What if Wing Chun remained a concept...

[SaulGoodman]

Remember: you are pretending to be a wing chun guy on this forum

You really are a sad little man aren't you, did you not get much attention when you were a child or something?

 

[SaulGoodman]

Fine motor skills can be turned into muscle memory and that is large part of over coming this issue. The problem is they degrade quickly without constant reinforcement. If this was not the case modern armies would collapse in battle because firearm use is all about fine motor skills.

This is why training your art under "battlefield conditions" is so important.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Fine motor skills can be turned into muscle memory and that is large part of over coming this issue. The problem is they degrade quickly without constant reinforcement. If this was not the case modern armies would collapse in battle because firearm use is all about fine motor skills.

Muscle memory is like language. The less you use it the more it degrades. It may not completely disappear but it definitely degrades

I think of all the things I did as a teenager, roller skate, roller blade, skateboard, BMX tricks on my bike, playing pool, playing ping pong, playing baseball, etc. I can't do half of these things now simply because I stop doing it, and as a result my abilities degraded.

 

[KPM]

And our VT is called one-dimensional because we focus on simple things that actually work under real pressure.

What? You don't think those layers and layers of "abstract" thought and training are also going to go out the window under real pressure??? You don't think all the "abstract" principles from your entire dummy form are going to go out the window under real pressure???

 

[guy b.]

What? You don't think those layers and layers of "abstract" thought and training are also going to go out the window under real pressure??? You don't think all the "abstract" principles from your entire dummy form are going to go out the window under real pressure???

Train hard, fight easy.

The conceptual base is simple, yet profound. Easy to understand, difficult to internalise. It holds up very well under pressure once you have it. This is what all the training is for; what the system is for.

 

[guy b.]

You

You aren't sure how much this is covered in tcma? You haven't been to a VT class where the instructor discussed it? Lol

 

[SaulGoodman]

Train hard, fight easy.

The conceptual base is simple, yet profound. Easy to understand, difficult to internalise. It holds up very well under pressure once you have it. This is what all the training is for; what the system is for.

There's no such thing as an easy fight, you talk like the classical "theoretical fighter" that the martial arts world is plagued with. Fighting is ugly, frightening and visceral. Throwing out sound bites like "train hard fight easy" speaks volumes about your practical experience. Keep your advice to yourself if this is the best you have.

 

[SaulGoodman]

You aren't sure how much this is covered in tcma? You haven't been to a VT class where the instructor discussed it? Lol

LOL? I think I can hear your mother shouting in the background to get off the internet because you're using too much of her monthly bandwidth limit...

 

[guy b.]

There's no such thing as an easy fight, you talk like the classical "theoretical fighter" that the martial arts world is plagued with. Fighting is ugly, frightening and visceral. Throwing out sound bites like "train hard fight easy" speaks volumes about your practical experience. Keep your advice to yourself if this is the best you have.

Fighting is easier if you train hard. The only way to internalise VT is to train a lot; it is not a fast process. But once internalised the approach to the fight is both simple and resilient under pressure.

 

[guy b.]

LOL?

Yes lol. You need to be more convincing.

 

[LFJ]

There's no such thing as an easy fight, you talk like the classical "theoretical fighter" that the martial arts world is plagued with. Fighting is ugly, frightening and visceral. Throwing out sound bites like "train hard fight easy" speaks volumes about your practical experience. Keep your advice to yourself if this is the best you have.

This is an aged military maxim... Another version is "Hard training - easy combat; easy training - hard combat".

The quote is attributed to Alexander Suvorov who "is one of the greatest generals in history and is one of the few who never lost a battle, being undefeated in over 60 large battles while frequently having the numerical disadvantage".

Go tell him what volumes about practical experience his sound bite speaks!

 

[LFJ]

What? You don't think those layers and layers of "abstract" thought and training are also going to go out the window under real pressure??? You don't think all the "abstract" principles from your entire dummy form are going to go out the window under real pressure???

What layers and layers?

Of course simple principles are more reliable than "sensitivity" at high speeds, never mind high stress levels.

 

[Phobius]

What layers and layers?

Of course simple principles are more reliable than "sensitivity" at high speeds, never mind high stress levels.

Just wanted to add "sensitivity" at high speeds are part of a muscle memory. You have it without knowing it probably yourself because I seriously doubt your VT is that different. Whenever your opponent makes another decision quickly you automatically adjust to handle it, whether it be to punch straight through or to move around finding new ways.

Your mind during all that "sensitivity" training is not on what you are suppose to do when you feel something, your reaction will be there no matter if you think about something else or not.

To say "sensitivity" is not reliable at high speeds is true to those that lose their mind during high stress levels, fact is those people will lose all training whether it is from VT or WC. Reason being you can't fight when your mind is in turmoil.

You are saying simple principles, these are not the regular principles of VT? Those have to be trained into your body prior to fighting. You can't think of your principles when fighting, you have to fight naturally. Principles are part of training you to fight a certain way naturally.

 

[Juany118]

This is why training your art under "battlefield conditions" is so important.

That was the entire point of the post I had made previously where I discussed ways to cope with the stress. The post you quote is more simply showing that every modern army has to cope with the issue and as such the tools/methods of coping are rather well documented.

 

[yak sao]

you can't fight when your mind is in turmoil.

Which makes SNT a vital part of the equation.

 

[LFJ]

Just wanted to add "sensitivity" at high speeds are part of a muscle memory.

Sensitivity is defined by some as ting-ging, "listening to energy", the ability to feel and interpret your opponent's energy through contact. It has nothing to do with muscle memory, because it's not an action but a sensation.

Whenever your opponent makes another decision quickly you automatically adjust to handle it, whether it be to punch straight through or to move around finding new ways.

That's done through spatial awareness and LSJC. It should be built into muscle memory, but has nothing to do with "sensitivity" as defined above.

Your mind during all that "sensitivity" training is not on what you are suppose to do when you feel something, your reaction will be there no matter if you think about something else or not.

To say "sensitivity" is not reliable at high speeds is true to those that lose their mind during high stress levels, fact is those people will lose all training whether it is from VT or WC. Reason being you can't fight when your mind is in turmoil.

When the heart rate is elevated to the point of causing fine motor/sensory impairment, you can forget about sensing subtle tactile information and reacting appropriately.

Even if you are able to train to retain fine motor control, there's simply no time to be feeling arms that are throwing a barrage of punches at you.

Still, VT skills will be available because they are based on simple principles of movement that take advantage of more gross motor skills like... stepping and punching.

You are saying simple principles, these are not the regular principles of VT? Those have to be trained into your body prior to fighting. You can't think of your principles when fighting, you have to fight naturally. Principles are part of training you to fight a certain way naturally.

The regular principles of VT are simple, are they not? Of course it takes hard training even for simple stuff to not break down under real pressure.

All the more complex stuff that relies on relaxation, arm contact, and sensing energy is not reliable at high speeds and stress levels. If even simple things like footwork and elbow control can fail, this type of stuff is pure fantasy.

 

[Phobius]

Sensitivity is defined by some as ting-ging, "listening to energy", the ability to feel and interpret your opponent's energy through contact. It has nothing to do with muscle memory, because it's not an action but a sensation.

I thought this would be obvious. Muscle memory needs a trigger, the feel is the trigger. That ability to react will only occur if forward intent is present, without forward intent at least I am unable to connect it as a triggering point.

That's done through spatial awareness and LSJC. It should be built into muscle memory, but has nothing to do with "sensitivity" as defined above.

I do not disagree that spatial awareness is also one important thing.

When the heart rate is elevated to the point of causing fine motor/sensory impairment, you can forget about sensing subtle tactile information and reacting appropriately.

Even if you are able to train to retain fine motor control, there's simply no time to be feeling arms that are throwing a barrage of punches at you.

Still, VT skills will be available because they are based on simple principles of movement that take advantage of more gross motor skills like... stepping and punching.

You talk as if a system can only have one thing, there may be a barrage of punches. At least some will touch parts of the arm(s). Other skills are also necessary like stepping, footwork in general, positioning, body movements and so on. But all skills have their area of importance.

If your only target was to fight a boxer in a ring then perhaps I would call sensitivity one of the least used skills in most cases. But it is not the only scenario. Same feeling in your entire body is trained for BJJ artists. They will feel when and how the opponent moves and as soon as there is an opening without even seeing anything, they will be there attacking that opening.

Also even during adrenaline rush your senses are there, in some cases even enhanced. The problem is not your senses, it is when you become unfocused in your mind, as soon as your mind gets in the way filling your head with thoughts that is the time when you are in trouble. Fortunately this is something you can actually train yourself not to do. Of course there are those who think things like meditation have no part in martial arts but the key is to learn to control your mind so it wont get in your way when fighting.

The regular principles of VT are simple, are they not? Of course it takes hard training even for simple stuff to not break down under real pressure.

Not saying they are not, but interpreting them into each scenario causes your mind to be filled with thoughts of what you should do. That means you will always be fighting one second behind your opponent. If it is not already a part of your muscles then you have no use for it, it is in fact so embedded you do not know anything else. This is what makes it simple, but in truth what actually happens is that the concepts are not part of you when fighting, your training is and everything that has become the norm for you will be there automatically.

This is the risk of early sparring as well, people will fall back to those things they think is norm. Often boxing looking style, their newly trained structure and techniques/concepts go out the window because it is not trained nearly as long as they have had their idea that fighting is like boxing. If the spar as if boxer they despite constantly training their new thing will each time it is sparring bring back the old again. Some but not all may extend the time it actually takes before they can use what they were taught in actual combat.

All the more complex stuff that relies on relaxation, arm contact, and sensing energy is not reliable at high speeds and stress levels. If even simple things like footwork and elbow control can fail, this type of stuff is pure fantasy.

Learn to relax your mind, clear it of thought. Not only important in this case, also when you drive a car and are about to get hit by another car. At that instant in time when your brain realize the problem your mind should be a blank, this ironically leaves you the time to weigh your options and select best way of handling the crash that is incoming. Sadly part of how I realized the value of clear mind.

So fantasy it is not, just because you can not do it. It is neither hard nor complex. But you do not train to do it since it is not part of your VT and as such it should be impossible for you. It simply is not part of your muscles and being as a whole.

Not even saying it is better in any way, it is just a tool that is useful in some situations, less so in others.

 

[Juany118]

I thought this would be obvious. Muscle memory needs a trigger, the feel is the trigger. That ability to react will only occur if forward intent is present, without forward intent at least I am unable to connect it as a triggering point.



I do not disagree that spatial awareness is also one important thing.





You talk as if a system can only have one thing, there may be a barrage of punches. At least some will touch parts of the arm(s). Other skills are also necessary like stepping, footwork in general, positioning, body movements and so on. But all skills have their area of importance.

If your only target was to fight a boxer in a ring then perhaps I would call sensitivity one of the least used skills in most cases. But it is not the only scenario. Same feeling in your entire body is trained for BJJ artists. They will feel when and how the opponent moves and as soon as there is an opening without even seeing anything, they will be there attacking that opening.

Also even during adrenaline rush your senses are there, in some cases even enhanced. The problem is not your senses, it is when you become unfocused in your mind, as soon as your mind gets in the way filling your head with thoughts that is the time when you are in trouble. Fortunately this is something you can actually train yourself not to do. Of course there are those who think things like meditation have no part in martial arts but the key is to learn to control your mind so it wont get in your way when fighting.



Not saying they are not, but interpreting them into each scenario causes your mind to be filled with thoughts of what you should do. That means you will always be fighting one second behind your opponent. If it is not already a part of your muscles then you have no use for it, it is in fact so embedded you do not know anything else. This is what makes it simple, but in truth what actually happens is that the concepts are not part of you when fighting, your training is and everything that has become the norm for you will be there automatically.

This is the risk of early sparring as well, people will fall back to those things they think is norm. Often boxing looking style, their newly trained structure and techniques/concepts go out the window because it is not trained nearly as long as they have had their idea that fighting is like boxing. If the spar as if boxer they despite constantly training their new thing will each time it is sparring bring back the old again. Some but not all may extend the time it actually takes before they can use what they were taught in actual combat.



Learn to relax your mind, clear it of thought. Not only important in this case, also when you drive a car and are about to get hit by another car. At that instant in time when your brain realize the problem your mind should be a blank, this ironically leaves you the time to weigh your options and select best way of handling the crash that is incoming. Sadly part of how I realized the value of clear mind.

So fantasy it is not, just because you can not do it. It is neither hard nor complex. But you do not train to do it since it is not part of your VT and as such it should be impossible for you. It simply is not part of your muscles and being as a whole.

Not even saying it is better in any way, it is just a tool that is useful in some situations, less so in others.

You are both kinda right and kinda wrong. You are right in that senses are heightened with elevated heart rate when under the effect of adrenaline, even reflexes and control are enhanced. On average that is in the 115 to 145 BPM. As you go above 145 however things start to degrade because your nervous system is simply becoming overwhelmed by the hormonal cascade brought on by fight or flight.

Where I think LFJ is wrong, if I am not misunderstanding him, is that this can't be dealt with, it can be. This is where getting the fine motor control muscle memory comes in. If it didn't work the modern army would fall apart as soon as combat starts as firearms use in modern warfare is all about fine motor control. Now what you have to remember here is that with fine motor skills it's not just enough to learn them like gross motor skills, it is NOT like riding a bike, the skills must be constantly practiced because fine motor control memory is highly perishable.

Second tactical breathing. If you practice tactical breathing so it becomes second nature this actually will lower your heart rate under stress. Your heart rate is increasing because your body is saying "crap it's fight or flight I need more oxygen!!!!!!!" Proper tactical breathing means that your body is getting more oxygen out of the gate and then, along with a good cardio program, your body uses oxygen more efficiently (by strength in the heart and lungs) so the heart rate stays lower. This together with the muscle memory means your will be far more capable of using whatever your chosen art it effectively under the stress of a real hostile encounter.

Now I also suggest one additional thing, and it will sound weird. One other effect of a high hr is that you will get literal tunnel vision, your field of view narrows. The suggestion? Buy a cheap Halloween mask and do some training with it. This will limit your field of vision and force you to adopt scanning methods in order to have full situational address. Seems weird but until you are used to scanning "natural" the mask is a useful tool as it basically forces you to do it.

 

[LFJ]

Where I think LFJ is wrong, if I am not misunderstanding him, is that this can't be dealt with, it can be. This is where getting the fine motor control muscle memory comes in. If it didn't work the modern army would fall apart as soon as combat starts as firearms use in modern warfare is all about fine motor control. Now what you have to remember here is that with fine motor skills it's not just enough to learn them like gross motor skills, it is NOT like riding a bike, the skills must be constantly practiced because fine motor control memory is highly perishable.

Didn't say loss of fine motor skills can't be dealt with.

As I said toward the end of my previous post; Even if you are able to train to retain fine motor control, there's simply no time to be feeling arms that are throwing a barrage of punches at you.

Of course you can train to inoculate yourself against stress to an extent (breath control, as you explain, is an important part), but this addresses the loss of fine motor control, which is less important for fist fighting, since we don't need to do anything like flip off a safety (fine) before we can punch someone (gross).

But at high speeds, like I said, there's simply no time to be feeling and interpreting energies regardless of stress levels.

Phobius draws an analogy to BJJ where sensitivity is something practical. But ground fighting is an entirely different situation from fist fighting. In ground grappling you have the luxury of time to be patient, feel, and wait for the opportunity you need to apply your technique. In a standing fist fight, there is no such prolonged chi-sau-esque arm contact.

I can't count the number of people who have come from lineages where the fighting strategy was predicated on such contact and sensitivity and only ever seemed to work for them when they were playing chi-sau with a likeminded classmate. In free fighting, none of that stuff worked anymore because there was no such contact to work from. So, all the muscle memory didn't matter because it needs a "trigger"– as a Phobius said– a trigger that never comes.

 

[Juany118]

Didn't say loss of fine motor skills can't be dealt with.

As I said toward the end of my previous post; Even if you are able to train to retain fine motor control, there's simply no time to be feeling arms that are throwing a barrage of punches at you.

Of course you can train to inoculate yourself against stress to an extent (breath control, as you explain, is an important part), but this addresses the loss of fine motor control, which is less important for fist fighting, since we don't need to do anything like flip off a safety (fine) before we can punch someone (gross).

But at high speeds, like I said, there's simply no time to be feeling and interpreting energies regardless of stress levels.

Phobius draws an analogy to BJJ where sensitivity is something practical. But ground fighting is an entirely different situation from fist fighting. In ground grappling you have the luxury of time to be patient, feel, and wait for the opportunity you need to apply your technique. In a standing fist fight, there is no such prolonged chi-sau-esque arm contact.

I can't count the number of people who have come from lineages where the fighting strategy was predicated on such contact and sensitivity and only ever seemed to work for them when they were playing chi-sau with a likeminded classmate. In free fighting, none of that stuff worked anymore because there was no such contact to work from. So, all the muscle memory didn't matter because it needs a "trigger"– as a Phobius said– a trigger that never comes.

Okay, that I get and sorry for misunderstanding. My "trigger", as an example, isn't sensitivity, rather it's simply being able to read body language. After almost 20 years I can judge fairly well when someone is going to be aggressive, the only thing "sensitivity" tells me is not whether to pull the trigger or not, rather what trigger to pull.
1. I see defensive resistance and it's Chin Na with strikes only as necessary to bring Chin Na to bare.
2. If it is active aggression I simply respond in kind until it creates flight or defensive resistance, then return to 1.

It is possible to use sensitivity even in an adrenaline dump, you just need to experience it enough times so that you can better control the effects.