What Is Self Defense?

[elwin]

Mmmm! Maybe not. Urban myth unfortunately.

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=511

I know, I know! LOL! Just a figure of expression, mainly to instill with what force someone should attempt to strike.

Although, some do believe it, just as some people still believe that an ostrich buries his head in the ground in order to conceal him from danger.

 

[K-man]

I know, I know! LOL! Just a figure of expression, mainly to instill with what force someone should attempt to strike.

Although, some do believe it, just as some people still believe that an ostrich buries his head in the ground in order to conceal him from danger.

It doesn't lend credibility to your post though. :asian:

 

[elwin]

It doesn't lend credibility to your post though. :asian:

I'll make sure to be more "technically correct" next time! The technique stays the same though. The nose will be crushed and your attacker left in agony.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I hear you loud and clear! But tell me this, when you find yourself in a situation when a fight for your life is the only option, what are you thinking about at that moment when it is ACTUALLY HAPPENING RIGHT NOW? All other things to avoid violence has'nt worked, the fight is upon you. How do you "end the threat" without "hurting" your attacker? What is your immediate goal, not afterwards when you have to explain yourself, but then and there? Then and there ending the threat MEANS hurting your attacker, injuring him so he is unable to pursue you further.

No, I'm sorry, your mentality is not what I would consider correct. I never said you can end the attack without hurting your attacker. Someone is going to get hurt, no doubt, and you don't want it to be you. But the point of your self-defense is and should be to defend yourself, not to hurt your attacker. If your attacker gets hurt, so be it; they brought it on themselves. Do you understand the difference here? Yeah, he's going to get hurt. Yeah, you're going to do the hurting to him. But your goal, the point that is most important, is NOT that you are going to hurt him - it's that you're going to end the threat to your life and health. That the guy is going to get hurt is totally beside the point. It literally doesn't matter. As long as the attack ends and you survive, it doesn't matter if the guy ends up on his butt on the ground on in the hospital or in the morgue. So the point is not to hurt him - the point is to defend you. What happens to him doesn't matter.

Sorry, that is just the way it is. If you haven't been in such a situation, or even just talked to various perpetrators causing such attacks, as well as survivors, I totally understand where you are coming from. But at that moment, during those split seconds that feels like an eternity, I don't give a rats bum about terminology. At that moment I don't dare think about police and any investigation, what I am going to tell them and how I'm going to tell it to them.

I'm 50 years old and spent more than a decade in military and civilian law enforcement. I'm not a martial arts expert, but I'm getting a little tired of people on MT insinuating that I've never been in a fight or don't know how to defend myself. I'd wager I know one or two things, young man. I've got underwear older than you.

Vengeance has nothing to do with it. With all due respect,why would I have any vengeance? It is ALL about surviving and nothing else. We are talking about only the worst case here, the only time when physical self defense is required. It order to survive it, in order to effectively defend yourself, you have to hurt your attacker, period. Yes, end the thread by in reality hurting your attacker. That is the only thing you need to focus on at that moment, NOTHING else!

You're the one who brought it up:

"I will make sure that the person responsible for this disruption in my life, wish he never tried taking me on. He will be hurt!"
​

That's vengeance.

You don't think about explaining yourself BEFORE the attack. You did'nt make the choice to be in such a predicament. You did everything in your power to avoid such a situation. You do act in self defense, you are not lying about it. Afterwards you will explain that you only acted in self defense and that their was no other way out. But at that moment when everything is happening, terminology should be the furthers thing from your mind.

A) Part of self-defense is knowing more than just how to defend yourself beforehand. That means knowing the local laws on self-defense, what you can and can't do, what you should and should not say. Long before any confrontation.

B) I agree that when you're defending yourself, that's all you should concern yourself with.

C) But when the fight is over, if you've survived, you're going to have to deal with the aftermath, which may include police, and depending on the circumstances and what you choose to say to the police, a judge or a jury. If you want to choose to be stupid about it, fine, that's your business. I'm suggesting some things that might help you, including not using terms like "make him wish he never tried taking me on." Those are stupid words and they'll get you into trouble. Don't believe me? Fine, try them sometime on a guy with a badge and a gun. Good luck.

 

[MJS]

Not to seem ungrateful for your kind words, but that's not exactly what I meant.

Eh....I tried.

I'm not big on threat-matching as a civilian engaged in legitimate self-defense. Law enforcement officers are supposed to know how, when, and most importantly, be able to escalate force and use only 'appropriate' force to end a violent encounter. They're trained for that, and they're armed with a variety of non-lethal and lethal weapons. They're expected to only use that force necessary to effect an arrest or to defend themselves.

As a civilian (nowadays), I do not carry a variety of weapons. Nor am I (depending on the state in the USA) expected to be able to match force with an assailant. I am permitted (again, generally speaking) to defend myself from violence or immediate danger of violence, and that's as far as I define it.

In other words, as an example, if a person raises up their arm to strike me and I am reasonably in fear of my life or that I face imminent serious bodily injury, I'll do whatever seems appropriate to me at the time. Eye gouge? Sure. Kick in the pelvic bone? If I can manage it. Draw my pocket knife and open the guy up from belly to brisket? Sure, again if I can manage it. I'll hit him with a brick or a rock or I'll charge him, knock him down, and bash his head against the pavement until he stops moving. Sure, why not? The point is not what I'm doing, the point is why I am doing it. I am not engaging in tit-for-tat. I'm not engaging in revenge-seeking. I'm not trying to teach the guy a lesson. I'm trying to end the threat. I'll stop when the threat is ended - in my opinion. It might take awhile.

That said, there are states in the USA which apply the term 'appropriate force' to self-defense laws, and people have to be aware of the law where they live.

But my point is that far less important than what you do is what you say about it. If you reasonably fear death, you are entitled to defend yourself. The courts are very lenient about what a reasonable defense is when we're talking about a law-abiding citizen defending themselves against a thug who attacks them. But a law-abiding citizen stops looking like a law-abiding citizen in the eyes of the courts when they begin talking about how they exacted revenge or intentionally inflicted some serious injury when they COULD have done less damage and still stopped the attack. For instance, a person is forced to defend their life against a thug, and could (because of their training) stop the fight with a throw and an arm-bar lock. But they instead choose to take out the knee, permanently damaging the thug who attacked them. If they tell the police that, they can expect to be arrested. If they testify that way in court, they may find themselves working the rest of their lives to pay off the civil judgment against them when they're sued and lose. I'm not saying that they should use the gentlest method to stop the bad guy! I'm saying they should defend themselves and THAT is what they should say they did. Nothing more. How and why and what was going through their mind at the time is their business, so shut their mouths and state the facts - they were scared, they were in danger, they defended themselves. AND STOP TALKING. That's all.

Oh I agree with you. I wasnt suggesting either, that we should take on the role of Charles Bronson. My point, was simply, while we're more than free to do whatever we'd like, we need to also be willing to accept the consequences for our actions. I simply said that we should be able to alter our defense accordingly, in an effort to hopefully avoid getting ourselves into a sticky situation.

 

[elwin]

No, I'm sorry, your mentality is not what I would consider correct. I never said you can end the attack without hurting your attacker. Someone is going to get hurt, no doubt, and you don't want it to be you. But the point of your self-defense is and should be to defend yourself, not to hurt your attacker. If your attacker gets hurt, so be it; they brought it on themselves. Do you understand the difference here? Yeah, he's going to get hurt. Yeah, you're going to do the hurting to him. But your goal, the point that is most important, is NOT that you are going to hurt him - it's that you're going to end the threat to your life and health. That the guy is going to get hurt is totally beside the point. It literally doesn't matter. As long as the attack ends and you survive, it doesn't matter if the guy ends up on his butt on the ground on in the hospital or in the morgue. So the point is not to hurt him - the point is to defend you. What happens to him doesn't matter.

For can go forward and backwards with this, the point still stands,defending yourself means hurting your attacker, period. If you are going to focus your mind on defending, you are screwed in a real life threat. You end the threat by hurting your attacker, that is what you need to focus on and nothing else. Your mindset "in that moment" can mean the difference between life or death. You are too focused on what happens afterwards when there might not even be an afterwards. The only thing that matters is there and then.


[/quote] I'm 50 years old and spent more than a decade in military and civilian law enforcement. I'm not a martial arts expert, but I'm getting a little tired of people on MT insinuating that I've never been in a fight or don't know how to defend myself. I'd wager I know one or two things, young man. I've got underwear older than you.[/quote]

No disrespect meant, I promise. I don't doubt your ability to defend yourself either. It's just that, I've been in fights so horrific that you won't believe me if I told you about every single detail of it. I DO have a history with violence before I changed my life around and it is something I am not proud of, believe me. I still know people, although not friends anymore, who still acts on the wrong side of violence. Although that life is in the past and I like to keep it that way, I did learn a great deal first hand. I did'nt learn what I knew back then in a dojo or police academy, I learned it on the street. It is nothing to brag about, but the fact is, I KNOW HOW IT GOES DOWN.

[/quote]You're the one who brought it up:

"I will make sure that the person responsible for this disruption in my life, wish he never tried taking me on. He will be hurt!"
​

That's vengeance.[/quote]

Disruption meaning- He want's to kill me!!! My take on vengeance is, someone did something to me, now I'm going to get him back. That's not what's happening. I am going to try and hurt him, before he has a chance to hurt me! It is definitely, absolutely still self defense.

[/quote] A) Part of self-defense is knowing more than just how to defend yourself beforehand. That means knowing the local laws on self-defense, what you can and can't do, what you should and should not say. Long before any confrontation. [/quote]

I agree! That should be part of your protection training and preparation.

[/quote]B) I agree that when you're defending yourself, that's all you should concern yourself with.[/quote]

THIS IS ALL I'VE BEEN SAYING THE ENTIRE TIME!

[/quote] C) But when the fight is over, if you've survived, you're going to have to deal with the aftermath, which may include police, and depending on the circumstances and what you choose to say to the police, a judge or a jury. If you want to choose to be stupid about it, fine, that's your business. I'm suggesting some things that might help you, including not using terms like "make him wish he never tried taking me on." Those are stupid words and they'll get you into trouble. Don't believe me? Fine, try them sometime on a guy with a badge and a gun. Good luck.[/quote]

This is when you start to think about what you are going to say. NOT DURING THE FIGHT!

 

[Supra Vijai]

This is when you start to think about what you are going to say. NOT DURING THE FIGHT!

Not during but I'd say before when training/practicing in class and planning for safety. I know under adrenaline I can't think coherently enough to tie my shoes let alone come up with a cover sotry or defence for my actions - even worse if I don't actually know what I did cause my brain shut down and I as on auto pilot

 

[Danny T]

Self-defense is the protection of one's self, family or property from injury or the immediate risk of unlawful injury; the justification for an act which may otherwise constitute an offense on the ground that the person who committed it reasonably believed that the act was necessary to protect self or property.

This could be an act as simple as being aware of potential actions against ones self or property and taking the necessary actions to prevent it. Ie. locking the doors to one’s home or it may be the action of physically fighting against the offender. Self-defense is what one does mentally and in action to prevent injury. Fighting can be a form of self-defense but in my thoughts is the last and lowest level. Awareness and proper preparation is the most important.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have my own views, which I'll share shortly, but I wanted to put this question out for discussion, as I'm sure views will differ, which is fine of course.

So, what do you feel it is? Is it the techniques in your art? Is it the avoidance aspect?

Self defense is essentially responding to a threat directed against one's self. Techniques are just techniques. You may apply them to defend yourself against an aggressor, but the techniques themselves are not self defense.

As for the avoidance aspect, I think that it is vital. Most people focus on defending themselves once they are attacked, but not so much on dealing with what leads up to the attack. There is a saying that the best defense is a good offense. I say that the best defense is to prevent the attack from occurring in the first place (can't be done 100% of the time, I know, which is why we have the physical tools).

I think that for most males between sixteen and thirty, the best tool of self defense is to ditch the machismo. The need to be perceived by one's self and by others as 'tough' is the undoing of a good many people. Frankly, I'm lucky that none of that behavior on my part ever caused things to go south when I was young. I had a hot temper and a need to prove myself. Thankfully, I managed to survive it, tempered my temper, and found healthy ways to prove myself, eventually outgrowing the need to do so.

The American need to advertise how wealthy we are, or to be perceived as wealthier than we actually are, is another thing that needs to go. Don't go out of your way to let everyone know that you've arrived; some of those whom you inform may wish to partake of your worldly riches.

And for God's sake, don't try to pretend that you're wealthier than you are. For one, it's bad for your wallet; if you really want to be wealthy, live within your means and save your money. Secondly, don't make yourself a target by going out of your way to appear wealthy.

Finally, stay aware of your surroundings and don't go stupid places. This includes the obvious choices of bad parts of town, rough clubs, and crack houses, but it also includes places that are otherwise okay but where certain types of crimes are regularly committed. Jogging trails in wooded areas and parks at night, for example. Some parks in otherwise nice areas are used by predators. If you fit the victim type, don't go jogging alone.

Ultimately, not only do you want to get home, but you want to live all of your years and have a good quality of life for the duration of those years. A martial art can help you defend yourself if things get beyond the avoidance and deescalation stages, but more importantly, a regularly practiced MA can 'defend' you from the sedentary lifestyle that contributes to all kinds of health problems.

Daniel

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The first words a police officer hears when he interviews a person involved in a physical altercation or brawl is this, "I was minding my own business when suddenly..."

The plain truth is, most of the time, that's the opposite of the truth. It does happen, yes. But a shockingly low percentage of the time. People get into bar brawls - generally because someone knocked something over, backed into somebody, said something insulting, or some other petty reason, and neither party could back down and walk away and it escalated.

People get into fights over parking spots and sale merchandise at stores. They fight over personal insults and hurtful words. They fight over not holding the door open for each other, or cutting in line at an ATM machine. They fight over sports.

The young ones also tend to walk around with chips on their shoulders, thinking they're both immortal and unbeatable. They feel compelled not just to end a risky confrontation, but to 'teach the other guy a lesson he won't soon forget' as if that was part of the business of self-defense.

Very seldom are people who are truly minding their own business caught in a situation in which they must defend themselves with violence. Of course it happens, that's part of the reason many of us train in martial arts or choose go about armed. Percentage-wise, the risk to the individual is low, but if you are the one it happens to, the risk is 100%.

For those few, all of the statements made by others are true; keep a level head, know where you are, consider all your options beside duking it out and try to choose the best one, stay out of risky areas and situations if you can, or if you choose to go into them, at least know the risks and be more alert.