what is tkd.......??

[Manny]

What is TKD without jumping/spining kicks? This question keeps hunting me... for many people TKD is a volley of dificult flying/spining/jumping high kicks, for example the korean tigers... when one can't perform that kind of flamboyant kicks are one TKDoing or not?

A few days back my students and I practiced spining kicks and those aimed to the head where a pain in the ...... even for me, I had not did this kicks since a long time, sure I did them them at 18-20 years old but now at 43 my body refuses to perform these kicks.

It was sad for me been a second dan and not acomplished the task, my spining high kicks sucks... and I feel terrible to my students to see me like a instructor who can't kick in a aerial kicking martial art.

My arsenal is basic kicks and hand techs, I try to do my best but sometimes I feel some kind of pressure when I have to perfom more complicated kicks.


manny

 

[dancingalone]

I'd say you're in good company. Guys like Bill Wallace and Chuck Norris no longer practice the jumping, spinning kicks due to injury and age. We all get old and brittle compared to our physical state in our teens and twenties and it is a natural progression to shift to other softer aspects in training.

You might also consider the early TKD period, which I have a fondness for, and realize that aerial kicks were added over time rather than being there from the start. Is the old TKD still TKD? I submit yes.

I know this is a big issue for you, Manny, but you just need to resolve the conflict for yourself. How is your footwork and your patterns? Is your technique as good as it can be on the basics? For myself, I find that working on the non-flashy stuff is actually what allows me to surpass my younger and stronger students, and I do not miss practicing the things I preferred twenty odd years ago. As long as you are capable of teaching your students the things you find important for them to learn, that's really all that matters.

 

[Earl Weiss]

General Choi has set forth the following philosophy and guidelines which will be the cornerstone of Taekwon-Do and by which all serious students of this art are encouraged to live.
1. Be willing to go where the going may be tough and do the things that are worth doing even though they are difficult.
2. Be gentle to the weak and tough to the strong.
3. Be content with what you have in money and position but never in skills.
4. Always finish what you begin, be it large or small.
5. Be a willing teacher to anyone regardless of religion, race or ideology.
6. Never yield to repression or threat in the pursuit of a noble cause.
7. Teach attitude and skill with action rather than words.
8. Always be yourself even though your circumstances may change.
9. Be the eternal teacher who teaches with the body when young, with words when old, and by moral precept even after death.

 

[puunui]

A few days back my students and I practiced spining kicks and those aimed to the head where a pain in the ...... even for me, I had not did this kicks since a long time, sure I did them them at 18-20 years old but now at 43 my body refuses to perform these kicks.

I am older than you and I can do spin hook kick to the head no problem, without stretching or warm up. I think the key is not your age, but the fact that you haven't been practicing the kick. It is hard to train when you spend most of your time teaching. What you need to do is either work out with the class, or in the alternative, find a training partner and train outside of class and work on these things that you feel need work on. No shame in the long break that you took; instead be happy that you found your way back. But you have to train, there is no way around that.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Manny,

First, nice to meet you.

Secondly, in answer to your question, 'What is TKD?' It is a label. The art itself has changed since it began in the mid-50's. Some still practice the 'old school' version but many more practice the modern, Olympic version which is mainly where the refined motor skill acrobatic kicks come in to play. And there are some in-between. I do not know which version you teach/train. Don't get hung up on the label, or what you think others will think of you on your journey in this art. The ability to perform can be changed due to age or injury. That's just a part of life. Perhaps this is a golden opportunity for you to explore the art as it was originally conceived i.e. Karate i.e. a self-defense platform.

Self-defense utilizes gross motor skills and therefore doesn't require much of the things a competition may demand. I don't know if this would work for you in the type of school you run. Many take TKD not as a self-defense art, but rather for a hobby, physical conditioning, health or social aspects etc.

Would it still be TKD without refined, acrobatic kicks? Well, it was originally. And there are those schools that still practice this way. This isnt' a slight against Olympic training schools. Rather pointing out the difference. If the TKD is more centered on self-defense, or solely on self-defense it will look different, have a different feel and utilize a different mind set and skill set. And that is okay. Ultimately, it is up to you what direction you take. I'm just tossing this on the table for you to consider.

Very best of luck and don't be down on yourself

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Manny, tkd without all the flashy stuff is, well, what I do. Our GM's philosophy is that first and foremost you are doing a martial art, you are learning to defend yourself. If you want to do all the flashy jumping around stuff they are more than happy to help you with it but they dont believe in wasting valuable class time perfecting flashy stuff that is of little to no use in defending yourself. Fortunately, Im very flexible and have a lot of time on my hands and I can do all the flashy stuff but if I couldnt I wouldnt care. I train with guys who are very good martial artists who couldnt do spinning, jumping, flashy kicks to save themself. Are those guys doing tkd, of course they are. There are hundreds of techs in tkd, a very small percentage of them are "flashy".

 

[chrispillertkd]

What is TKD without jumping/spining kicks? This question keeps hunting me... for many people TKD is a volley of dificult flying/spining/jumping high kicks, for example the korean tigers... when one can't perform that kind of flamboyant kicks are one TKDoing or not?

Taekwon-Do without flying kicks is ... Taekwon-Do without flying kicks. The body mechanics remain the same, as do the techniques themselves. So, yes, if you're not doing all the acrobatic kicks you're still doing Taekwon-Do. Just not all of it.

To be honest, I don't know how many people equate Taekwon-Do with performances by groups like the Korean Tigers because I don't know how well know they are, at least here in the U.S. You ask a man off the street about what he thinks about the Korean Tigers and I seriously doubt he'll know what you're talking about (though they are quite impressive!).

A few days back my students and I practiced spining kicks and those aimed to the head where a pain in the ...... even for me, I had not did this kicks since a long time, sure I did them them at 18-20 years old but now at 43 my body refuses to perform these kicks.

It was sad for me been a second dan and not acomplished the task, my spining high kicks sucks... and I feel terrible to my students to see me like a instructor who can't kick in a aerial kicking martial art.

We all have techniques on which we can improve. And, frankly, you get to a certain rank and you have so much stuff to cover that hitting it all on a regular basis can be difficult. If you're having difficulty with certain techniques after an extended period of time where you haven't practiced them I'd suggest breaking them into component parts and training those before putting them all together. For example, in one of the ITF patterns you do a dodging flying reverse turning kick. If you haven't done that kick in a while then you might want to work on the standing version of a reverse turning kick first, then move to dodging (which in this case is a jump backward), then add a spin without the kick to the dodge, then add the kick to the dodge. Don't get discouraged, but also don't expect to be doing things exactly like you were 20 years ago if you haven't done them in months.

My arsenal is basic kicks and hand techs, I try to do my best but sometimes I feel some kind of pressure when I have to perfom more complicated kicks.


manny

Don't forget that the more elementary techniques are building blocks for the advanced techniques. There's always something you can apply to the tougher stuff from the stuff you know - and do well - if you think about it. A side piercing kick doesn't change just because you're jumping, or jumping and spinning. Put the time in to get the jump and the spin down pat and it will be easier to add the kick in later.

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

If the TKD is more centered on self-defense, or solely on self-defense it will look different, have a different feel and utilize a different mind set and skill set. And that is okay.

I disagree. I think the skill sets and attitudes developed through competition and modern competition training is easily and more transferable to a self defense situation than doing 1950's Taekwondo.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I disagree. I think the skill sets and attitudes developed through competition and modern competition training is easily and more transferable to a self defense situation than doing 1950's Taekwondo.

Hi Puunui,

With great respect, I'm going to disagree with your statement. I posted this in another section of the board, but as it applies I'd like to repost it here for your consideration;

We need to realize that there are two separate venues of the martial arts. One is centered on sports training and the other is centered on self-defense. There are substantial and dramatic differences and this reply isn't meant to put one above the other or degrade one in preference to another. It is simply to identify two separate animals. I made a more complete set of remarks here http://excoboard.com/martialwarrior/148268/1791679

But for a reader's digest version;

Sport training can be geared towards point sparring or submission contests or towards demonstrations i.e. forms (sometimes set to music or with glow-in-the-dark weapons etc). Although contact/submission matches are physical, they aren't self defense oriented. Here's why;

• A referee is involved for the purpose of enforcing pre-determined rules that were mutually agreed upon by each opponent.
• There are often timed rounds with a short break in-between where a player can catch his/her breath, get a drink of water, get some advise from a trainer.
• The match is in a well lit, dry, level, soft venue.
• The opponent is unarmed.
• The opponent is alone with little chance others will join in.
• Some sort of safety gear is usually involved i.e. cup, mouth piece, gloves etc.
• The opponent usually isn't trying to kill, maim or severely injure you.
• If you've had enough, you can call a time out or tap out or simply quit and walk away.
• The prize is a ribbon, plastic trophy or maybe cash.

Such training could utilize refined motor skills. It could employ a particular strategy i.e. wear the opponent down, put them against a corner and tie them up with a submission etc. Such strategy may involve making the match go long on time.

As a comparison, self-defense training is for situations;

• Where there is no referee enforcing rules. You are likely alone and/or at some sort of a place or position of disadvantage.
• There are no rules.
• There are no breaks, water, advice or anything to assist you.
• The assualt can occur in a parking lot, elevator, side street, your car, your bedroom, in the woods etc. I will likely occur in dim light conditions in any type of weather.
• The attacker may be armed, and should be assumed to be armed.
• The attacker may have friends more than willing to jump in.
• There is no safety gear, but likely a plethoa of person-unfriendly objects like broken glass, traffic, walls etc.
• The attacker is looking to cause as much damage to you as humanly possible in the shortest amount of time possible.
• To quit is to die (or something possibly worse i.e. rape, love one killed etc)
• The goal is survival, the method is whatever it takes.

SD training relies solely on gross motor skills. If it isn't a gross motor skill, it isn't a self defense technique. Under duress you will lose the abilty to operate with refined motor skills. You may have tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, loss of dexterity in your extremities etc. SD training does everything possible to address these situations and deal with them.

SD training deals with the O.O.D.A. loop and flinch response. SD training is often outside the Dojo/Dojang. It should often be in street clothes. Shoes. Dim light conditions. Position of disadvantage. Sloping surfaces, grass, asphault, close quarters etc.

So those are my thoughts. Stay safe.

In a competition the goal is to win. Usually a prize. In SD, the goal is to survive the assualt. Both have a separate mind set and the skill sets are different because in one you have rules and in the other you don't. In one you're under extreme duress which affects refined motor skills as noted above. You need to rely on gross motor skills.

Again, all this is with great respect towards you

 

[puunui]

In a competition the goal is to win. Usually a prize. In SD, the goal is to survive the assualt. Both have a separate mind set and the skill sets are different because in one you have rules and in the other you don't. In one you're under extreme duress which affects refined motor skills as noted above. You need to rely on gross motor skills.

Competition is a highly stressful situation. Through competition, you learn to deal with that stress. My observation is that those who compete or even those who train to compete have better skills and attitudes than those that train for other reasons. If I were in a self defense situation I would rather have one elite competitor with me than three self defense types who hunt around for hidden movements in kata. Competitors are the elite of the Taekwondo world, no different than our special operations troops, who train harder, longer and with much greater intensity than those who do not have to. It is a mistake to underestimate the abilities and attitudes of those who train for high level competition. At every school I have ever been a part of or even observed, the members of the competition team train harder and are physically more skilled than anyone else in the school. My best students, which coincidentally are the best at self defense, all have competition backgrounds. If anything else, the confidence extruded by successful competitors would be enough for a would be attacker to avoid them, thus preventing the confrontation in the first place. Attackers are looking for easy victims, not confident athletic types with the keen eye of a competitor.

 

[Master Dan]

It is sad that so many people believe that TKD is in such a small box this or that. It is everything the air the ground all life. Manny you don't stop till you stop breathing. The promenent pioneers that I have spent my life with have stated TKD is for all people all ages all abilities there is a piece of it for them.

When I was a child I trained as a child when you become a man you train as a man and as an elder you train what is appropiate for your age and health. Flashy kicks and jumping around will get you killed on the street and all MA at its core is for the people not the elite sports arena. Also some kicks just come down to genetics they were born to do and some will never and it is rediculous and neglegent for instructors to force or make any person feel they are unworthy trying to do things which are against thier best health interest period.

My GM impressed that so what you loose a leg you have another you loose an arm you have another adapt or die never stop learn. Don't buy the crap some people are feeding you. A good teacher will adjust everthing based on what the students potential and physical anatomy limitations are if any!!!!!

Don't listen to sports only view its a tiny piece only a few pages in a very large book.

You have so much you can contribute to yourself and others and pain has nothing to do with age it relates to injury or improper training you can either fix it or you need change what you are doing. Train for your personal well being not to please others or imitate some image you have in your mind of another person.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Manny,

First, nice to meet you.

Secondly, in answer to your question, 'What is TKD?' It is a label. The art itself has changed since it began in the mid-50's. Some still practice the 'old school' version but many more practice the modern, Olympic version which is mainly where the refined motor skill acrobatic kicks come in to play. And there are some in-between. I do not know which version you teach/train. Don't get hung up on the label, or what you think others will think of you on your journey in this art. The ability to perform can be changed due to age or injury. That's just a part of life. Perhaps this is a golden opportunity for you to explore the art as it was originally conceived i.e. Karate i.e. a self-defense platform.

Self-defense utilizes gross motor skills and therefore doesn't require much of the things a competition may demand. I don't know if this would work for you in the type of school you run. Many take TKD not as a self-defense art, but rather for a hobby, physical conditioning, health or social aspects etc.

Would it still be TKD without refined, acrobatic kicks? Well, it was originally. And there are those schools that still practice this way. This isnt' a slight against Olympic training schools. Rather pointing out the difference. If the TKD is more centered on self-defense, or solely on self-defense it will look different, have a different feel and utilize a different mind set and skill set. And that is okay. Ultimately, it is up to you what direction you take. I'm just tossing this on the table for you to consider.

Very best of luck and don't be down on yourself

Great post. Taekwondo takes on a very different feel if its done with SD in mind. There is 'sport' tkd which is great and encompasses some really cool techs and is a lot of fun. Then there is the martial side of tkd which is a different beast altogether.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I disagree. I think the skill sets and attitudes developed through competition and modern competition training is easily and more transferable to a self defense situation than doing 1950's Taekwondo.

Completely disagree with this. Recently I saw some footage of my GM way back in the day fighting in "anything goes" fighting comps, mainly against the japanese. The fighting was vicious and even the winner usually ended up with bad injuries (it makes the ufc look like a couple of primary school kids fighting). He fought using "old school 1950's tkd", and no disrespect to modern olympic style, but his style was much more adaptable to a real self defence situation. Applying tkd in a situation where leg kicks, head punches, eye gouges, poking, joint manipulation etc etc are allowed ends up a much more 'realistic' mindset to training, and you fight how you train. Im pretty sure if you went back in time and got a hardcore 1950's tkdist and stuck him in a cage with steven lopez the end result would not be good at all for steven. Saying that fighting in comps is a "highly stressfull situation" which prepares for real SD doesnt make much sense to me. Playing footy, running a business, playing in a band, running a marathon etc are also highly stressful situations but they sure as hell dont prepare you for defending yourself. Sorry to stray off topic, but the point Im making is that there is a lot more to tkd than the flashy stuff and if you train tkd with SD in mind then the flashy stuff becomes much less important.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Competition is a highly stressful situation. Through competition, you learn to deal with that stress. My observation is that those who compete or even those who train to compete have better skills and attitudes than those that train for other reasons. If I were in a self defense situation I would rather have one elite competitor with me than three self defense types who hunt around for hidden movements in kata. Competitors are the elite of the Taekwondo world, no different than our special operations troops, who train harder, longer and with much greater intensity than those who do not have to. It is a mistake to underestimate the abilities and attitudes of those who train for high level competition. At every school I have ever been a part of or even observed, the members of the competition team train harder and are physically more skilled than anyone else in the school. My best students, which coincidentally are the best at self defense, all have competition backgrounds. If anything else, the confidence extruded by successful competitors would be enough for a would be attacker to avoid them, thus preventing the confrontation in the first place. Attackers are looking for easy victims, not confident athletic types with the keen eye of a competitor.

Hi again Puunui This may be a conversation where we have to agree to disagree.

I've taught elite competitors before...but not for competitions. One young woman was brought to me by her father (a fellow Deputy) for SD training. At the time she was around 2nd Dan TKD. She trained under various champions such as Joe Lewis and Bill Wallace. I'm mean she was REALLY good and had so many trophies that her father added another room to the house just for the trophies.

However...

Taking nothing away from her accomplishments in any way, shape or form she was trained exclusively for sport. And again, no disrespect meant to those that train for sport. So take what I'm saying in context please. She had absolutely no SD skills at all. She came into one of my yellow belt classes her first day. I was demonstrating a balance displacement technique using the head for a takedown. Her eyes got as big as dinner plates because the idea of actually having to go hands on was completely foriegn to her (read aggressive combat grappling). Realistic grappling, throws, locks, chokes etc were a standard part of our TKD class.

It wasn't limited to just fellow TKD'ers either. Once one of the local Uechi Ryu guys stopped by (again another fellow Deputy stopping by the school). He was also 2nd Dan. He was impressed at what we taught simply because his Uechi Dojo had no such techniques (it had transitioned to sport training).

Another example is BJJ. No offense to BJJ players intended, but it is mainly taught in this country with the sport venue in mind. I know Royce Gracie and we both taught at our regional L.E.O. training center (S.E.P.S.I.) in St. Petersburg, Fl. He had to completely revamp his BJJ outline for use by Officers because the sport training in worse than useless against a determined, resisting bad guy.

Just a different perspective from someone who is by necessity on the SD side of the road and has seen first hand the various differences between SD and sport.

Although competition can provide some stress, it isn't the same as a lethal force situtation or even many less-than-lethal situations. Sport training doesn't allow for the use of improvised weapons for defensive purposes. It doesnt' teach flinch-response or address the O.O.D.A. loop. It doesn't address tunnel vision, auditory exclusion or other stress-induced factors that occur or can occur in SD situations.

A competitor may have a winning attitude but it isn't quite the same as say 'the bullet proof mind' type of mind set. As my signature line states, 'we don't rise to the occassion...we sink to the level of our training'. Proper training = proper response. But LE and military training has stressed for decades (and the martial arts has forgotten) that what we do in training is what we will do in real life. Be it good or bad.

Again, all due respect intended and in no way a slight against the hobbyist or serious sport competitor.

 

[Manny]

Guys thank you all, I apreciate your words, the class I teach has three 40 plus men, one book keeper (yellow belt) two sales men (green belts), the class covers:basic techs, poomsae and self defense, we don't cover sport-olimpic sparring- We work hard on poomsae and try to be proficient on basics, blocks/parries,stances,hand techs and kicks (not the flashy ones)-

What I like to do is teach good and comon sense tactics for my students so they can defend themselves if need it.

We are trying to do spining kicks because they are cool and certainly can be devastating, yes we are not good but we are trying and we will not quit till decent kicks will come.

I havent seen my sambonim (57) performing tornado kicks or sissor kicks but he is a good teacher.

Any how I will keep in my intent to do decent spining kicks AND will keep improving my regular ones.

Manny

 

[Kong Soo Do]

That's a great attitude Manny and I commend you for it!

I wanted to add, for anyone interested, comments I put on my site as they apply to what has been discussed so far in this thread. I am very passionate about what I do and what I teach because the lives of my students depend on it. I keep a running tab of real world successes they've had in this area, from date-rape prevention to arresting bad guys to handling uncooperative inmates. I feel qualified to speak on this and my passion often comes through, so I urge that nothing is meant to offer offense but rather to provide the best that I can for those I talk with.

With that said, here is my post from my site that covers much of what I've said above with additional commentary:

The following is a result of 36 years in the martial arts, H2H systems, Defensive Tactics, Firearms and Combatives. I hope you the reader find it interesting enough to read to the end. It is my hope that some or many will understand what I’m trying to say.

Definition of MARTIAL ART (SPORT)

: any of several arts of combat and self-defense (as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sport.

Definition of MARTIAL DISCIPLINE

: a field of study of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior

: a rule or system of rules governing conduct or activity

There has always been both a combative and sport element within the martial ‘arts’. The ancient Greeks and Persians had several forms of physical sport such as wrestling and boxing. Generally speaking, there has always been a clear delineation between what was used in the sport venue as opposed to the battle field. What was used by the Gladiators in the coliseum differed from what was used by contestants in ‘Olympic’ games. Looking at the Eastern views (such as Japan), there was a clear delineation between a ‘Jutsu’ (pronounced Jitsu and translated generally as ‘method’) and a ‘Do’ (which translates as a ‘way’) or a ‘Te’ (which translates as ‘hand’). Originally a Jutsu was created and used by the warrior class i.e. Samurai for use in war or law enforcement whereas a ‘Do’ or ‘Te’ was created for civilian use in self-defense situations i.e. defending yourself against a bandit. Again, generally speaking a Jutsu almost always involved extensive use of weapons as the primary focus with empty hand training being secondary. A ‘Do’ or ‘Te’ was almost always the opposite. Empty hand training was emphasized with occasional improvised weapons use (farm implements for example). This was usually due to a national or local ban on civilian owned weaponry. The training was similar in each case from the perspective of wanting the fight to be over as quickly as possible. Therefore the training was more inclined to be lethal first, controlling second but always usable in a serious situation rather than in a sporting context.

As time passed, the clear lines between a Jutsu art and a Do or Te art began to blur. This was a result of cross-training that was brought about by the mixing of ethnic cultures. Training and methodologies was freely passed between China and Okinawa. Additionally, Japan at this time was in a very imperialistic mode and occupied or controlled Okinawa, Korea and parts of China. Therefore the various arts intermingled.

Itosu Ankô was a University Professor in Okinawa circa 1900. Additionally, he was an accomplished master of the Te method known as Shuri Te (named after the city of Shuri in Okinawa). His training directly or indirectly led to the founding of almost all major Ryus (styles) of Karate in Okinawa. It was his desire to incorporate Karate training into the Okinawan school curriculum, not for its combative value but rather as a physical training aid. He took a set of five katas, known as the Pinan Katas, and relabeled the movements interpretations. This had the effect of watering down the combative elements by changing movements to train chokes, breaks, joint destruction, throws etc and replaced them with simple block-punch-kick interpretations. This set up a distinct children’s version and adult’s version of the Pinan katas. In this way, a child could learn the movements, gain the physical benefits of the art but not be trained in the more lethal elements. When the child reached adulthood and was more emotionally prepared to learn the adult version, the movements had already been trained into muscle memory so the original interpretation of the movements could be explained. It is important to note that almost all of these movements were gross motor in nature and application.

One of Itosu Ankô’s most famous students was Gichin Funakoshi who is attributed by most to be the ‘Father of modern Karate’ as well as the founder of Shotokan. He was in large part responsible for Okinawan Te being brought to the attention of the Japanese mainstream. He also brought Karate to the Japanese youth in the same way as was brought to the Okinawan youth. Additionally, he was responsible for the Dan/Kyu system of rank being utilized in Karate (borrowed from Kano Jigoro of Judo), a standardized uniform (the ‘angry white pajamas’) and a formalized curriculum. Koreans of this time period were often considered second class citizens of the Empire. Many did however get the opportunity to learn this Karate and eventually brought it back to their own homeland. Some received formal training and recognition and some picked up training ‘here-and-there’.

In 1945 Japan was defeated in WWII and as a result China and Korea were liberated and the Japanese mainland occupied by the victorious Allies. This was a bad time as can be imagined in Japan with devastation and economic turmoil. One of the ways to make a living was to teach the occupying forces ‘Karate’. By and large though, the type of ‘Karate’ taught (to the ‘invaders’) was more often than not the children’s version as developed by Itosu and Funakoshi. This children’s version was spiced up with lots of flash and fluff and was then carried back to the various countries of the Allies i.e. the West. The Koreans as well had received training (generally speaking) in the children’s version as most weren’t trusted or respected enough to be taught the adult version. And of course they took this and converted it over to the Korean language. Thus Karate became Kong Soo Do, Tang Soo Do and eventually Taekwondo and Aikijujutsu became Hapkido. One will note that many of the original Korean hyung (forms) are Okinawan kata with a name change.

It was during this time that sport practices crept into formal training. It had to be in order to keep the attention of western students. It needs to be stressed that the eastern way of training differed dramatically before the ‘modern’ era. For example, Uechi Kanbun the founder of Uechi Ryu Karate (Pangainoon) practiced the opening movement of Sanchin Kata for hours on end, day after day for months before proceeding to the next set of movements. Teaching this way in western ‘fast-food’ cultures would result in an empty Dojo/Dojang after the first day of training. So class fillers had to be introduced i.e. sparring, kata to music, glow in the dark weapons etc to hold the attention of the new student base. And of course, in order to keep the student/client base happy, colored belts of every imaginable variation including ‘camo’ were introduced…along with the usual belt testing fee attached of course every couple of months or so. It is interesting to note that the original belt colors were white, brown and black. And in Okinawa it was not uncommon to be training alongside practitioners of advanced black belt status who were wearing a white belt simply because they never got around to buying a black one and didn’t think it would improve their training anyway if they did.
And then came competitions as a source of excitement, motivation and of course revenue. Is sport training and competitions necessarily a bad thing for the martial arts? Well, consider these things;

• We often train our students (and particularly children) that ‘Karate is for DEFENSE ONLY’, only to turn around and remind them to bring their gear and entrance fee to the tournament on Saturday. This is teaching a hypocritical position. How can we honestly claim that our training is for defense only and then turn around and throw punches or kicks (or takedowns and throws) for the purpose of getting a ribbon or trophy? The often touted response is, ‘it teaches discipline, balance, good sportsmanship or control’. No, it teaches a contradiction.

• How we train is how we react under stress. We’ve learned this truism on the bodies of dead soldiers and officers. As I often state, ‘We don’t rise to the occasion, we sink to the level of our training’. If we always train in a controlled environment (Dojo/Dojang), if we are utilizing a referee that enforces mutually agreed upon rules of conduct, if we always face a single, unarmed opponent (rather than a determined attacker bent on causing as much damage as humanly possible in as short a time as possible), if we train with flashy, acrobatic refined motor skills movements (that won’t work under duress), if we have time outs and tap outs and water breaks to get a pep talk and advice from our ‘corner’ then we aren’t training for a real life altercation. We are giving ourselves a false sense of security and preparing for failure.

• Real life has one or more determined attackers bent on hurting you. They may very well be armed and not hesitant about using the weapon. It will probably be at a time that is disadvantageous to you and advantageous to him/them. It statistically will be in dim light (do you do any training in dim or no light)? An attack may occur between two parked cars on asphalt, at an ATM, in an elevator or on a stairwell. It might be on a slope or on grass or an oily parking lot (do you always train on dry, level surfaces)? Do you think you’ll be warmed up and stretched out in loose fitting clothing? Does your training require specific types of clothing to be worn or worse, the opponent needs to be in heavy type clothing so the ‘technique’ works? These are all valid real life considerations.

Professional, serious training examines the failures of the real world and corrects the training methodology. It is true that officers have died because they were picking up empty brass and putting them in their pockets during a gun fight rather than reloading their firearm. Why? Because they had an anal-retentive range instructor that wanted a clean gun range so the officers in training picked up there spent brass, tucked them away in their pockets and THEN reloaded the firearm. We don’t train officers that way anymore. Forget the empties and get the damn gun reloaded and get back into the fight. Yet some martial artists think they can train one way in the Dojo/Dojang and then react differently in a real fight. Real world data doesn’t support that conclusion.

It is true that an officer once disarmed a bad guy during a robbery…and then handed the gun back to the bad guy! Why? Because in training he and his fellow officers took turns being the ‘bad guy’. The officer would disarm the ‘bad guy’ (a rubber gun) and then hand it back to him so he could do it again. Under duress…he did the same thing. We no longer train that way. Yet some martial artists think they can train one way in the Dojo/Dojang and then react differently in a real fight. Real world data doesn’t support that conclusion.

It is true that many well-known ‘world champions’ teach or have taught ‘combatives’ to military and police personnel. It is also equally true that they’ve had to modify their curriculum away from what the local MMA club teaches…because what the local MMA club teaches didn’t work on the battle field or in the street. Taking an attacker down and going for a kamora/cross-body mount/figure four leg lock/triangle choke etc doesn’t work very well on armed bad guys and/or bad guys with friends. Being tied up on the ground is ranks at the top of the list of places not to be in a real fight. Yet some martial artists think they can train one way in the Dojo/Dojang and then react differently in a real fight. Real world data doesn’t support that conclusion. They compare their favorite MMA fighter on T.V. with real life. Has anyone ever read in the news about their favorite T.V. martial artist/actor or MMA star getting their clock cleaned in a fight? Or worse, killed. I have.

Back when I had a regular school I had an eye-opener. My friend and fellow Deputy had a daughter that was a 2nd Dan in Olympic Taekwondo. And she was GOOD! She had trophies bigger than her. She had so many they were thinking about adding a room to the house just to house them. Yes, she was THAT good. He brought her to me for some good ole fashion self-defense training. I was demonstrating a balance displacement technique that I normally show yellow belt level students. Her eyes got as big as dinner plates as she nervously stated, ‘we have to actually put our hands on someone’? She was a legite 2nd Dan in her art yet had never once actually gone hands on with someone. It was all flashy kicks, glow-in-the-dark weapons and musical kata. As a 2nd Dan, she had no clue how to defend herself.

About the same time my partner brought in his friend who was a 2nd Dan in an Okinawan Karate style. After watching the yellow belt class he candidly stated that he would be hesitant to put his black belts against any one of our yellow belts. That isn’t a pat-on-the-back boast for me or saying I’m special. But it does demonstrate the difference in training methodology, application and expectation.

Many believe that years of training are necessary in order to defend themselves or ‘master’ the art. On this I’ll call B.S. This is not a correct statement and is not backed up by real world data. For example; the edged weapon defense developed by Darren Laur and promoted by Peter Boatman is very probably the best system of edged weapon defense, bar none, in the world. It is certainly the best documented in actual LEO edged weapon encounters.

Fact: Prior to the implementation of this program, officers in Great Britain were injured in 87% of the edged weapon encounters.

Fact: After implementation, the injury rate dropped to 17%.

Fact: This program is taught to line officers in a single 8 hour course and focuses on gross motor skill responses.

Fact: Refresher training was annually but increased to 18 months since it was demonstrated to be effective long after the initial training and was retained in long term memory.

Fact: My own agency (and those that use the system) have refresher training from 1-2 years since it has been demonstrated to be effective long after initial training which was less than 8 hours in duration.
Another example would be WWII combatives as developed by Fairbairn and O'Neill and taught to the FSSF, SAS and other special forces units. The training was anywhere from 8-24 hours. Based on gross motor skills. This system was effective in personal H2H combat and the results were usually lethal. According to a CIA report, WWII combatives as taught was found to be retained in long term memory and usable DECADES after the initial training with a high rate of success.

Long hours of training may make one feel good about what they train in...but it isn't necessary for self-defense IF what you train in is actually geared towards self-defense. As mentioned, it is gross motor skills that are easily learned and retained in long term memory. Knowledge of the O.O.D.A. loop, flinch response and adrenaline induced factors. Most 'modern' martial arts don't train in these things and don't even know what they are.

Perhaps we need a new term? The term ‘martial art’ doesn’t effectively mean what it should mean. It is too broad of a brush stroke. Perhaps ‘martial art’ should mean ‘martial sport’ and a new term like ‘martial discipline’ be used to denote a martial system focusing strictly and only on self-defense. That way we have two unique venues to offer people. For those that ‘do karate’ on Mondays and Thursday (and bowling on Tuesdays and Fridays) who want to ‘get in shape’ and/or win a trophy while learning really cool, flashy ‘moves’ while paying gobs of money for pretty belts can go the martial art/sport route. While those that prefer to train for personal protection using proven gross motor skills that are retainable in long term memory under a variety of settings can go the martial discipline/system route.

Am I being unnecessarily harsh in my comments? Well….no, I don’t think so. It isn’t going to make me popular, but then that really isn’t my goal. My goal is to reach someone and give them a light-bulb moment…a reality check if you will which results in their training improving to a whole new level.

Remember, we NEVER quit and we ALWAYS win. Stay safe and feel free to comment or question.

Again, offered for those interested in the self-defense aspects of the art of Taekwondo (or any other art for that matter). Stay safe.

 

[andyjeffries]

Guys thank you all, I apreciate your words, the class I teach has three 40 plus men, one book keeper (yellow belt) two sales men (green belts), the class covers:basic techs, poomsae and self defense, we don't cover sport-olimpic sparring- We work hard on poomsae and try to be proficient on basics, blocks/parries,stances,hand techs and kicks (not the flashy ones)

Now that brings a question to mind. You say you don't do Sport Olympic sparring... do you do any sparring?

I would say sparring (be it Olympic style or otherwise) is a very core/key component of Taekwondo. It's very important for confidence building, teaching the body/mind to cope with adrenaline dumps and getting people used to taking knocks (amongst other things).

While I think MMA would be more effective for self-defence than Taekwondo, any martial art practiced without sparring would be the lowest on the scale IMHO.

 

[StudentCarl]

We are trying to do spining kicks because they are cool and certainly can be devastating, yes we are not good but we are trying and we will not quit till decent kicks will come.
Manny

Hi Manny,
At the most basic, turning and spinning kicks help you practice keeping balance and striking with power to your rear. Whether you strike with hand or foot is just your choice of weapon, but first you must control your body. Something like spin backfist or turn back kick to groin would be useful vs. multiple opponent, and that (having to fight more than one person at once) does happen for real.

Of course it is preferable not to have to turn, but there is nothing "preferable" in a fight, just that you must survive/win. It's good to know you keep working, sir.

 

[StudentCarl]

I would say sparring (be it Olympic style or otherwise) is a very core/key component of Taekwondo. It's very important for confidence building, teaching the body/mind to cope with adrenaline dumps and getting people used to taking knocks (amongst other things).

Absolutely spot on. Also, the higher level of conditioning better prepares your body. At my school, those who spar competitively are at a much higher level of speed, balance, and power than those who just train in class.

Further, I think that the evolution of Taekwondo sparring from the 1960s is an important trait that distinguishes it from other striking arts.

Carl

 

[Earl Weiss]

>>• We often train our students (and particularly children) that ‘Karate is for DEFENSE ONLY’, only to turn around and remind them to bring their gear and entrance fee to the tournament on Saturday. This is teaching a hypocritical position. How can we honestly claim that our training is for defense only and then turn around and throw punches or kicks (or takedowns and throws) for the purpose of getting a ribbon or trophy? The often touted response is, ‘it teaches discipline, balance, good sportsmanship or control’. No, it teaches a contradiction. <<

It's only a contradiction if you wrongly teach it this way. Saying something is "For Defense Only" is far different thamn saying something is to be used for Self Defense. A gun can be used for self defense, but is not viewed as "Defensive" .

so, perhaps it is quibbling over semantics but saying that something is to be used for self defensicve does not make it "Defensive' nor should it be taught as such.