What makes a Martial Arts System Practical for Physical Self-Defense?

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yeah, and if students are swayed by the ability to poke a 70-year-old guy in the chest without warning, there's not much real thought going on.

It just show you how crazy the MA community can be.

Believe it or not. One day someone knocked on my front door during the evening. It was a guy with his girl friend (the girl had a video camera). This guy wants to challenge me in Taiji push hand. I told him that I don't do Taiji push hand. But I can spar or wrestle with him. He said that he had bad knee and cannot wrestle any more. We just sat in my living room and talk. After he left, I have never seen him since then. That was more than 30 years ago.

Crazy thing like this could happen in US as well.

 

[dvcochran]

I don't understand the need for the instructor to seem invulnerable. I just don't get it.

The Machismo that another thread is talking about.

 

[drop bear]

So gain that experience in sanctioned bouts. The benefits are:

• Rules for player safety
• Referees for player safety
• Medical personnel on-site for player safety

Are you noticing a theme here?

Plus, I wouldn't exactly call myself young anymore. Maybe by @Dirty Dog 's standards. I'm not old yet, but I'm not young.

It seems like there is this idea that if there are gloves and rules the the situation is automatically safe and probably not that bad.

The reality of the situation is different.

If you get trapped in a ring with a guy who doesn't like you and is a much more competent fighter then you can be in serious trouble. And it is a real thing in combat sports.

You can be placed in a situation with rules and with pads where you are at the mercy of the guy attacking you. And there is enough tools in the shed to seriously injure you. Especially if it is in a gym and not a sanctioned fight.

That guy in my last video used to spar serious pro fighters and has been badly injured in those sessions. They were sessions you basically don't go to because fighters who were definitely out of my league would really go for you.

You think it is some sort of joke. But it is a real self defence situation some times.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is a very famous video clip. When the Chen Taiji master Chen Xiao Wang visited Taiwan from China, a young guy challenged him in push hand. After the young guy push on Chen's chest, the young guy announced that he had defeated the Taiji master Chen Xiao Wang.

May be the MA culture in China and Taiwan is different from the MA culture in US.

Yeah it's different in the U.S. We are more of a medal culture, so if for the most part it's not real unless you have the medals tor trophies o prove it. Some people still challenge others though. Before I joined a second Jow Ga School, a stranger came to the school and challenged the instructors to a fight, the sifu of the school wasn't there that day. The instructors didn't accept the challenge and the Sifu was disappointed that they didn't.

It's probably good that they didn't accept the challenge. They probably wouldn't have won using Kung Fu. If I was in the school then and had the skill set that I do now, then I would have accept the challenge as soon as he signed a wavier. I would also set rules even though it's a challenge. Then I would fight as if there are no rules, meaning that I will fight as if my opponent will try to sneak attack me and do cheap shots. But I would follow the rules myself., unless my opponent broke the rules.

I don't see anything wrong with Challenges. So long as they are respectful. The fastest way to gain or lose a reputation is through a challenge.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It seems like there is this idea that if there are gloves and rules the the situation is automatically safe and probably not that bad.

My perspective is to have rules. The fight with the expectation that your opponent will break the rules. That way, it keeps you from lowering your defenses.

Charlie Z is not respectful and the guys in that clip probably already knew. Charlie is the type of guy a lot of people want to fight because of the sucker punches he gives people.

Keep in mind that these aren't challenge fights. These were supposed to be friend "get some exercise" sparring.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Someone like this deserves to get the beat down.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I would have accept the challenge as soon as he signed a wavier. I would also set rules even though it's a challenge.

Agree with you 100% there. Many years ago, at the end of a US SC tournament, the SC tournament champion challenged my senior SC brother David C. K. Lin. He didn't want to accept that challenge. I accepted that challenged for him. Later on David said I should not accept that challenge without people to sign a wavier. I was young and I didn't pay attention on those legal issue back then.

I had been challenged as:

- Kick and punch only, no throw.
- Punch only, no kick, no throw.
- Wrestling only, no strike.
- Taiji push hand only.
- Arm wrestling only.

IMO, it makes no sense to let a challenger to set the rules. If someone wants to challenge you, you should set the rules. If the challenger has bad knee and cannot wrestle, he should not challenge you in the first place.

 

[skribs]

You can be placed in a situation with rules and with pads where you are at the mercy of the guy attacking you. And there is enough tools in the shed to seriously injure you. Especially if it is in a gym and not a sanctioned fight.

Hence why I said "sanctioned bouts." There you go again. Changing what I said so you can argue against it.

Even then, where the sanctioned bout doesn't eliminate the risks, it does mitigate them, for the reasons I said. Yes, the rules may be broken, but they are less likely to be. Yes, the ref may stop the fight late, but it's going to be better than there not being a ref to stop the fight.

 

[skribs]

Charlie Z is not respectful and the guys in that clip probably already knew. Charlie is the type of guy a lot of people want to fight because of the sucker punches he gives people.

Keep in mind that these aren't challenge fights. These were supposed to be friend "get some exercise" sparring.

All the more reason not to fight some rando off the street.

 

[WaterGal]

Show of hands. How many people have actually had this happen?

On the rare chance that it did, I would politely decline. And if he pressed the issue, I would call the police.

Maybe 8 or 10 years ago, I was taking part in a TKD demonstration at a local festival. A young man, who was obviously a bit intoxicated, came up and demanded to fight us. We politely declined and, yes, IIRC, told him we'd alert the police if he didn't go away. He went away.

 

[skribs]

Maybe 8 or 10 years ago, I was taking part in a TKD demonstration at a local festival. A young man, who was obviously a bit intoxicated, came up and demanded to fight us. We politely declined and, yes, IIRC, told him we'd alert the police if he didn't go away. He went away.

Even that's different than a black belt premeditatedly walking into your dojo during class.

 

[drop bear]

Hence why I said "sanctioned bouts." There you go again. Changing what I said so you can argue against it.

Even then, where the sanctioned bout doesn't eliminate the risks, it does mitigate them, for the reasons I said. Yes, the rules may be broken, but they are less likely to be. Yes, the ref may stop the fight late, but it's going to be better than there not being a ref to stop the fight.

The challenges mentioned by kung fu Wang won't have been sanctioned bouts.

So you just decided to change what he was saying?

 

[WaterGal]

Even that's different than a black belt premeditatedly walking into your dojo during class.

Yeah, that's true. We do sometimes have TKD black belts from other schools come by to try a class. Some of them end up signing up. One acted like a jerk and we had to kick him out. But none of them came and demanded to challenge the instructor, lol.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

It seems like there is this idea that if there are gloves and rules the the situation is automatically safe and probably not that bad.

The reality of the situation is different.

If you get trapped in a ring with a guy who doesn't like you and is a much more competent fighter then you can be in serious trouble. And it is a real thing in combat sports.

You can be placed in a situation with rules and with pads where you are at the mercy of the guy attacking you. And there is enough tools in the shed to seriously injure you. Especially if it is in a gym and not a sanctioned fight.

That guy in my last video used to spar serious pro fighters and has been badly injured in those sessions. They were sessions you basically don't go to because fighters who were definitely out of my league would really go for you.

You think it is some sort of joke. But it is a real self defence situation some times.

To be fair, actual undegrounded sanctioned fights tend to not back people who break rules. Like there are sanctioned unsanctioned fights and if you are known as "that guy"no one will probbly fight you or host you. Actualy thats sort of the same with not undergroudn fights, the Zenov thing was a bunch of people who probbly should have known better enabling him.

Now dont get me wrong there are to the death fights underground and that nonsense, like they might let them stomp on you, so you could get really hurt if they jump on you with their knee three times in the head.

 

[drop bear]

To be fair, actual undegrounded sanctioned fights tend to not back people who break rules. Like there are sanctioned unsanctioned fights and if you are known as "that guy"no one will probbly fight you or host you. Actualy thats sort of the same with not undergroudn fights, the Zenov thing was a bunch of people who probbly should have known better enabling him.

Now dont get me wrong there are to the death fights underground and that nonsense, like they might let them stomp on you, so you could get really hurt if they jump on you with their knee three times in the head.

There is a culture in some gyms that you fight whoever they put in front of you. This is part of building a warrior ethos.

 

[skribs]

The challenges mentioned by kung fu Wang won't have been sanctioned bouts.

So you just decided to change what he was saying?

I addressed the situation he said, and then added this is the only way I'd fight some rando who came in. But, I shouldn't be surprised you're trying to accuse me of what you did, when I didn't. Typical of you.

Yeah, that's true. We do sometimes have TKD black belts from other schools come by to try a class. Some of them end up signing up. One acted like a jerk and we had to kick him out. But none of them came and demanded to challenge the instructor, lol.

Which is still different than a challenge.

 

[JowGaWolf]

All the more reason not to fight some rando off the street.

It doesn't matter to me. I've sparred against strangers before.. But I always had my defense fully activated even if my attacking power wasn't. When I was in my 20's I worked at a community center where a guy new muy thai. My friend/ co-worker and I used to spar during the down times, and this one guy wanted to join as well. His bragged about his Muy Thai. I set the rules, He used a low kick to my leg but I raised my knee the kick went under. The kick was hard as spun around and tried to take my head off with a spinning backfist. My defense was tight. His fist fell on my guard. He thought he could suck punch me, He failed. I corrected him. He did it again after the first warning. His spinning back fist failed again. I warned him again.

Twice I stopped his serious attacks with ease, it didn't even scare me, make me mad,. I was calm and that probably made him nervous. My second warning was harsh. I told him that I will return the favor if he tries it again. He never did. He also stop sparring with me. So out of all of this what did I gain?

Here's what I gained.
1. I have a video of it somewhere it's on VHS if I can find it I will share it.
2. My self-defense skills using Karate that day was verified as still valid (I was taking Jow Ga back then but didn't know how to fight with it, so I had to fall back on my Karate).
3. I had a witness (my friend) there and he was able to see me validate all that I was teaching him.
4. Self-reflection. I now had a better idea of my abilities not just in a friendly sparring match but against someone who tried to throw cheap shots, Against a stranger.
5. And I have this small but cool story about how someone tried to sucker punch me twice and how I came out on top.
6. When people ask me about my experience this one of the examples I can give when I teach and as an example of my ability.

It may not seem like much from the outside, but for me on the inside. It was an honest confidence builder about my ability to physically defend myself. In the context of business, people that I teach self-defense to like this little part of my life. It puts the questions of "can I really use what I teach" to rest. There have been a few moms who trusted me with teaching their son or daughter how to fight and use self-defense. Could it have gone bad. Sure of course. There's a lot of things in life that can go bad, but sometimes you have to trust your ability to analyze others.

Do I think everyone should accept challenge fights? Definitely not. For me personally I'm always honest with my limits. I wouldn't accept one if I had a strong feeling I would lose without the possibility of winning.

 

[drop bear]

I addressed the situation he said, and then added this is the only way I'd fight some rando who came in. But, I shouldn't be surprised you're trying to accuse me of what you did, when I didn't. Typical of you.



Which is still different than a challenge.

Which of course side steps the issue of ever having to fight anyone.

Which is fine unless you are seeking self defence training off that guy.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There is a culture in some gyms that you fight whoever they put in front of you. This is part of building a warrior ethos.

This is the reality when you one school spars with another school. The owners of the school may know each other, but the students probably won't. My first trip to the Sanda school, I sparred with all of their students there, I didn't know them. I had a decent showing the first time around, became their target. There other students wanted a go at me, so they showed up. I didn't know them either. We didn't get to select who we sparred with. Everyone got a piece.

In terms of the self-defense I think it's good to spar with strangers and people of different sizes. If a person only feel comfortable against people he or she knows, then that could turn into a security blanket. Like how you sometimes see people in martial arts competition sparring get nervous or scared about the stranger in front of them.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think it's good to spar with strangers and people of different sizes.

If you train MA, but you (general you) haven't gone through challenge fight when you were young, IMO, your MA life is not complete. Of course there is always some risk involve. But that the exciting part of our life.

When you see a group of wrestlers that wrestled in the park. You ask them if you can wrestle with them. IMO, that's absolutely normal behavior.

In Chinese, it's called "to use your MA skill to make friends".