What will the Martial Arts be 50 years from now?

[Bruce7]

it may have opened eyes, but it doesn't seem to have made a great deal of improvement to existing arts who are stuck to the main part stuck in the 1920s or a 100 years earlier.

$ belts for money only works if you have a larger population of people who are will to pay for a belt, the popularity created by Bruce, made that a commercially viable business plan, even if it wasn't his idea or intent, very low quality ma school appeared over night in the uk, in there's many thousands to exploit culpable people who had seen I Bruce film

Good point.
I think teachers who knew Bruce Lee changed some of their methods.
My teacher taught a punch not used in TKD, that is very effective.
His Ideas on training and using what works from other MA at the time was revolutionary.

 

[Buka]

There have been numerous (countless) periods of radical shift and rapid change ("change" does not always equal "development") in the expression of martial arts over the centuries.

Any time there is a cultural or technological change, it hammers smack into martial arts like the hammer of Thor.

As one, tiny, example, my friends who study the period tell me that there was a radical shift in the expression of Native American Martial Arts when the Europeans introduced steel trade goods, particularly axes and knives, to what had been essentially a stone-age culture. Want to take book on whether or not introduction of steel weapons caused a greater "evolution" of martial arts than we have seen in "the last 50 years?" And that's without considering the horse in our equation.

The introduction of Roman military tactics and the effects it had on the Greek Phalanx, is another example. Or the application of Philip of Macedon and then of Alexander the Great's military tactics. Or the effects that Hannibal's War Elephants had.

The introduction of the Mine Ball created a nearly unprecedented shift.

Various legal and cultural changes create amazing shifts in the expression of martial arts as well. The Dueling culture dramatically shifted, and with it the martial arts around it, with changes in social norms associated with the practice, an in the span of a life time.

The diligent work of the Marquess of Queensberry is often thought to be the backbone of a dramatic and fundamental shift in English boxing, both leading to its eventual decriminalization in England (yes, it was, in fact, illegal despite its popularity) and the complete and utter redaction of throws, locks, and even chokes & pressure point attacks.

Or, because I mentioned the Hammer of Thor, the Norse attacks on England and Europe caused a radical shift in the martial arts there (as well as the hiring of Norse mercenaries) because the weapons and armor, as well as the average size, of the Norsemen was very different.

The change of iron and steel making technologies which allowed better European armor to be produced changed the type of swords, spears, and bludgeons along with changing techniques, tactics, and strategies.

And what are we suggesting that the current half-century period of change is based on? The re-acceptance into society of MMA & BJJ maybe? As compared to Up And Down Fighting? Or Kosen? Or Irish Faction Fights at the fair? Or are we basing it on the introduction of Asian Martial Arts to Europeans? Barton-Wright did that back in 1899 and made such a big splash that Conan Doyle wrote it into the Sherlock Holmes mythos.

No, I contest most strongly the claim that "Martial Art's have certainly evolved more in the previous 50 years than ever before." Horseshit. It is the basest of egotism to believe that the changes we have seen are anything special. It's merely the latest round.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

My time line is a little skewed as I consider things in my own personal time frame. In a couple of weeks it will be forty five years since earning my first Black Belt. Like everyone else, my opinions are based on personal experience of what, if any, research and experience I did and had throughout those years. And what I am particularly speaking of is the opportunities today to delve into the learning of various approaches to the arts as opposed to fifty years ago.

Your post seems to be leaning a little bit more to the history of military tactics and weapons. But I was born just six years after the Hiroshima bomb was dropped. It is my opinion that that bomb changed more about military history and danger than anything that ever came before it. And likely that will ever come after it. I know war is war and people dying horrible deaths is always going to be just that. And I know all about the realities of warfare in our own past as my dad fought trench warfare in World War 1.

But, to me, historically, anything before Little Boy and Fatman is different. They didn't just change things between the warring countries, they changed everything for everyone living on this planet.

As for the arts themselves, look at us right now. Having discussions on fighting, fighting history, warfare, Martial Arts and every single thing about them from either the comfort of our homes or while we are on the fly using a communication devices we carry in our pockets.

I could film something on my phone, send it to you in a private message on our forum, and ask, "Kirk, what's the deal behind this?"

I remember in the early seventies going into Boston's Chinatown to the biggest Martial Arts store and buying the Martial books of the time on so many different styles. They all had those one step techniques in series of still, black and white photos. You would look at them and try to figure out what was what, it was just so hard. But now? Just blows my mind.

I think back fifty years to one of my all time passions of personal entertainment, television. I think back to what was on it back then concerning fighting arts. Nothing. I think of it now, wow, blows my mind. And one might say television has nothing to do with History and I'd say "exactly."

Then I'd put on the History Channel and have a beer. And when I saw something I thought iffy, I could P.M you again and and say, Hey, Kirk, what up with this thing here, is this accurate?

I used to study fighters. A lot. Any fighters that I thought good. So, PRE VCR days,I had a home movie camera, one of those 8 millimeter film jobs. Three minute long film reels. Which was perfect for a round of boxing. I'd film Ray Leonard off of my television with that movie camera. I'd have twelve rolls of film by my side in case it went the distance. Then I'd bring the film to the development place, usually the local drug store, they would send them out, I'd pick it up ten days later or so.

Then one of the guys from dojo would borrow a projector and bring it down the dojo. We would project it on the wall and study the heck out of it.

But now? What, 30 seconds to google it?

I contest most strongly that the claim the "Martial Art's, especially learning the Martial Arts, HASN'T evolved more in the previous 50 years than ever before to be where the horeshit hits the road.

 

[Bruce7]

My time line is a little skewed as I consider things in my own personal time frame. In a couple of weeks it will be forty five years since earning my first Black Belt. Like everyone else, my opinions are based on personal experience of what, if any, research and experience I did and had throughout those years. And what I am particularly speaking of is the opportunities today to delve into the learning of various approaches to the arts as opposed to fifty years ago.

Your post seems to be leaning a little bit more to the history of military tactics and weapons. But I was born just six years after the Hiroshima bomb was dropped. It is my opinion that that bomb changed more about military history and danger than anything that ever came before it. And likely that will ever come after it. I know war is war and people dying horrible deaths is always going to be just that. And I know all about the realities of warfare in our own past as my dad fought trench warfare in World War 1.

But, to me, historically, anything before Little Boy and Fatman is different. They didn't just change things between the warring countries, they changed everything for everyone living on this planet.

As for the arts themselves, look at us right now. Having discussions on fighting, fighting history, warfare, Martial Arts and every single thing about them from either the comfort of our homes or while we are on the fly using a communication devices we carry in our pockets.

I could film something on my phone, send it to you in a private message on our forum, and ask, "Kirk, what's the deal behind this?"

I remember in the early seventies going into Boston's Chinatown to the biggest Martial Arts store and buying the Martial books of the time on so many different styles. They all had those one step techniques in series of still, black and white photos. You would look at them and try to figure out what was what, it was just so hard. But now? Just blows my mind.

I think back fifty years to one of my all time passions of personal entertainment, television. I think back to what was on it back then concerning fighting arts. Nothing. I think of it now, wow, blows my mind. And one might say television has nothing to do with History and I'd say "exactly."

Then I'd put on the History Channel and have a beer. And when I saw something I thought iffy, I could P.M you again and and say, Hey, Kirk, what up with this thing here, is this accurate?

I used to study fighters. A lot. Any fighters that I thought good. So, PRE VCR days,I had a home movie camera, one of those 8 millimeter film jobs. Three minute long film reels. Which was perfect for a round of boxing. I'd film Ray Leonard off of my television with that movie camera. I'd have twelve rolls of film by my side in case it went the distance. Then I'd bring the film to the development place, usually the local drug store, they would send them out, I'd pick it up ten days later or so.

Then one of the guys from dojo would borrow a projector and bring it down the dojo. We would project it on the wall and study the heck out of it.

But now? What, 30 seconds to google it?

I contest most strongly that the claim the "Martial Art's, especially learning the Martial Arts, HASN'T evolved more in the previous 50 years than ever before to be where the horeshit hits the road.

That is so cool I never thought of using an 8 mm to film a fight on TV.
We have gone a long way, I quit using cable TV 9 years ago, just netflix, hulu, etc.
Watching a form on youtube, being able to slow to quarter speed is amazing.

 

[dvcochran]

IMO the best change for MA was Bruce Lee.
IMO the worse change was belts for dollars.
The future needs another Bruce Lee.
I fear there is no way to stop belts for dollars.

I feel he was in a golden era that has past and nothing like it may come around again in our lifetime. With the rate at which information is assimilated nowadays I don't see it happening again.

 

[RTKDCMB]

moron martial arts perhaps ?

I'm pretty sure those are around already.

 

[psycosteve]

My limited understanding of the different martial arts has led me to a few conclusions. The first is that the movie industry around the world drives demand. People want good action and what looks good on camera is what people want to learn. Filipino stick and knife fighting are the Hollywood go-to martial art now. The second is that traditional martial arts are sold as a lifestyle improvement vs an actual combat art form. No one wants little Johnny snapping necks in elementary school. The third is that some martial arts will slightly change something or incorporate some aspects of another art and rebrand themselves. Adding combat or a region to the name will make it seem more appealing to the masses. To quote Yip Man "at some point every martial artist makes gung fu their own". JKD is Bruce Lee's version of WC with elements of other arts added to it. Kempo 5.0 is basically incorporating a ground game into the American Kempo art. Karate is getting popular again with the release of the Cobra Kai series. Wing Chun with the IP movies.

In 50 years I suspect that many schools will either get watered down for teaching young kids or be marketed to improve wellness unless it gets packaged and sold by Hollywood as the next killer martial art.

 

[dvcochran]

My limited understanding of the different martial arts has led me to a few conclusions. The first is that the movie industry around the world drives demand. People want good action and what looks good on camera is what people want to learn. Filipino stick and knife fighting are the Hollywood go-to martial art now. The second is that traditional martial arts are sold as a lifestyle improvement vs an actual combat art form. No one wants little Johnny snapping necks in elementary school. The third is that some martial arts will slightly change something or incorporate some aspects of another art and rebrand themselves. Adding combat or a region to the name will make it seem more appealing to the masses. To quote Yip Man "at some point every martial artist makes gung fu their own". JKD is Bruce Lee's version of WC with elements of other arts added to it. Kempo 5.0 is basically incorporating a ground game into the American Kempo art. Karate is getting popular again with the release of the Cobra Kai series. Wing Chun with the IP movies.

In 50 years I suspect that many schools will either get watered down for teaching young kids or be marketed to improve wellness unless it gets packaged and sold by Hollywood as the next killer martial art.

I cannot argue against your statements with exception to the last one. You are 50 years too late. This is happening right now and has been going on for about another 50 years when the arts were introduced into school systems.

My prediction for the future of martial arts is that they will continue to merge. Many off-shoot styles will disappear and the majors will continue to consolidate.
If you look at the las 20-30 years, the acquisitional corporate mentality has been living large.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I remember in the early seventies going into Boston's Chinatown to the biggest Martial Arts store and buying the Martial books of the time on so many different styles. They all had those one step techniques in series of still, black and white photos. You would look at them and try to figure out what was what, it was just so hard. But now? Just blows my mind.[/QUOTE}

I was getting those in a bookstore in Peabody, and ordering others from any of the multiple martial arts magazines that were around in the 70s. However I was depending on my parents to drive me to the store

I think back fifty years to one of my all time passions of personal entertainment, television. I think back to what was on it back then concerning fighting arts. Nothing. I think of it now, wow, blows my mind. And one might say television has nothing to do with History and I'd say "exactly."

Kung Fu with David Carradine. That and a friend of mine got me into martial arts

Prior to that was Batman and Robin and for a brief period of time the Green Hornet, and that had Bruce Lee. Interesting thing, as a kid, I knew who Bruce Lee was, but I was more impressed by David Carradine in Kung Fu...who ironically knew absolutely no martial arts at all. Was not long though, after I was in Jujutsu, that I figured out who was more impressive.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I cannot argue against your statements with exception to the last one. You are 50 years too late. This is happening right now and has been going on for about another 50 years when the arts were introduced into school systems.

My prediction for the future of martial arts is that they will continue to merge. Many off-shoot styles will disappear and the majors will continue to consolidate.
If you look at the las 20-30 years, the acquisitional corporate mentality has been living large.

I am not sure about the merging and acquisitions , Although I do think that those with the best Corporate / Governmental Sponsorships will survive the longest and most public.

The esoteric arts may go back to backyard gyms and alley training and once again get "Bad Reputations".

In the US, it is about the kids, and contracts and cycle time (Belts) and extra costs to stay in business.
In Germany, there is a governmental sponsorship for physical activity for adults and they have to belong to something (Sport like - activity like) and this provides numbers and cost for the overheard of an organization.
Many would still need to work other jobs, yet they have numbers.

As to the favorite or most popular in the US it will cycle as people always want the new (Even if it is old).

 

[Xue Sheng]

I hate this new system when it comes to multiple quotes it keeps adding an unnecessary Quote and messes up the whole thing

@Buka you posted
I remember in the early seventies going into Boston's Chinatown to the biggest Martial Arts store and buying the Martial books of the time on so many different styles. They all had those one step techniques in series of still, black and white photos. You would look at them and try to figure out what was what, it was just so hard. But now? Just blows my mind.

@Xue Sheng - My response
I was getting those in a bookstore in Peabody, and ordering others from any of the multiple martial arts magazines that were around in the 70s. However I was depending on my parents to drive me to the store

@Buka posted
I think back fifty years to one of my all time passions of personal entertainment, television. I think back to what was on it back then concerning fighting arts. Nothing. I think of it now, wow, blows my mind. And one might say television has nothing to do with History and I'd say "exactly."

@Xue Sheng - My response
Kung Fu with David Carradine. That and a friend of mine got me into martial arts

Prior to that was Batman and Robin and for a brief period of time the Green Hornet, and that had Bruce Lee. Interesting thing, as a kid, I knew who Bruce Lee was, but I was more impressed by David Carradine in Kung Fu...who ironically knew absolutely no martial arts at all. Was not long though, after I was in Jujutsu, that I figured out who was more impressive.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I hate this new system when it comes to multiple quotes it keeps adding an unnecessary Quote and messes up the whole thing

@Buka you posted
I remember in the early seventies going into Boston's Chinatown to the biggest Martial Arts store and buying the Martial books of the time on so many different styles. They all had those one step techniques in series of still, black and white photos. You would look at them and try to figure out what was what, it was just so hard. But now? Just blows my mind.

@Xue Sheng - My response
I was getting those in a bookstore in Peabody, and ordering others from any of the multiple martial arts magazines that were around in the 70s. However I was depending on my parents to drive me to the store

@Buka posted
I think back fifty years to one of my all time passions of personal entertainment, television. I think back to what was on it back then concerning fighting arts. Nothing. I think of it now, wow, blows my mind. And one might say television has nothing to do with History and I'd say "exactly."

@Xue Sheng - My response
Kung Fu with David Carradine. That and a friend of mine got me into martial arts

Prior to that was Batman and Robin and for a brief period of time the Green Hornet, and that had Bruce Lee. Interesting thing, as a kid, I knew who Bruce Lee was, but I was more impressed by David Carradine in Kung Fu...who ironically knew absolutely no martial arts at all. Was not long though, after I was in Jujutsu, that I figured out who was more impressive.

If you click on the brackets icon, you get the visible tags back, like it used to be.

 

[dvcochran]

I am not sure about the merging and acquisitions , Although I do think that those with the best Corporate / Governmental Sponsorships will survive the longest and most public.

The esoteric arts may go back to backyard gyms and alley training and once again get "Bad Reputations".

In the US, it is about the kids, and contracts and cycle time (Belts) and extra costs to stay in business.
In Germany, there is a governmental sponsorship for physical activity for adults and they have to belong to something (Sport like - activity like) and this provides numbers and cost for the overheard of an organization.
Many would still need to work other jobs, yet they have numbers.

As to the favorite or most popular in the US it will cycle as people always want the new (Even if it is old).

I agree but, at least for the US, you have crossed the line into generic physical activity. Which there is an almost ending list of. Similar to college rec/Co-Ed teams, there are leagues and 'pick-up' teams/games all across the country, in any sport you can imagine. Since climate dictates much of the outside activity, region dictates much of what is popular, at least for outside sports. However, even this is changing somewhat as more and more activities are available at inside rinks and arenas. There are even inside downhill skiing and ski jumping arenas now-a-days.

Back to MA's, corporately, I agree that kid's classes and belt programs keep many schools afloat. Especially when you consider there is zero government financial assistance like you mention, this is a logical augmentation in a capitalist financial environment. This model 'feeds' the wheel, so to speak. Growing the future clientele.

I love the German model for sponsorship and the adult requirement for physical activity. It makes a ton of sense, and I am certain helps with many, many, adult health issues.

Can the schools there operate in a for-profit mode?

 

[dvcochran]

Interesting thing, as a kid, I knew who Bruce Lee was, but I was more impressed by David Carradine in Kung Fu...who ironically knew absolutely no martial arts at all. Was not long though, after I was in Jujutsu, that I figured out who was more impressive.

When/how/why do you think this happened? Did it take becoming an adult (in age or MA) to learn this?

 

[Rich Parsons]

...

Can the schools there operate in a for-profit mode?

From my limited understanding, Yes. they can charge more than the governmental sponsorship.
Yet, if FMA charges an extra 25 Euros and TKD or TSD charges only an extra 20 Euros, well one can see where that aspect leads.

 

[Xue Sheng]

When/how/why do you think this happened? Did it take becoming an adult (in age or MA) to learn this?

I was 11 years old and saw David Carradine in Kung fu and the Green hornet did not really showcase Bruce Lee... and I was younger when that came on, Batman and Robin were awesome to me then. ...and I knew nothing about Bruce Lee. I only learned about Bruce Lee after I started Jujutsu, at the ripe old age of 12 and started reading martial art magazines....oh and of course Enter the Dragon came out and I heard my Sensei and other students talking about it.

 

[Hanzou]

In 50 years its going to be essentially what you're seeing currently in submission grappling and MMA; A hybridized system with no stylistic boundaries, yet highly contained within its given ruleset in order to allow competition and a high level of evolution and experimentation. That will be the predominant form of martial arts moving forward. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if we're at the point in 20 years.

I truly believe that the days of traditional MA are numbered. There's simply too much information out there, and there's really no way to hide a style's inherent deficiencies. Yeah, you can teach someone karate, but what does it matter learning forms and traditional fluff when the karate kid can just get decked by a boxer or a street fighter or dumped on their head by a wrestler? The good news for Karate and TKD is that their sport/competitive side will keep them going a bit longer.

For the traditional styles that don't offer competition to kids, they're in even worse shape, and will go extinct much sooner.

 

[Xue Sheng]

If you click on the brackets icon, you get the visible tags back, like it used to be.

I did, and it kept adding an ending quote no matter what I did.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Clearly the fellow would need to be me.

Well you are going to need an assistant… I’m a good toadie and I’m leash trained.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Clearly the fellow would need to be me.

Well you are the deputy royal grand imperial poobah, grandmaster of Xuefu international and the head of the West coast division already

 

[isshinryuronin]

Consolidation, organization and regulation has been the path of many things as seen in corporate, government, and sport. In TMA, this trend began in Japan in the 1920's and continued into the 30's. Numerous things affected this: Introduction of karate to the school system, government support, and commercial dojos. This was the biggest and most far-reaching change in TMA to occur and we are still feeling the effects.

The main effect of this was the division created - Besides TMA's combat orientation, sport competition and self-development branches evolved, resulting in three subsets of the art, each with its own trajectory (and their own individual variants). I think the next 50 years will just be more of the same.

There are schools that try to balance all three, but when talking of MA's future, I think we need to specify which subset branch we're talking about. Each will have its own future.