At what point should you refuse or stop teaching someone martial arts?

[Gerry Seymour]

I’ve been considering getting a training group going in the park after Covid is under control. I want to keep costs down, hence use a public space like a park. I want the group to remain small. I don’t expect to get rich from this. If I can make a bit of spending money, great. Mostly, I would like to find a small group of like-minded people who enjoy training together. I appreciate that camaraderie. But I do know that I need liability insurance if I teach. It isn’t terribly expensive, but I would like to at least recover that cost, even if I start with just one or two students. I don’t want to spend my money for the privilege of teaching people who are, at least in the beginning, strangers. But if I can break even, maybe make a small profit, and have a good group to work with, that would be great.

If there is a need for someone to not pay, I am open to that possibility, depending on the circumstances.

If you haven't looked into it already, there are outfits that offer per-student liability insurance targeted at MA. For small outfits, it's a decent way to get coverage without too much cost.

 

[Buka]

I can vouch for this. The last time I was on the Island, Buka fed me as soon as I got off the plane. I hadn’t even left the airport yet. And damn, was it good.

Hoping to get back after Covid is under control.

You like eggplant parmesan, brother? If so, that will await you next time. I make a pretty good one.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Consider approaching your local YMCA.

Agreed. Also worth approaching MA schools to see if any have open time slots they'd be willing to let you fill. I let the school charge students to attend my class. I don't make anything (we'd renegotiate this if I ever had more than a tiny class of students), but I get free space and use of the equipment.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Agreed. Also worth approaching MA schools to see if any have open time slots they'd be willing to let you fill. I let the school charge students to attend my class. I don't make anything (we'd renegotiate this if I ever had more than a tiny class of students), but I get free space and use of the equipment.

I think existing martial arts schools would be extremely interested, especially if it gives them the opportunity to share the cost of a building. That why they don't pay full price, and you won't pay full price. It's a win - win and the place is all set up. Just make sure you get such agreements in writing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some may. Many won't.

This statement can fit on almost everything on this planet.

John has a habit of arguing the extremes.

Even if you always stay in the middle, people may still disagree with you.

Sometime people pretend to be in the middle, but the truth is he is not.

A: There are very fine people on both sides.
B: Sorry that I have to disagree with you on this.

 

[Flying Crane]

If you haven't looked into it already, there are outfits that offer per-student liability insurance targeted at MA. For small outfits, it's a decent way to get coverage without too much cost.

Ive done a bit of research on martial arts specific insurance so I have an idea of what is available. Need to look more and will do so when I feel like the time is right.

 

[Flying Crane]

You like eggplant parmesan, brother? If so, that will await you next time. I make a pretty good one.

I’m not an eggplant guy, but that last one was wonderful, tuna salad sandwich must have been made with fresh tuna? What a difference! Best I’ve ever had. And the chicken soup, excellent. We need to get there when it’s safe to travel again. Would love to visit with you a bit.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Ive done a bit of research on martial arts specific insurance so I have an idea of what is available. Need to look more and will do so when I feel like the time is right.

I have heard to join in AAU will get the best insurance deal.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Even if you always stay in the middle, people may still disagree with you.

That's why I don't worry. I just say what I believe and accept that not everyone will agree and that there will be people that will clash with that belief. Better to be honest about what I believe and honest about my opinion. Even if a person is on the extremes. It's still good to know even if other people don't agree or see differently.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I just say what I believe.

If you don't care to be a popular politician, you can say everything from the bottom of your heart.

Life is too short to lie to yourself.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think existing martial arts schools would be extremely interested, especially if it gives them the opportunity to share the cost of a building. That why they don't pay full price, and you won't pay full price. It's a win - win and the place is all set up. Just make sure you get such agreements in writing.

Many won't be interested, because ego and insecurity. I know my primary instructor would never welcome such an arrangement. There are three dojos in my area in the same style (all from the same "parent" instructor). Two were welcoming (one had no space, so sent me to the other, where I now teach, and the third never responded. I later learned that the third scoffed at the very idea of another instructor (of any style, including his own) in his school.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This statement can fit on almost everything on this planet.


Even if you always stay in the middle, people may still disagree with you.

Sometime people pretend to be in the middle, but the truth is he is not.

A: There are very fine people on both sides.
B: Sorry that I have to disagree with you on this.

Case in point.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Case in point.

Here is an example.

A: Sport is my path and combat is my goal.
B: Sport is my path and sport is also my goal.
C: To some people, sport is their path and combat is their goal. To others people, sport is their path and also their goal.

Both A and B are extreme and may offend others. C is in the middle. C's opinion will never offend anybody.

If all our forum members have opinion like C has, there won't be anything worthwhile for discussion.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I would lead the class, with a Santa hat on of course. I would always start off the same way, I'd sing "On the first day of Christmas my true love gave to me....a front kick to the nose."

All the students would then throw a front kick, with a kiai. (only kiai in the game)

Then I'd sing "On the second day of Christmas my true love gave to me - and I'd point to a student, usually a kid, and he'd say, nice and loud, "On the second day of Christmas my true love gave to me...two jump, spinning hook kicks" and the class would throw two jump spinners, and we'd all shout loudly AND A FRONT KICK TO THE NOSE! (with Kiai)

On five, the slow Five Golden Rings line from the song I'd always sing....five seconds rest. And as the song went on that became really important.

The rules were, if someone called out a kick that you couldn't throw, or hadn't learned yet, just throw something else, just have fun.

So by the end of the Twelve Kicks of Christmas you might have...

Twelve hoping side kicks, eleven front leg round houses, ten 360 wheel kicks (hey, they picked em, not me) nine fall away side kicks, eight iron broom sweeps, seven slashing axe kicks, six hopping front leg reverse crescents, FIVE SECONDS REST (where everyone was bent over panting) four blah blah blahs etc.

At the final kick we'd all scream Merry Christmas and I'd yell "let's eat!"

The class was always packed, twenty to fifty students. And to play you were responsible for those around you, no errant kicks to anyone else. And there never was.

It was a tradition that went on for almost forty years. Turkeys and the Twelve Kicks of Christmas. Busiest night of the year. One of the most fun, too.

You can train them as hard as you want, as long as they're having fun.View attachment 23640

I love this idea!

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Here is an example.

A: Sport is my path and combat is my goal.
B: Sport is my path and sport is also my goal.
C: To some people, sport is their path and combat is their goal. To others people, sport is their path and also their goal.

Both A and B are extreme and may offend others. C is in the middle. C's opinion will never offend anybody.

If all our forum members have opinion like C has, there won't be anything worthwhile for discussion.

Do you want to see all thread discussion will be like this?

A: What's your opinion about "WC boxing"?
B: Some people like it, many people don't.
C: Many people like it, some don't.
D: I can't care less about whether people may like it or not.
E: You should ask that question to your instructor, teacher, Sensi, coach, Sifu, ...
F: Don't expect to get free opinion online.
G: ...

There's plenty of discussion to come from C. More than from A and B conversing. If A is talking about whether X is good for combat, B is saying "it doesn't matter, since it works in the sport", and vice versa. Only with C can you say "How can we train x for both combat and sport?"

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Most discussion come from extreme point of view.

A: What's the relationship between sport and combat?
B: To some people, sport is their path and combat is their goal. To others people, sport is their path and also their goal.
C: Agree!
D: Agree!
... No more posts after that.

A: What's the relationship between sport and combat?
B: Sport is the path and combat is the goal.
C: Disagree! To some people, sport is their path and also their goal.
B: ...
C: ...
... More discussion after this ...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There's plenty of discussion to come from C. More than from A and B conversing. If A is talking about whether X is good for combat, B is saying "it doesn't matter, since it works in the sport", and vice versa. Only with C can you say "How can we train x for both combat and sport?"

If there is no disagreement, a thread discussion cannot continue.

For example,

You: There's plenty of discussion to come from C.
I: I agree with you 100% on what you have said.
You: Thank you!
I: You are welcome!

As far as my post is concern, my post will end right there. Because if I agree with you, I have nothing more to say.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If there is no disagreement, a thread discussion cannot continue.

For example,

You: There's plenty of discussion to come from C.
I: I agree with you 100% on what you have said.
You: Thank you!
I: You are welcome!

As far as my post is concern, my post will end right there. Because if I agree with you, I have nothing more to say.

The disagreement of "this is what I want from it" doesn't generate discussion though. At least once people realize they have different goals. And any discussion that is generated from that is pointless. The disagreement of "how can I best achieve my goal" does allow for useful discussion.

As for your example, here's how it would relate to discussing discussions.
A: I like disagreements because I want to discuss things.
B: I don't like disagreements because I want peace.
C: Some people like and some people don't like disagreements.

A talking to A can result in discussion, or A talking to C. But because they happen to agree on that one thing, doesn't mean discussion cannot happen. That's where nuance comes in...for instance, with A: Let's say I like disagreements to discuss things, but only if it's useful, and you like disagreements regardless of how useful it is, or you may like violent disagreements. Despite us both agreeing with A, we now have a dispute about that statement that we can discuss.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Let's say I like disagreements to discuss things, but only if it's useful, ...

Meng Zi (孟子) said, "Sometime one argues because he has no option". The funny thing is when he said that, he was arguing right at that moment.

When you comment my post as the "worst logic in this thread". I have to argue that particular logic was created 2,500 years ago.

Wow you might be beating rat's accomplishment of worst logic in this thread.

The Goodness-Harm Quadrant.

By refusing the reward, you lead others to think accepting the reward money is being greedy.

This logic was formed over 2,500 years ago (551 BC - 479 BC). I just quote the famous ancient Chinese stories.

1. Zi Gong released slave (子贡赎人), and
2. Zi Lu accepted cow (子路受牛).

“In performing good deeds, there is also what seems to be goodness, but is actually not, and what does not appear to be goodness, but actually is.

1. Unintentional Harm - Zi Gong released slave:

For example, in the Spring-Autumn Period, there was a country named Lu. Because there were other countries which took their citizens as slaves or servants, the country of Lu made a law which rewarded those who paid the ransom to regain the freedom of their fellow citizens. At that time, Confucius had a very rich student named Zi Gong. Although Zi Gong paid for the ransom to free his people, he did not accept the reward for doing such a deed. He did it out of good intentions, seeking only to help others and not for the reward money.

But when Confucius heard this, he was very unhappy and scolded him, saying,

‘You acted wrongly in this matter. When saints and sages undertake anything, they strive to improve the social demeanor, teaching the common folk to be good and decent people. One should not do something just because one feels like it. In the country of Lu, the poor outnumber the wealthy. By refusing the reward, you lead others to think accepting the reward money is being greedy. Thus, all the poor people and others who do not wish to appear greedy will hesitate to pay for ransom in the future. Only very rich people will have a chance to practice this deed. If this happens, no one will pay the ransom to free our people again.’

2. Intentional Goodness - Zi Lu accepted cow:

Another student of Confucius, Zi Lu, once saw a man drowning in a river and went forth to rescue him. Later, the man thanked him by giving him a cow as a token of gratitude. Zi Lu accepted the gift. Confucius was happy when he heard this and said,

‘In the future, people will be willing and eager to help those who are drowning in deep waters or lakes.’

If we look from the view of the common people, Zi Gong, who did not accept the reward money, was good. And Zi Lu, who accepted the cow, was not as good. Who would have known that Confucius praised Zi Lu instead and scolded Zi Gong?

From this, we can see that those who practice kind deeds must not only look at the present outcome, but should consider the act’s effect in the long run. One should not only consider one’s own gain and loss, but should look to see the impact made on the public. What we do right now may be good, but with passing years, it may inflict harm upon others. Therefore, what seems like goodness may in fact be the opposite. And what appears to be the opposite of goodness may someday turn out to be goodness done after all.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you don't care to be a popular politician, you can say everything from the bottom of your heart.

Life is too short to lie to yourself.

Yep which is why I'm not a politician lol. Come to think of it, I'm not popular either. But I'm happy. lol