he trained with him as a youth). As such Dizon skipped most of the basics and taught him the “De cuerdes” style of Sumbrada.

Exactly, some of the "De Cuerdas style of Sumbrada is in Serrada, and man you must be confused cause there has never been any disrespect towrds GGM Cabales, just what I had read in 'Wiley's book", my point being whenever a person has any kind of relationship especially one where one is learning a skill, the person that shares the knowledge,some of that person rubs off! Consequently if both men (Lazo & Cabales ) no matter at what time period, it just makes sense to me that Dizon influenced both men and wherever they went some of that influence rubbed off, so I hope that you Mr. Parsons are no longer confused.I just thought it would be a good discussion topic thats all, its good that you want to learn and get info. Keep up with what ever you are pursuing. There is always more info that we all can benefit from.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Exactly, some of the "De Cuerdas style of Sumbrada is in Serrada, and man you must be confused cause there has never been any disrespect towrds GGM Cabales, just what I had read in 'Wiley's book", my point being whenever a person has any kind of relationship especially one where one is learning a skill, the person that shares the knowledge,some of that person rubs off! Consequently if both men (Lazo & Cabales ) no matter at what time period, it just makes sense to me that Dizon influenced both men and wherever they went some of that influence rubbed off, so I hope that you Mr. Parsons are no longer confused.I just thought it would be a good discussion topic thats all, its good that you want to learn and get info. Keep up with what ever you are pursuing. There is always more info that we all can benefit from.

My confusion as I stated was that you implied that Balintawak and Serrada were the same.

Seibukan stated there was no link for Balintawak to Serrada via those mentioned. Which is what I thought I understood.

 

[LocknBlock]

I thought this might help, but like I said you're confused I never said they were the same!! But this post from another forum kind of sums it up for me!!


Full story here:
http://fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=338

From
http://www.lakb.net/gmlazo.html

Grand Master Lazo's early training as an Arnisador was filled by many colorful experiences and fascinating characters, many of who were expert martial artists. Their common love and appreciation for their arts led so many of these experts and even masters to share their knowledge with the hungry young student whose intense devotion to training was plain for all to see.

 

[seibukan]

In GM Lazo's bio I have changed "Serrada" to "De cuerdes" as it may have caused some confusion and was a error on my part when creating the site.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I practice Balintawak and my GrandMaster Fred Lazo trained from Felicisimo Dizon, the one that GGM Angel Cabales in his book says that he learned from, so technically most of the Filipino styles are all inter-related some how so we should all actually promote each other

When you posted the direct quote above as it was in Blue just like your comments I thought it was your comments not a quote form someone else.

I thought this might help, but like I said you're confused I never said they were the same!! But this post from another forum kind of sums it up for me!!

So I thought you were saying they were the same.

Originally Posted by StixMaster ​

One could venture to say that Serrada , Balintawak & Kombatan are cousins. ​

I would believe that!​

Counsins To a point but still different in many aspects.