What makes a Grandmaster better than a 6th degree black belt Master?

[Gerry Seymour]

True, some people try hard and will never be the best, but then in a sense that could be why the instructor promoted him in the first place. I mean I have students who have special learning considerations or difficulties; that doesn't mean they are excluded from being promoted. Nor does it mean the instructor is wrong for promoting them. IMO it is people like this who aren't the most gifted, who aren't the most skilled who actually need what the martial arts can provide.

This is a question I've struggled with. My intention is for the belt to signify a level of competency and understanding. At the same time, I actually have a stated secondary purpose of helping people develop themselves. At what point is it appropriate to use the second statement to amend the intention of the first? I think that's a personal question every instructor should consider and answer to himself/herself.

 

[Mark Lynn]

@marques

Thanks for your well written and explanatory post. I now understand your position and view points better.

@Mark Lynn Thank you for your time writing all that good post. I agree with most of what you say (if not everything). I will not be so detailed as you did, but I will try to answer you.

First topic: We agree that some bad Black Belts degrades the ranks and the status of other Black Belts (and BB may be replaced by other equivalent levels).
But it also degrades the perception of the styles... If I meet more than one high-rank master of the same style and both are weak (in too many senses) I will not trust the style. I know every school is different, but I lost the interest in some styles from consecutive bad experiences.

We agree here. Not sure if I would loose faith in a style per say because of a few high ranked bad instructors but.... I would lose confidence in the governing body or the school that they came from.

Second topic: It was my first trial training. I need to try the school to know (furthermore it is the most convenient one). It will be always an experience that will teach me something (as how to run a business :) ). And they are selling ranks - £15 to £20 the lower ranks, mentioned in class. About 10 people will pay that next week or so. :D Complaining was just a very recent example related to the discussion. And specifically the last class, it was poor technically (wrist grabs). A Black Belt failed and I was grabbing at 15-20% force [SIZE=3](I don't like to embarrass high rank at first class - not polite at all! - but it happened)[/SIZE]. Because the technique was just a 'no technique'... But about 40 people was happy with that fitness class (me too, I need fitness :D ). Kicks instruction was better. And sparring was absent, so I cannot evaluate on that subject (well, I observed the previous class but let's continue...). I have more a couple of training to reinforce my actual opinion on the technical level of that last school.

Not quite sure all of what you mean here but it sounds like you went and tried a class and the techniques that were shown during the class failed and/or you didn't care for. However the other people didn't seem to mind. OK again I don't see the big issue; was the technique for releasing the wrist grab no good? Not applied right? Was it bizarre, like a jumping scissor kick, or thigh lock to the head to try and release your hand from theirs? Or did the instructor clearly not know what the heck to do and was totally lost because you used a little bit of force with your grab? If I understand you right you have a couple of more days of training available before you have to make a choice about training there. And it sounds like you are going to make a choice after they are done. If so great.

[QUOTE="marques, post: 1785944, member: 33691"][USER=1726]
Third topic: Teach on my own. I already did it. In an organisation and out. So I know I can do it, with pleasure. My primordial issue is the marketing. I just like to train. When teaching in an organization I was a bit pushed to that. And independently, I just had some friends interested. So it was training without much marketing. Another issue is my address keep changing and a school needs time to grow... It would not be for profit, but precisely a group of 'few buddies'. The idea is alive (as you can see on my signature). But I have no papers. Is it legal to teach without any stamps and signatures and assurances...? And to finish, just one more detail. I tested my concept (2nd time) inside another academy, where I trained until recently. :) It was a quite informal group, so the instructor(s) were teaching their group(s) and I was guiding some other people (again without marketing). o I forget a bit about 'my own group'.

I have no credentials (papers) to be rank police, in fact. And I am null to judge wrestling, for instance. But I feel sorry for people that are being fooled by rankings and good speaking. It becomes worst when anything is advertised as self-defence, selling illusions that may be dangerous...

Again, I would like just to find a good school and keep there for a long time. Or to have a group where we can spar and exchange knowledge, all people at the same level. I don't see myself running a school...[/QUOTE]

I don't see the need for marketing for a school that is for non- profit, why market you aren't there to make money. If you have a small group than great, if it gets smaller OK, if it grows then it becomes an issue when you out grow your space. I trained for several years at my instructors home dojo; no fees, no advertising, for the longest time no heat and no air conditioning either. His dojo opened to his students and friends in 1982 and it is still going in 2016. Many of the people who I trained with there in the 80's-early 90 are still there beating the crap out of each other several times a week. My instructor and some of the guys are all in their late 50's-60's with 40+ years in the art. It became known as a place to go because the training was hard and the fighting was fun. Plus we didn't wear full gi, nor belts, you just padded up and fought come one come all each night. Marketing was (and still is) only word of mouth and invitation only, we didn't care about rank at the time which is why it took me 7-8 years for 1st, and another 7 years for 2nd etc. etc. We only got promoted when he was forced to promote in a sense. Over Christmas break I took one of my adult students there to fight, and it is even more or a work out now than when I went there. Well they now have heat and AC instead of venting the dryer out there in the dojo like when I went there. NOTE my instructor now teaches commercially, but the home dojo is reserved for all of his students testing for black and still the old guard (so to speak) and those that get an invite through us old timers.

So do you need papers to teach? I don't know about the laws where you are, but here I have no papers to teach, but I teach. I have my dan rankings, my Lakan ranking etc. etc. but am I certified in someway to teach? Not that I know of. Look my instructors place has stayed open because he devoted himself to it and he is good. He found others who like himself didn't want the politics, didn't want the tournament circus etc. etc. He just wanted to be left alone and to pass on his art and teach us how to fight. He's done that and has been very successful at it. I tried it and failed, I do better at the Rec. Center where I teach and I'm happier there, then teaching for free out of my house. If you want to teach and you have some buddies then do so, if it is legal in your country. I wouldn't let some lack of a belt mills stamp of approval stop me.[/user]

 

[marques]

Thanks for your well written and explanatory post. I now understand your position and view points better.

Not quite sure all of what you mean here but it sounds like you went and tried a class and the techniques that were shown during the class failed and/or you didn't care for. However the other people didn't seem to mind. OK again I don't see the big issue; was the technique for releasing the wrist grab no good?

Nice post, as usual. I will comment just a few thinks. I don't want to monopolise and the subject of the topic.

Happy to know you understood me. It was supposed to be a short post and at the end I was already omitting parts, again...

The big issue about the bad techniques is I was doing on my way (that looks simpler and less on steroids, and simply works) to check my level on that. And the issue was my partner liked more 'my way' and gets confused. The Black Belt felts a bit challenged, lost of authority... That is not a good start for me. And simply I will not replace good for bad to make them all happy and graduate yellow belt.

Looking to read your post more often.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Nice post, as usual. I will comment just a few thinks. I don't want to monopolise and the subject of the topic.

Happy to know you understood me. It was supposed to be a short post and at the end I was already omitting parts, again...

The big issue about the bad techniques is I was doing on my way (that looks simpler and less on steroids, and simply works) to check my level on that. And the issue was my partner liked more 'my way' and gets confused. The Black Belt felts a bit challenged, lost of authority... That is not a good start for me. And simply I will not replace good for bad to make them all happy and graduate yellow belt.

Looking to read your post more often.

One consideration for you - perhaps "your way" only works better because you know it better. That may not be the case, but I've had students come in and say "but ____ is easier than that and works better". I then have them give resistance while I demonstrate the technique (or clarify what the technique is meant to work for), and usually it's simply a matter that they are doing the technique wrong because they just learned it and are trying to apply the principles of what they already know. As I said, that may or may not be the case for you.

 

[Mark Lynn]

This is a question I've struggled with. My intention is for the belt to signify a level of competency and understanding. At the same time, I actually have a stated secondary purpose of helping people develop themselves. At what point is it appropriate to use the second statement to amend the intention of the first? I think that's a personal question every instructor should consider and answer to himself/herself.

For me the first thing to come to grips with is what do I feel the black belt (BB) means in my school or for my students. Back in the 80's when I started being a BB meant something. Generally you would be accepted in a school or work out group as a person who knows something of value, there weren't young kids as BBs, Ernie Reyes Jr. being a young BB was an oddity, something you didn't see everyday and especially someone who had a such a high skill level. But today it seems like schools pride themselves on you can produce the youngest BB, or for that matter the youngest master or high ranked BB. It's crazy. So in a sense the BB rank has been diminished on one hand due to this type of an attitude.

Nowadays for several reasons a BB coming into your school isn't such a big issue it's almost like everyone has one, so because you are a BB in some system doesn't mean as much if you are not from that school, style, governing body or that system. That actually helps to free up the high expectations that we had in the 80's and I think ultimately gives the instructor more freedom as to what the BB means in his particular school. So as I set about creating a curriculum for my school I tailored it towards the more SD side of things, while still keeping the "martial art" through forms and basics. So I then set about adding in different drills, techniques, concepts etc. etc. that would tie the kata to basics, to SD etc. etc. and de-emphasized the tournament focused stuff.

So even with students who have learning challenges, I can make allowances for not having the kata exactly right (look wise) if the student is understanding some of the applications of the moves found within the form. I do this by teaching, asking questions of the students etc. etc. to gauge their understanding and I look to see improvement of their techniques as they train. All of this depends of course on the student, their age, skill level, attitudes etc. etc. However I try and set a decent standard that has both physical skill and understanding as part of it.

At my first BB test for my TKD students, my sensei was there and he said "Mark, I your kids did fine. I could pick apart their kata, their sparring was OK, but their SD they got an A on, and that's what is important" That was what I wanted to hear. Because his students do different kata, they also take a lot longer to get to BB, he has better instructors to help off set his teaching etc. etc. so they have in a sense more resources where I'm a one man show. So I wanted to pass onto my students more of the physical SD related material than having perfect kicking techniques or forms.

To bring this back around to the original discussion about what is the difference between a 6th dan and a GM, this is part of the reason I try and stay away from making comparisons based on physical traits or characteristics of the instructors. Simply because I suck at exams, I suck at tournaments, I don't kick like I use to, I don't look like I use to, put me up against some instructors that I know and I would look like the lower rank. Put me up against some of my sensei's younger BB students and have us do a kata and I'd look like the 1st dan.

However put me up against them with a weapon in my hand and that is a different story altogether. On my 1st dan test in Kobudo, I put in a lot of outside time getting ready throughout the whole 2 1/2 - 3 yr program. Weapons were my main interest and focus of study. It comes test time and I had carpal tunnel issues with my hands, I drove 40 something miles in my wife's mail jeep through heavy construction traffic, and I had just completed teaching about 3-4 hours of class prior to leaving for the test. Did I mention that I suck at exams on top of this. Worst test of my life, first time I ever blanked out completely forgetting a kata, dropped my tonfa during a kata cause my hands opened up due to the carpal tunnel, oh and I was one of the highest ranked (there were two of us at 6th dan) testing with a bunch of 4th-1st dans and some brown belts. Talk about humiliation to say the least. Out of everyone there I had the most experience (except for the examiners) with weapons due to my FMA background, all things considered I should have Aced it instead I stood their believing that I was going to fail my first test in 30 years of training. When it came time for one steps with the weapons I didn't care anymore and just let go since I was in my element. I had fun. I figured I was going to fail so I didn't worry or care at that point, it just didn't matter anymore.

When it came time to promote the senior instructors spoke about how at times we have bad tests for different reasons but we earn our rank on the floor, in class and outside of class. They knew me, they understood what happened, they looked beyond the two hours of the test and instead took into consideration the many many hours that I spent outside of class teaching my students the same material and practicing it. So they passed me and used it as a teaching lesson to the rest of the students.

Had someone like, I feel some of the posters here (I don't mean personally but more from the tone of some posts) seen that exam, and seen my rank (even though I don't wear stripes on my belt ) I'm sure I'd be mentioned on some internet forum as a fake. I'm sure some of the people testing who didn't and don't really now me wondered WTH? How could he pass? He forgot a kata completely, his tonfa flew out of his hands during Tonfa Ichi, they might get disgusted and leave the organization or feel I bought the rank (for all of $10.00 for the regular class test fee). Bottom line that was almost 5-6 years or so ago and I'm still there teaching, training and contributing. Where are they? Most of them aren't there. Out of the 100 or so people that went through my class 2010-2012 and the one after 2012-2014, there are maybe 5 from my class, 7-8 from the class after that are continuing to train for 2nd dan.

Whats the difference between a 6th dan and a GM, the 6th dan still trains and the GMs are the ones guiding them.

 

[Balrog]

Every organization has different standards. I'll go with the differences between a 6th dan and say, an 8th dan in a respectable organization...

The difference is typically experience. The 8th dan is probably that 6th dan's teacher, his teacher's teacher, etc. The 8th dan has taught more people, promoted more people, has more higher quality and/or higher ranking students he's taught, etc. He may have written more books and articles, taught more seminars, stuff like that. Things like this hopefully aren't done for his advancement in rank, but for promoting and spreading the art, and for spreading quality knowledge of the art.

Agreed. It;s the influence that you have had in other people's lives. By the time you make it to 6th Degree, you probably have juniors who have gone out and opened their own schools and possibly some of them have juniors who have done the same. It's kinda like a family tree.

ATA has requirements for their titles. First off is the physical training and knowledge of the art. You have to successfully test for the rquired rank. Once you achieve the rank, then they look at other things, such as development by attending training seminars, number of students testing in your tree, etc. If those are met, you are invited to join the next Master's class and you do a year of specialized training toward your Mastership. You are then inducted as a Master the year after you test.

7th Degree Senior Master is pretty much the same thing, with the added requirement that you have to have at least one student who has become a Master. For 8th Degree Chief Master, the requirement is three, and for 9th Degree Grand Master, the requirement is nine.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For me the first thing to come to grips with is what do I feel the black belt (BB) means in my school or for my students. Back in the 80's when I started being a BB meant something. Generally you would be accepted in a school or work out group as a person who knows something of value, there weren't young kids as BBs, Ernie Reyes Jr. being a young BB was an oddity, something you didn't see everyday and especially someone who had a such a high skill level. But today it seems like schools pride themselves on you can produce the youngest BB, or for that matter the youngest master or high ranked BB. It's crazy. So in a sense the BB rank has been diminished on one hand due to this type of an attitude.

Nowadays for several reasons a BB coming into your school isn't such a big issue it's almost like everyone has one, so because you are a BB in some system doesn't mean as much if you are not from that school, style, governing body or that system. That actually helps to free up the high expectations that we had in the 80's and I think ultimately gives the instructor more freedom as to what the BB means in his particular school. So as I set about creating a curriculum for my school I tailored it towards the more SD side of things, while still keeping the "martial art" through forms and basics. So I then set about adding in different drills, techniques, concepts etc. etc. that would tie the kata to basics, to SD etc. etc. and de-emphasized the tournament focused stuff.

So even with students who have learning challenges, I can make allowances for not having the kata exactly right (look wise) if the student is understanding some of the applications of the moves found within the form. I do this by teaching, asking questions of the students etc. etc. to gauge their understanding and I look to see improvement of their techniques as they train. All of this depends of course on the student, their age, skill level, attitudes etc. etc. However I try and set a decent standard that has both physical skill and understanding as part of it.

At my first BB test for my TKD students, my sensei was there and he said "Mark, I your kids did fine. I could pick apart their kata, their sparring was OK, but their SD they got an A on, and that's what is important" That was what I wanted to hear. Because his students do different kata, they also take a lot longer to get to BB, he has better instructors to help off set his teaching etc. etc. so they have in a sense more resources where I'm a one man show. So I wanted to pass onto my students more of the physical SD related material than having perfect kicking techniques or forms.

To bring this back around to the original discussion about what is the difference between a 6th dan and a GM, this is part of the reason I try and stay away from making comparisons based on physical traits or characteristics of the instructors. Simply because I suck at exams, I suck at tournaments, I don't kick like I use to, I don't look like I use to, put me up against some instructors that I know and I would look like the lower rank. Put me up against some of my sensei's younger BB students and have us do a kata and I'd look like the 1st dan.

However put me up against them with a weapon in my hand and that is a different story altogether. On my 1st dan test in Kobudo, I put in a lot of outside time getting ready throughout the whole 2 1/2 - 3 yr program. Weapons were my main interest and focus of study. It comes test time and I had carpal tunnel issues with my hands, I drove 40 something miles in my wife's mail jeep through heavy construction traffic, and I had just completed teaching about 3-4 hours of class prior to leaving for the test. Did I mention that I suck at exams on top of this. Worst test of my life, first time I ever blanked out completely forgetting a kata, dropped my tonfa during a kata cause my hands opened up due to the carpal tunnel, oh and I was one of the highest ranked (there were two of us at 6th dan) testing with a bunch of 4th-1st dans and some brown belts. Talk about humiliation to say the least. Out of everyone there I had the most experience (except for the examiners) with weapons due to my FMA background, all things considered I should have Aced it instead I stood their believing that I was going to fail my first test in 30 years of training. When it came time for one steps with the weapons I didn't care anymore and just let go since I was in my element. I had fun. I figured I was going to fail so I didn't worry or care at that point, it just didn't matter anymore.

When it came time to promote the senior instructors spoke about how at times we have bad tests for different reasons but we earn our rank on the floor, in class and outside of class. They knew me, they understood what happened, they looked beyond the two hours of the test and instead took into consideration the many many hours that I spent outside of class teaching my students the same material and practicing it. So they passed me and used it as a teaching lesson to the rest of the students.

Had someone like, I feel some of the posters here (I don't mean personally but more from the tone of some posts) seen that exam, and seen my rank (even though I don't wear stripes on my belt ) I'm sure I'd be mentioned on some internet forum as a fake. I'm sure some of the people testing who didn't and don't really now me wondered WTH? How could he pass? He forgot a kata completely, his tonfa flew out of his hands during Tonfa Ichi, they might get disgusted and leave the organization or feel I bought the rank (for all of $10.00 for the regular class test fee). Bottom line that was almost 5-6 years or so ago and I'm still there teaching, training and contributing. Where are they? Most of them aren't there. Out of the 100 or so people that went through my class 2010-2012 and the one after 2012-2014, there are maybe 5 from my class, 7-8 from the class after that are continuing to train for 2nd dan.

Whats the difference between a 6th dan and a GM, the 6th dan still trains and the GMs are the ones guiding them.

This is one of the reasons I don't like "one and out" tests. Things can go wrong, and that one thing shouldn't create that big of an issue. There's only one part of the BB test in NGA that's truly pass-fail: the self-defense test. If you can't defend yourself, you have to go back and train some more. Even if you forgot techniques (which would fail your Techniques test), you can come back and test again in 2 weeks. Most mistakes, even at BB level, are just re-checks. You fix the problem and come back a couple of days later. For me, I had to get a chiropractic adjustment to be able to perform the left-side kicks on my test - my pelvis was tilted to one side and my left leg just wouldn't go into position that day.

There are some good arguments for big test days, and folks having to test in front of a crowd. Unfortunately, it can also lead to folks having one bad day that makes them wait many months for their next chance to test.

 

[pgsmith]

Paul, I'm one of those who used to rail against black belt mills. Now, I only care that they are being honest with their students. If they claim to teach effective fighting, but don't, that matters much more to me than whether it takes 6 years or 6 months to get a black belt.

That depends on what is meant by effective fighting. If they claim effective competition fighting, then that will be exposed when they enter competition. If they claim effective self defense or "street" fighting, then there arises the question of how you evaluate that. The vast majority of "effective street fighting" martial arts clubs that I've seen wouldn't last one evening in the neighborhood I grew up in (neither would I anymore). However, that doesn't make them dishonest, just different than your criteria says they should be. Some definitely look better than others to a well trained martial artist, but we all go and train in the fashion that we desire.

I have no credentials (papers) to be rank police, in fact. And I am null to judge wrestling, for instance. But I feel sorry for people that are being fooled by rankings and good speaking. It becomes worst when anything is advertised as self-defence, selling illusions that may be dangerous...

I hear that said a lot by martial artists, that bad fighting techniques can be dangerous. However, nobody has been able to explain to me how this is so. I personally know quite a number of people that have been injured during controlled sparring in martial arts classes (myself included). I only know of a couple of people that have ever had to use their martial arts training in a real self defense situation. With this in mind, please explain to me how learning poor self defense skills can possibly be considered more dangerous than actually learning proper ones?

Sorry, I know I said I would walk away, but I didn't seem to be able. I'll try again.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That depends on what is meant by effective fighting. If they claim effective competition fighting, then that will be exposed when they enter competition. If they claim effective self defense or "street" fighting, then there arises the question of how you evaluate that. The vast majority of "effective street fighting" martial arts clubs that I've seen wouldn't last one evening in the neighborhood I grew up in (neither would I anymore). However, that doesn't make them dishonest, just different than your criteria says they should be. Some definitely look better than others to a well trained martial artist, but we all go and train in the fashion that we desire.

I'm not talking about those folks where there's some room for argument. I've seen schools that claimed to teach effective self-defense, and their senior students couldn't effectively defend against other students. Fight simulations were done with weak, slow attacks, and not a single even remotely effective block (even against the weak attacks) showed up. Counter-strikes were more than 6 inches short of the target (and that was at full extension), and all responses were simply too late (timing) to have had any effect upon the attack.

There's a difference between what we'd consider "iffy" and what is clearly not going to work, at all. I believe they must know what they "teaching" is entirely ineffective (or must have known it when they started, anyway). This kind of thing is only a step away from the folks who teach no-touch KO's as self-defense.

 

[Buka]

Not all GMs are created equal. A couple months ago, Jim Maloney was promoted to Judan (10th) in Uechi-Ryu Karate. I'm sure not many have heard of him. Continuously training for about fifty years, he's an American Indian (Micmac, I think) Certified Law Enforcement trainer in just about everything - firearms, defensive driving, cold water survival, DT, edged weapons, you name it- he's good at it and teaches it.

Went to a Martial training camp summer before last, all kinds of folks there, we had a ball. Jim Maloney taught a lot of classes. He was throwing us around and taking us down like you don't know what. And we were resisting big time, we were not being nice. (Big, young guys getting slammed is always a good time) He wasn't promoted for the sake of promotion, he's just damn good and works his Martial Art inside out. And he's still a beast.

 

[marques]

I hear that said a lot by martial artists, that bad fighting techniques can be dangerous. However, nobody has been able to explain to me how this is so. I personally know quite a number of people that have been injured during controlled sparring in martial arts classes (myself included). I only know of a couple of people that have ever had to use their martial arts training in a real self defense situation. With this in mind, please explain to me how learning poor self defense skills can possibly be considered more dangerous than actually learning proper ones?

Sorry, I know I said I would walk away, but I didn't seem to be able. I'll try again.

'Poor self-defence skills' have no danger if never actually used, as you say. To be rigorous, the problem is not the bad skill, but the overconfidence on those techniques that will just stimulate the aggressor, nothing else.

Continuing on the same example of wrist grabs of my last trial class, the ('my') good technique 'never' stimulates the aggressor (smooth) and in case of failure (which may happen because the aggressor is not a training partner and the environment, speed, surprise, emotions... are not the same) you will keep a quite safe position with a range of alternatives. The bad technique will fail and even in the case of success (everything may happen), it will just irritate the aggressor. And at that moment (success releasing wrists) you are in a quite defenceless position.

And don't worry. You're welcome. And it is free.

We may argue what is 'good technique', 'bad technique', 'defenceless position' and 'safe position' and so on, but from this point, it would be required experiments, footages analysis... and I don't think we will change our opinion just reading and arguing online...

 

[pgsmith]

There's a difference between what we'd consider "iffy" and what is clearly not going to work, at all. I believe they must know what they "teaching" is entirely ineffective (or must have known it when they started, anyway). This kind of thing is only a step away from the folks who teach no-touch KO's as self-defense.

While I agree with you that there definitely are charlatans out there, they seems to fill a need since people pay them money. There are even quite a few people that pay money to the no-touch people. Therefore, there must be a lot of people that desire the snake-oil that these people are selling rather than more effective martial arts. Who are we to say that people shouldn't be able to get what they want. This is the point that I always push to those that complain about "non-effective martial arts".

Marques, you seem to have missed my point. However, if you insist on believing that poor self defense skills are more dangerous than learning effective martial arts techniques, you are welcome to continue being deluded as I will not try to make you understand.

P.S. If I'm in a position to have an aggressor able to grab my wrist and force me to use "techniques", then my self defense skills have already failed and it matters not if the aggressor is more or less irritated. Actual technique is only a very tiny part of any person's self defense skill set.
.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

While I agree with you that there definitely are charlatans out there, they seems to fill a need since people pay them money. There are even quite a few people that pay money to the no-touch people. Therefore, there must be a lot of people that desire the snake-oil that these people are selling rather than more effective martial arts. Who are we to say that people shouldn't be able to get what they want. This is the point that I always push to those that complain about "non-effective martial arts".

Marques, you seem to have missed my point. However, if you insist on believing that poor self defense skills are more dangerous than learning effective martial arts techniques, you are welcome to continue being deluded as I will not try to make you understand.

P.S. If I'm in a position to have an aggressor able to grab my wrist and force me to use "techniques", then my self defense skills have already failed and it matters not if the aggressor is more or less irritated. Actual technique is only a very tiny part of any person's self defense skill set.
.

They _appear_ to fill the need, and that's the problem. If people are going for training to defend (or compete, or anything else), and the instructor knows that what he is teaching is not effective but convinces them it is, he is lying. The people _think_ their need is being met, but it isn't. They didn't choose to buy snake oil; they thought they were buying a legitimate medicine (to maintain the analogy). Just because they pay for it doesn't mean it's useful to them - it means they think it is useful to them. The same can be said of any investment scam - people pay into it because they _think_ it will help them build retirement money. It doesn't, and their need isn't met.

Now, if someone specifically wants to learn no-touch throws (and some instructors appear to truly believe that's what they are teaching), then I have no problem with it. I only have an ethical objection when the instructor knows damned well he's lying to them. If he was truly offering what they want, he wouldn't have to lie.

 

[pgsmith]

They _appear_ to fill the need, and that's the problem. If people are going for training to defend (or compete, or anything else), and the instructor knows that what he is teaching is not effective but convinces them it is, he is lying. The people _think_ their need is being met, but it isn't. They didn't choose to buy snake oil; they thought they were buying a legitimate medicine (to maintain the analogy). Just because they pay for it doesn't mean it's useful to them - it means they think it is useful to them. The same can be said of any investment scam - people pay into it because they _think_ it will help them build retirement money. It doesn't, and their need isn't met.

Now, if someone specifically wants to learn no-touch throws (and some instructors appear to truly believe that's what they are teaching), then I have no problem with it. I only have an ethical objection when the instructor knows damned well he's lying to them. If he was truly offering what they want, he wouldn't have to lie.

I just have a really hard time with saving people from themselves. Where should we draw the line? If people don't bother to look into any history of a martial arts dojo that they attend, should we bother to do their research for them? It used to be extremely difficult to verify claims made by charlatans back before the internet, but it's ridiculously easy today. Why should I care about it when they obviously don't?

Caveat emptor applies to martial arts just as much as it does to anything else in my opinion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I just have a really hard time with saving people from themselves. Where should we draw the line? If people don't bother to look into any history of a martial arts dojo that they attend, should we bother to do their research for them? It used to be extremely difficult to verify claims made by charlatans back before the internet, but it's ridiculously easy today. Why should I care about it when they obviously don't?

Caveat emptor applies to martial arts just as much as it does to anything else in my opinion.

It does, but just like things like investments, people just starting out have too little information to make a good selection.

Mind you, I never said anything about saving people. I said I have a problem with it, and that it does actually affect me (and everyone else in MA). I'm not sure there's a good way to deal with this sort of thing except to be open with information we have when someone asks for help. If someone asks me about a school in my area, I'll be happy to visit it with them to give my insight before they sign up. There are plenty of schools that fit some people's needs better than mine. As long as they are honest about what they're offering, they're probably good for whomever signs up with that knowledge.