What other options did this LEO have?

[Kittan Bachika]

What other options did this LEO have?

Video
http://youtu.be/M6yJHGAwU2g

http://abcnews.go.com/US/arizona-police-officer-body-slams-drunk-teen-girl/story?id=13545127

What other options did this LEO have? In terms of LEO policy, this might fall in a grey area, but honestly, was there any need for this? Watch any COPS episode where they deal with a drunk and disorderly person and they use a lot of restraint. In fact there are some instances on COPS where the perpetrators are far more violent that that girl.

This girl was showed behavior of being drunk and violent. However, all she was doing was walking away.

The LEO could have grabbed one of her arms and restrained. Or even use taser or pepper spray.

What might have been best if both LEOs came from behind, restrained and overwhelmed her by bringing her to the ground.

What do you all think?

 

[searcher]

She was walking away and most likely commanded to stop, which she did not do. The officer could have slowed and not flattened her quite that bad. She had just finished assaulting a school official and her mother. She was intoxicated and did turn towards the officer with the POSSIBLE intent of doing the officer harm.

I think she is fotrunate to not have been seriously hurt in the incident. I think the officer is fortunate that the girl did not have a weapon and turn quicker with the purpose of killing him.


Other options: Taser, Taser, Pepperspray, Taser. Those are the ones I prefer. He quite possibly slowed down and put her in a lock.

 

[Kittan Bachika]

She was walking away and most likely commanded to stop, which she did not do. The officer could have slowed and not flattened her quite that bad. She had just finished assaulting a school official and her mother. She was intoxicated and did turn towards the officer with the POSSIBLE intent of doing the officer harm.

I think she is fotrunate to not have been seriously hurt in the incident. I think the officer is fortunate that the girl did not have a weapon and turn quicker with the purpose of killing him.


Other options: Taser, Taser, Pepperspray, Taser. Those are the ones I prefer. He quite possibly slowed down and put her in a lock.

Not denying the facts. But as I have said before, there were other options. It was obvious that she was unarmed since she was walking with hands in plain view. And she was not running away. I was watching an episode of COPS w ehre a LEO walked in on a man holding a knife to the throat of another man. He pulled his weapon and ordered the man to drop the knife and assume the position. It was obvious there that man was a threat.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Not denying the facts. But as I have said before, there were other options. It was obvious that she was unarmed since she was walking with hands in plain view.

It was not obvious she was unarmed.
She was not holding a weapon at that particular time. Doesn't mean she didn't have one in easy reach. I can have my spyderco out, open and going through a box of cardboard within 2 seconds. So could she. If she had one. Which the cop could not know.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

It was not obvious she was unarmed.
She was not holding a weapon at that particular time. Doesn't mean she didn't have one in easy reach. I can have my spyderco out, open and going through a box of cardboard within 2 seconds. So could she. If she had one. Which the cop could not know.

ya I side with the law enforcement officer on this one. The girl had already committed crimes, she was fleeing from the scene, there were to many unknowns to allow her to leave, or to allow her to possibly reorient for an attack on the officers or someone else.
I have no problem with it... if she was just leaving from the officer and didnt want to talk to him and this happened for no reason ya I would say put the cop in the jail, but I feel that he was justified.... does it look harsh? sure, but the girl should have thought about that before she started breaking laws.

 

[shesulsa]

She was violent to someone else - that raises the price of poker.

I really don't think he did anything wrong here. She was D&D - she likely would not have felt the pepper spray and perhaps not even the tasing would go well.

But I'm curious - do you think she would have fallen lighter or something if she'd been tased? Not a lot of difference here. Seems he did his job.

 

[Archangel M]

While I don't think I would have handled that in the same way (her head hitting that wall could result in brain injury or death IMO), I think that the whole discussion illustrates the conflicting stuff we hear from the public regarding use of force. Use hands on and you get asked why you had to push/punch/shove/kneel on people and why couldn't you tase or OC them. Tase or OC them and you get the monday morning quarterbacking of why you didn't try to use hands on. God help you if you are caught baton striking someones legs..why didn't you use a Taser? Kill a knife wielding man and the "why did he have to shoot to kill" crap starts...and on and on. What it looks like people really want is an "officer friendly" who can get drunk resisters to submit with a please of thank you and if that doesn't work some fancy joint locks that plain don't work in the real world.

While I do believe that police use of force should be open to scrutiny, I don't think that a little consistency is too much to ask for.

 

[seasoned]

Leaving the scene of an assault with one person (older person) down. The officer arriving has seconds to determine the situation and act appropriately. It appeared that the officer did say something to the departing person with "no response" as the officer picks up his foot speed to catch up. These situations never turn out to everyones liking, but there is a moral to the story. If you assault someone, and cops arrive, don't leave. Lie prone position face down, with your hands behind your back, on your own, or with his help, once he gets to you.

 

[ATACX GYM]

What other options did this LEO have?

Video
http://youtu.be/M6yJHGAwU2g

http://abcnews.go.com/US/arizona-police-officer-body-slams-drunk-teen-girl/story?id=13545127

What other options did this LEO have? In terms of LEO policy, this might fall in a grey area, but honestly, was there any need for this? Watch any COPS episode where they deal with a drunk and disorderly person and they use a lot of restraint. In fact there are some instances on COPS where the perpetrators are far more violent that that girl.

This girl was showed behavior of being drunk and violent. However, all she was doing was walking away.

The LEO could have grabbed one of her arms and restrained. Or even use taser or pepper spray.

What might have been best if both LEOs came from behind, restrained and overwhelmed her by bringing her to the ground.

What do you all think?

I faced a very similar situation when I was working HRSP in the notoriously dangerous N.W.A. projects in Compton 14 years ago.There were 3 girls and at least 1 was armed. I knew this from the angry wails of the mother sister and grandmother whom these girls scuffled with. I closed on the girls--I'm only 5'7" and at the time I was only 146 or so pounds,each of the girls were taller and the smallest one outweighed me by some 20 pounds--and the girl in question turned toward me as I closed on her. She went for the alleged knife (after the arrest I discovered the knife wasn't so "alleged") that she had in her waistband,I hooked her with a arm-drag-tenkan-power Nelson that spun her quickly and decisively to the ground.Wristlock control and it was over.Not even 3 seconds.Her friends made noises like they were gonna do something,I slapped the gun in my holster,they kept their distance as I cuffed the perp.

The cop could have and should have done that too.The running power shove that he used to lift the girl off of her feet was uncalled for.A tie up and using his body to pin her against the wall would work well as he locked up a wrist and cuffed her,then cuffed her other hand.She couldn't do a thing as his larger stronger heavier body pinned her against the wall.

I understand the respect for policemen that many posters here have but flat out it's not excusable what he did.He shouldn't necessarily be fired but that was too much force for this situation. As for the claims as to whether she was armed or not? Well,the mother and school official would have been able to attest to whether or not the drunk girl was using a weapon in her assault upon them. If the cops had any doubts about whether she was armed or not? A taser should have been deployed.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Leaving the scene of an assault with one person (older person) down. The officer arriving has seconds to determine the situation and act appropriately. It appeared that the officer did say something to the departing person with "no response" as the officer picks up his foot speed to catch up. These situations never turn out to everyones liking, but there is a moral to the story. If you assault someone, and cops arrive, don't leave. Lie prone position face down, with your hands behind your back, on your own, or with his help, once he gets to you.

Or the moral could be: "If you do something stupid like this,don't expect a tenderhearted response."

 

[Kittan Bachika]

Thanks for the responses. I am still keeping my original position. But you have all made excellent points and I am understanding why the LEO took this option. I do not think it was the best one but it probably falls under their department's guidelines.

For the LEOs out there, what would you have done?

 

[jks9199]

Is it what I would have done? Probably not. Is it exactly what the officer INTENDED to do? I don't think so; I don't think he decided to launch himself headlong into a wall if he missed, and looking at some of how he moved -- I think he may have tripped or lost his balance, contributing to a much more forceful take down than he intended.

But that's immaterial to the simple question at hand: was the force excessive to achieve control? In assessing that, we have to consider the officer's knowledge and condition, as well as the circumstances at hand. He was dealing with an assailant; a person who had already attacked at least one person, possibly more. He utilized his body weapons, in a manner reasonably likely to obtain control, though perhaps with a greater chance of injury to the subject than the least possible force. It's not perfect, but I think he'd be within an acceptable range.

 

[chinto]

OK, my two cents worth.

your a cop, you come up on a woman down, and the person who was assaulting her is walking away. you have not had time to examine her for wounds! you say to her "stop there!" or even "Halt Police!" or perhaps, " pretty please with sugar on top stop!" You are ignored.

Does she ( or he ) have a knife? some fatal Knife wounds do not bleed hardly at all! ( Ex EMT here.. ) does she have a small fire arm of some kind? so you can play nice, and grab her and find out that she does the hard way, or you can try for a lock and take down if you train and do so regularly.... or you can basically knock her off her feet. each is not optimal... the other options are pepper spray, impact weapon, tazzer if you have one... or draw a weapon and escalate to possible deadly force....

I think he could have used pepper spray, a lot of drunks will feel that... but might not. it was less force then an impact weapon over all would have used... optimal, no, effective and reasonably measured.. after a fashion.

I would have gone with the pepper spray or the impact weapon to the hamstring i think. less legal claims provably... but if she had a knife or gun.. could sacrifice that surprise and get you killed...

on a hole it was a C to C- for the officer, but reasonable.

 

[Balrog]

She had just been involved in a fight. When the officer moved toward her, she made a motion with her hands that could have been taken as going for a weapon. I'd have knocked her on her ***, too.

 

[RobinTKD]

It was not obvious she was unarmed.
She was not holding a weapon at that particular time. Doesn't mean she didn't have one in easy reach. I can have my spyderco out, open and going through a box of cardboard within 2 seconds. So could she. If she had one. Which the cop could not know.

So the fact that she was wearing nothing but a t-shirt and short-shorts doesn't make it obvious to you that she wasn't holding a weapon?

In England, this would be classed as excessive force, firstly the police officer made a fist BEFORE he made physical contact, secondly, he engaged the suspect alone, his partner should have helped if they believed she was a threat.

I'd say it was a brutal assault.

 

[shesulsa]

So the fact that she was wearing nothing but a t-shirt and short-shorts doesn't make it obvious to you that she wasn't holding a weapon?

Um ... I keep at least one knife on a bra strap - right where it looks like she was reaching when the officer reached her. I know someone else who keeps one in his underwear. In the summer no less, so tee shirts and shorts don't reveal weapons.

In England, this would be classed as excessive force, firstly the police officer made a fist BEFORE he made physical contact, secondly, he engaged the suspect alone, his partner should have helped if they believed she was a threat.

I'd say it was a brutal assault.

This is a strange argument you make here. "He made a fist before he made physical contact" When do you propose he make the fist? Afterwards? "He engaged the suspect alone" ... this must be an England thing.

It's not obvious in the video what happened to the black woman when the suspect left - it appears she may have been on the ground - where it looks like a knife lays. If there are only two officers, it appears there are two different tasks to attend to quickly - a victim (potentially) and a perpetrator. Are you saying the two should never separate?

Hm.

Where did this incident happen?

 

[OKenpo942]

Very sad that so many are so quick to persecute a man who is sworn to enforce the law and protect others. Bottom line here is that he is going home after his shift and did what he recognized as necessary without the luxury of watching the video after the fact as all of us have.

He was called to a volatile situation where one was clearly injured and the assailant was noncompliant or at least attempting to leave the scene. One can also have a weapon on their person without using it in the initial assault. Let's not forget that law enforcement are to treat everyone as though they are armed until they able to be sure that the "turd" is not armed (many times this cannot be determined until after the arrest is made).

Hesitation is cause for permanent meditation (stolen from Ed Parker's "He who hesitates, meditates in a horizontal position".) I think all turned out well. The 15 year old brat is going where she needs to go (juvenile detention) and so is the officer (home).

Why is it that we call on our officers to do a job they most don't want to or can't do and then sit back and bash them. Don't assault people and not expect to get your butt kicked. I applaud the officer for doing his job.

Do what's right and you don't have to worry about the consequences.

Thanks and God bless,

James (LEO)

 

[shesulsa]

The ABC newslink is now defunct - am I reading that right, that this took place in Arizona?

 

[WC_lun]

I think people are very quick to judge peace officers harshly. Yeah, there are ocassions where officers go too far and in those cases the officers should be dealt with. However, put yourself in the officer's place. He arrives on scene of an assault. He does not know if a weapon is involved or not. The main suspect is non-complient and resisiting. What do you do to take control of the situation asap? Say a couple of calming words to the young woman who just assaulted someone? No. You do everything in your power to control the situation as quick as possible so no one else gets hurt, including the officers. If the young woman makes that difficult, then life gets difficult for her by her own choosing. If she had complied we would have nothing to discuss.

 

[Carol]

So the fact that she was wearing nothing but a t-shirt and short-shorts doesn't make it obvious to you that she wasn't holding a weapon?

I wouldn't bet my life on that.