What in truth is truth?

Bob Hubbard

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What in truth is truth?

People swear to tell the truth. They swear on holy books, they swear to god, they swear period.
But, is the swearing the truth, or is there truth in swearing?

People point fingers and say "he is not telling the truth, I am."
Everyone has a truth. But is their truth, true?
Where is the true truth in todays truth?
Too often, there is little true in what is sworn to be true, and believed to be true.

Reality truth is the truth that just is. You can not change it, no matter how hard you may wish for it to be different.

What is true for you, may in fact and in reality not true.

Fingers are pointed, and "he is a fraud" proclaimed. But is that your truth, or true truth?

In the 1800's the black man was seen as inferior. That was "Truth".
George Washington Carver however lived under a different truth, one that did not say "inferior".
In the 1900's the black man was seen as second class. That was "Truth".
Martin Luthor King Jr however saw a different truth.
In 1940 the German Government saw the Jew as inferior, as less than human, as useless.
Reality truth however was quite different.

Today is no different. We each believe what we believe because we believe it to be so.
That is our truth.
My truth is different from your truth.
Just because you believe it to be so, does not make it so in reality.
That is not truth.
That is fantasy, an Illusion.

Reality truth is a truth we cannot escape, no matter how deep we bury our head in the sand, stick fingers in ear and sing.

Reality Truth is pure truth. Our own truths are rarely pure truth, rarely full reality truth.

In the end, which truth is truly true truth?
 

terryl965

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I need a shot of whiskey with thirty beers to understand what Bob is saying My head hurts.
 

Xue Sheng

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From my years in security, particularly the hospital with the mental health and detox unit I have come to the conclusion that there are generally 3 sides to every story. The truth from person 1 that is the truth from their perspective. The truth from person 2 that is also the truth from their perspective and the actual truth that is somewhere in between.

And then of course their is Kierkegaard and Truth is subjective
 

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Pontius Pilate asked the same question once. It is a query worthy of college sophomores in philosophy. After that, it becomes just cynical relativism.
 

exile

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Pontius Pilate asked the same question once. It is a query worthy of college sophomores in philosophy. After that, it becomes just cynical relativism.

I have the same kind of sense... truth may be difficult to get at; there may be aspects of it that one person's point of views places at the center which someone else sees as peripheral, and so on. But if we can no longer agree that there is a fact of the matter, that some things happened and others didn't, then we're well on the road to a world in which the existence Auschwitz, slavery and torture are merely matters of opinion. The vast observed regularities of nature, operating at enormous scales and offering multiple clues that independent lines of evidence converge on (think of all the ways, for example, in which general relativity has been confirmed in every observational test that can be devised for it, from the advancing perihelion of Mercury to the existence of black holes to gravitational lensing) entail properties of the universe which necessarily existed before there were any human beings to be conscious of them. If so, it's hard to see how the fact that matter causes space to curve in certain specific ways can be dependent on human consciousness (since it's only as a result of the byproducts of that curvature that we got a planet Earth to lead, several billions of years later, to the formation of human intelligences capable of unravelling what happened...). And if you grant that, then there has to be something external to our own consciousnesses which yields the things we observe. In which case, you are pretty much committed to there being a certain Way That Things Are, even though it may be exceedingly difficult to figure them out as time goes on...
 

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For earlier examples try reading the writings of Socrates on the relativistic viewpoints of Protagoras.
 

Xue Sheng

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Here ya go Bob :D

Many Myths are based on truth.

Is truth not truth for all?

You say you are lying. But if everything you say is a lie, then you are telling the truth. You cannot tell the truth because everything you say is a lie. You lie, you tell the truth ... but you cannot, for you lie.
 

jks9199

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The truth is that which is not false; that which did happen.

Anything that is false is, therefore, not truth, and did not happen.

And, of course, a dog is wise, for it knows what is good and what is bad, and who is a good and who is bad.

But, putting all the silly games aside, there is truth. There are things that are verifiable and true. I'm not sure that there is <cue the dramatic, deep voice> TRUTH... though I believe there is an ultimate Truth. But that's getting into religion.
 

elder999

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Well, I dunno. As a scientist, I know that there's a difference between "fact" (or reality?) and "truth." I use what's called the "68 degree rule" to demonstrate this.

My wife likes it cool, while I like it warm. Our house is at 68 degrees fahrenheit. I say,"It's cold," and turn up the thermostat; she says, "It's hot," and turns it back down. I point at my goose-bumps, she points to her sweat, and I get to go out to the shop, and keep it as warm as I like!

Fact: the temperature is 68 degrees.
Truth:I'm cold.
Truth: She's hot.

One fact, two truths-neither less or more true than the other...
 

cstanley

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What kind of "truth?" There is a priori mathematical truth, as in: 2+2=4.

There is logical truth: If A=B, and B=C, then A=C.

Truths of Physics: A and B as distinct entities cannot occupy the exact same space at the same time.

Then, there are all kinds of a posteriori truths.

Religious truths are based upon revealed knowledge and are not subject to scientific testing.

Historical truth depends upon witnesses but is attestable by the subsequent historical developments.

There are many scientific theories that are accepted as "truth" which are not actually true "a priori." 2+2=4 in any conceivable universe. The sun may not come up tomorrow, however.
 

exile

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What kind of "truth?" There is a priori mathematical truth, as in: 2+2=4.

There is logical truth: If A=B, and B=C, then A=C.

Truths of Physics: A and B as distinct entities cannot occupy the exact same space at the same time.

Then, there are all kinds of a posteriori truths.

Religious truths are based upon revealed knowledge and are not subject to scientific testing.

Historical truth depends upon witnesses but is attestable by the subsequent historical developments.

There are many scientific theories that are accepted as "truth" which are not actually true "a priori." 2+2=4 in any conceivable universe. The sun may not come up tomorrow, however.

That's why logicians always define truth with respect to a model, usually some algebraic structure (assumed to be in correspondence with the world in a particular way) such that if the logical formula in question yields a 1 under the operations corresponding to the way the formula is assembled, the result is true, and if it's 0, the result is false. Makes it much easier to talk about truth, both of the necessary and the contingent kind, when you do things that way! :D
 

cstanley

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That's why logicians always define truth with respect to a model, usually some algebraic structure (assumed to be in correspondence with the world in a particular way) such that if the logical formula in question yields a 1 under the operations corresponding to the way the formula is assembled, the result is true, and if it's 0, the result is false. Makes it much easier to talk about truth, both of the necessary and the contingent kind, when you do things that way! :D

There is a great anecdote regarding the British Pragmatist G. E. Moore. A student once asked him, with respect to the Resurrection of Christ, "But, Sir, what if you had been standing there and had seen the stone roll away and Jesus walk out?"
Moore replied, "I would have taken out my pad and pen, made careful notes, then waited to see if it happened again.":lfao:
 

terryl965

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Truth to me is like Love once you cross that line, everything is the truth.
 

exile

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There is a great anecdote regarding the British Pragmatist G. E. Moore. A student once asked him, with respect to the Resurrection of Christ, "But, Sir, what if you had been standing there and had seen the stone roll away and Jesus walk out?"
Moore replied, "I would have taken out my pad and pen, made careful notes, then waited to see if it happened again.":lfao:

:roflmao:

That is so Moore!
 

Xue Sheng

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And I said gentlemen, and I use that world loosely
I will testify for you, Im a gun for hire,Im a saint, Im a liar
Because there are no facts, there is no truth
Just data to be manipulated
I can get you any result you like
Whats it worth to you?
Because there is no wrong, there is no right
And I sleep very well at night
No shame, no solution, no remorse, no retribution
Just people selling t-shirts
Just opportunity to participate in the pathetic little circus
And winning, winning, winning

And that is so Don Henley
 

cstanley

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And I said gentlemen, and I use that world loosely
I will testify for you, Im a gun for hire,Im a saint, Im a liar
Because there are no facts, there is no truth
Just data to be manipulated
I can get you any result you like
Whats it worth to you?
Because there is no wrong, there is no right
And I sleep very well at night
No shame, no solution, no remorse, no retribution
Just people selling t-shirts
Just opportunity to participate in the pathetic little circus
And winning, winning, winning

And that is so Don Henley

Sounds like a lot of self-indulgent nonsense to me.
 

Kacey

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'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,' - that is all ye know on earth, and all ye need to know." John Keats

OK, now that I've gotten that out of the way... truth - especially truth in anything even the slightest bit subjective (although there are some interesting sticking points in math and science as well) is, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.

For example - to me, my dog is the most handsome, cuddly, happy and all around best dog in the world. That is my truth. Others, who own (or are owned by) different dogs will have a different truth. Other issues have, likewise, multiple truths, depending on the experiences of the person stating them.
 

punisher73

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I have read through alot of the posts and there are many that seem to be saying "my truth". Not to single out or pick on Kacey, but that was the last post.

Kacey wrote:
For example - to me, my dog is the most handsome, cuddly, happy and all around best dog in the world. That is my truth. Others, who own (or are owned by) different dogs will have a different truth. Other issues have, likewise, multiple truths, depending on the experiences of the person stating them.

I would not call that "truth", I would call that perception. Many people PERCIEVE things which they believe are correct, but I would not call them "truth".

It's like people "witnessing" a crime or an accident. You talk to five different people and they will all give their version and swear that it is correct. And they are all "right" based on their perception of the event. But, that does not change the "what is" of the even, that being what REALLY happened outside of human notions and perceptions.

Even in science, math, etc. We evaluate those things and call them correct, but it is still based on our understanding of how things work, and as our "tools of perception" get better we may change our understanding of the events looked at. But, that does not change the event itself.

So I don't think that we can truly "KNOW" the "TRUTH", but that does not mean we do not know it exists or that we can't see glimpses of it.
 
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