Ba Gua and Wing Chun

[Juany118]

I've heard this tale as well, and it shows how one legend can be absorbed into another because of a common ancestor, in this case Yongchun White Crane. The story you relate is actually one of the legends surrounding the formation of Ngo Cho Kun (Wuzu Quan), the 5 Ancestors method. The coming together of 5 styles (Monkey, Crane, Lohan, Tai Cho and Dat Mor). The tale became to be associated with Wing Chun because of Yongchun White Crane, it is a predominant part of 5 Ancestors, to the point, that some branches are known as White Crane without the distinction of the other arts.

There are just so many legends when it comes to WC. We have the Ng Mui related ones, then one that have Yim Wing-Chun learning different Martial Arts styles from her father and that in using them with her own structure, essentially identical to one of the Whitecrane legends as well, just with the names changed. As an example, the father's names, Yim Sei and Fong Jong respectively. Then we have the issue that at least 5 martial arts tie their creation to Ng Mui, often in similar ways.

All that said Myths tend to have kernels of truth buried within. So if we are presented with an art that has many different creation myths, most if not all of which are shared with other arts, I think it's time to go into "Mr. Spock" mode. With WC the only thing you can really do, in Mr. Spock mode, is work backwards, looking at the art itself and seeing what story appears to fit its structure best, because the art is the only "fact" we really have to compare against the myths that isn't in dispute.

As an example, the Chinese Government officially recognized there was a Southern Shaolin Temple but the Northern Shaolin Temple points out there are no records to verify its existence and while they have found evidence of multiple Temples in the south there is no archeological evidence that any of them were a "Shaolin" Temple. We can't even prove some people existed, forget Ng Mui, there isn't even verifiable proof Leung Bik existed. It's legend, rumor and inuendo. Gotta love it

 

[KPM]

Ng Mui was simply the lone survivor of this committee.

I am familiar with that version of legendary history myself. But the story was the Ng Mui AND Chi Sim were the survivors. Ng Mui founded Wing Chun and Chi Sim founded Weng Chun, and it is said that this is why the arts are similar. My sifu in Weng Chun still tells the story that what Chi Sim taught was a culmination of arts from Shaolin and not anything to do with an ancestral White Crane style. And there is no "snake" connection at all in Weng Chun. So I've theorized in the past that "original" Wing Chun and Weng Chun were probably very similar, if not the same.....and that it may very well have been this "snake" influence on Wing Chun that took it down a divergent path from Weng Chun.

 

[Juany118]

I am familiar with that version of legendary history myself. But the story was the Ng Mui AND Chi Sim were the survivors. Ng Mui founded Wing Chun and Chi Sim founded Weng Chun, and it is said that this is why the arts are similar. My sifu in Weng Chun still tells the story that what Chi Sim taught was a culmination of arts from Shaolin and not anything to do with an ancestral White Crane style. And there is no "snake" connection at all in Weng Chun. So I've theorized in the past that "original" Wing Chun and Weng Chun were probably very similar, if not the same.....and that it may very well have been this "snake" influence on Wing Chun that took it down a divergent path from Weng Chun.

I was actually watching a video with a mainland with where he said Wing Chun and Weng Chun are the same art. What he was told is that the State had outlawed Weng Chun so people started saying "Weng Chun? No I study WING Chun, you got the wrong guy." Lol

 

[KPM]

I was actually watching a video with a mainland with where he said Wing Chun and Weng Chun are the same art. What he was told is that the State had outlawed Weng Chun so people started saying "Weng Chun? No I study WING Chun, you got the wrong guy." Lol

That may have applied 100 years ago. But obviously different arts today due to divergent development. One story told in Weng Chun circles is that Leung Jan and Fung Siu Ching were teaching in Foshan at the same time. LJ had a dispute with another Weng Chun teacher and it was FSC that convinced them they were doing the same art and should work together.

 

[Juany118]

That may have applied 100 years ago. But obviously different arts today due to divergent development. One story told in Weng Chun circles is that Leung Jan and Fung Siu Ching were teaching in Foshan at the same time. LJ had a dispute with another Weng Chun teacher and it was FSC that convinced them they were doing the same art and should work together.

I would have to learn A LOT more about the main land WC styles and Weng Chun period BUT one wonders if the difference isn't really tied to one cat, Leung Jan in the example you raised, but rather if we would see more, or less, "drift" across all of the Lineages of both. If this is the case then it could simply be as much a case, if not more, of Family lineage divergence as it is Weng vs Wing, could it not?

 

[KPM]

I would have to learn A LOT more about the main land WC styles and Weng Chun period BUT one wonders if the difference isn't really tied to one cat, Leung Jan in the example you raised, but rather if we would see more, or less, "drift" across all of the Lineages of both. If this is the case then it could simply be as much a case, if not more, of Family lineage divergence as it is Weng vs Wing, could it not?

Honestly, I take that story I relayed with a "grain of salt." I think Wing Chun has had the "3 form" version of empty hands for a long time. Leung Jan passed this down to Chan Wah Shun, and his classmate Fok Bo Chuen passed this down to Yuen Kay Shan, strongly suggesting that this is how it was taught by Wong Wah Bo. But Weng Chun has never had this format. If there is any grain of truth to that story, it is probably that the biomechanics and applications were likely very similar if not the same, even if the curriculum and teaching format was different. So that still leaves room for "divergent" development or "drift" even during the Red Boat stage of history or before. And I am sure we would see "drift" across all of the lineages over time as you said. Most of these guys knew more than one system of kung fu. If you have guys that have been doing Hung Kuen since childhood that then convert to Wx Chun, their background in Hung Kuen can't help but influence how they do their Chun. This was certainly a factor in Weng Chun down the years! Sum Nung studied a different version of Wing Chun before he became Yuen Kay Shan's student. He even incorporated some of it into the curriculum when he began to teach. So his prior studies certainly influenced what he taught later. Chan Wah Shun's son taught something totally different from what most people would identify as Wing Chun or Weng Chun because he added in a lot of stuff from different styles. So really, I don't think there is any such animal as "original" Wing Chun still around. Every living example has changed somewhat with each generation that passed it on.

And back then there was no video recording to prove what previous generations had practiced. So you can have guys like Wong Shun Leung stating that he was teaching just what Ip Man taught him. And we don't know how to interpret that. He wouldn't necessarily mean he was teaching the EXACT same curriculum and EXACT same biomechanics, etc. Wing Chun is one of those systems were you are expected to adapt things to yourself and not necessarily just copy your teacher. So knowing this, maybe WSL was doing what Ip Man taught him, even if he had modified, stream-lined, improved (!) etc what he was passing on. Same would have gone from prior generations. If someone asked Ip Man, he probably told them he was doing exactly what he learned from his teacher. But we know he changed things over the years. That doesn't make either of them liars! They likely just didn't mean what we think they meant! ;-)

 

[Juany118]

Honestly, I take that story I relayed with a "grain of salt." I think Wing Chun has had the "3 form" version of empty hands for a long time. Leung Jan passed this down to Chan Wah Shun, and his classmate Fok Bo Chuen passed this down to Yuen Kay Shan, strongly suggesting that this is how it was taught by Wong Wah Bo. But Weng Chun has never had this format. If there is any grain of truth to that story, it is probably that the biomechanics and applications were likely very similar if not the same, even if the curriculum and teaching format was different. So that still leaves room for "divergent" development or "drift" even during the Red Boat stage of history or before. And I am sure we would see "drift" across all of the lineages over time as you said. Most of these guys knew more than one system of kung fu. If you have guys that have been doing Hung Kuen since childhood that then convert to Wx Chun, their background in Hung Kuen can't help but influence how they do their Chun. This was certainly a factor in Weng Chun down the years! Sum Nung studied a different version of Wing Chun before he became Yuen Kay Shan's student. He even incorporated some of it into the curriculum when he began to teach. So his prior studies certainly influenced what he taught later. Chan Wah Shun's son taught something totally different from what most people would identify as Wing Chun or Weng Chun because he added in a lot of stuff from different styles. So really, I don't think there is any such animal as "original" Wing Chun still around. Every living example has changed somewhat with each generation that passed it on.

And back then there was no video recording to prove what previous generations had practiced. So you can have guys like Wong Shun Leung stating that he was teaching just what Ip Man taught him. And we don't know how to interpret that. He wouldn't necessarily mean he was teaching the EXACT same curriculum and EXACT same biomechanics, etc. Wing Chun is one of those systems were you are expected to adapt things to yourself and not necessarily just copy your teacher. So knowing this, maybe WSL was doing what Ip Man taught him, even if he had modified, stream-lined, improved (!) etc what he was passing on. Same would have gone from prior generations. If someone asked Ip Man, he probably told them he was doing exactly what he learned from his teacher. But we know he changed things over the years. That doesn't make either of them liars! They likely just didn't mean what we think they meant! ;-)

Agreed. I have said again and again, "my WC is not your WC. We all bring ourselves to our art." Previous training will inevitably be part of this.

As for the last I think, to an extent, "I teach what my Sifu taught me" can be boiled down to the following, for the modest student.

1. Respect. If you do something different it can be perceived by some that you are saying "My Sifu was wrong." There are many other reasons to explain a change of course but to avoid even having to engage in that conversation you may simply say "I teach what I was taught."
2. Reality. A single Martial Art is VAST in scope. Techniques, foundational principles, strategy. Often the difference between Master and Student is priorities.

Then you combine how we all bring ourselves to our art. I think, as you raised his name, WSL is the perfect example. WSL was first, according to what we a told, someone training in Western Boxing. This would help explain why he focuses of the punch, where others may prefer the palm strike.

Then we have the video I posted of DP speaking about the mook jong. DP says that WSL changed the order, putting the techniques he felt most relevant, based on his challenge fight experience, first. He didn't change the techniques though, only the order and that was based on how HE fought the challenge matches. However nothing he teaches, technique wise, is something YM didn't teach him, WSL simply prioritizes in his own way.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

Honestly, I take that story I relayed with a "grain of salt." I think Wing Chun has had the "3 form" version of empty hands for a long time. Leung Jan passed this down to Chan Wah Shun, and his classmate Fok Bo Chuen passed this down to Yuen Kay Shan, strongly suggesting that this is how it was taught by Wong Wah Bo. But Weng Chun has never had this format. If there is any grain of truth to that story, it is probably that the biomechanics and applications were likely very similar if not the same, even if the curriculum and teaching format was different. So that still leaves room for "divergent" development or "drift" even during the Red Boat stage of history or before. And I am sure we would see "drift" across all of the lineages over time as you said. Most of these guys knew more than one system of kung fu. If you have guys that have been doing Hung Kuen since childhood that then convert to Wx Chun, their background in Hung Kuen can't help but influence how they do their Chun. This was certainly a factor in Weng Chun down the years! Sum Nung studied a different version of Wing Chun before he became Yuen Kay Shan's student. He even incorporated some of it into the curriculum when he began to teach. So his prior studies certainly influenced what he taught later. Chan Wah Shun's son taught something totally different from what most people would identify as Wing Chun or Weng Chun because he added in a lot of stuff from different styles. So really, I don't think there is any such animal as "original" Wing Chun still around. Every living example has changed somewhat with each generation that passed it on.

And back then there was no video recording to prove what previous generations had practiced. So you can have guys like Wong Shun Leung stating that he was teaching just what Ip Man taught him. And we don't know how to interpret that. He wouldn't necessarily mean he was teaching the EXACT same curriculum and EXACT same biomechanics, etc. Wing Chun is one of those systems were you are expected to adapt things to yourself and not necessarily just copy your teacher. So knowing this, maybe WSL was doing what Ip Man taught him, even if he had modified, stream-lined, improved (!) etc what he was passing on. Same would have gone from prior generations. If someone asked Ip Man, he probably told them he was doing exactly what he learned from his teacher. But we know he changed things over the years. That doesn't make either of them liars! They likely just didn't mean what we think they meant! ;-)

Hi, not disagreeing with you but just a correction. Sum nung learnt from a different teacher before yuen kay san but the same art not a different wing chun. Cheung bo is of the same lineage decending from fung siu ching.

 

[KPM]

Hi, not disagreeing with you but just a correction. Sum nung learnt from a different teacher before yuen kay san but the same art not a different wing chun. Cheung bo is of the same lineage decending from fung siu ching.

Uh. Sorry. Cheung Bo left students other than Sum Nung. All you have to do is look to see that it wasn't the same thing. The 12 San Sik taught at the beginning of the system came from Cheung Bo. Yuen Kay Shan didn't teach that. Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun is primarily from Fok Bo Chuen. Fung Siu Ching was Weng Chun. When I see Sum Nung/Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun I don't see any Weng Chun in their essential mechanics and forms. Maybe FSC helped YKS refine some things or add some Chin Na elements, but the system is very much Wing Chun and not Weng Chun. I'm not sure Cheung Bo's lineage has ever been firmly established.

 

[Vajramusti]

This is a long shot, as it is not a well known topic, but I'd thought I'd ask just in case anyone has ever heard about it.

There is an obscure hypothesis concerning a relationship between Wing Chun and Bagua Zhang.
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Bagua is a symbol that is quite common in Chinese traditions. Bagua the CMA is only one example of it.
Explosive power in wing chun is sometimes called baqua geng.

 

[greytowhite]

Interesting. Fan Zhiyong's baguazhang has a Stepping in 8 Directions footwork pattern.

ChinaFromInside.com presents...  BAGUAZHANG - Origins and characteristics of Fan Family Baguazhang

Jonathan Bluestein interviewed James Cama of Fut Sao Wing Chun before he passed and apparently there was some kind of Imperial Baguazhang (most likely related to Yin Fu or Gong Baotien?) that looked like an advanced set in the Fut Sao system also named Bagua. What do I know?

 

[obi_juan_salami]

Uh. Sorry. Cheung Bo left students other than Sum Nung. All you have to do is look to see that it wasn't the same thing. The 12 San Sik taught at the beginning of the system came from Cheung Bo. Yuen Kay Shan didn't teach that. Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun is primarily from Fok Bo Chuen. Fung Siu Ching was Weng Chun. When I see Sum Nung/Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun I don't see any Weng Chun in their essential mechanics and forms. Maybe FSC helped YKS refine some things or add some Chin Na elements, but the system is very much Wing Chun and not Weng Chun. I'm not sure Cheung Bo's lineage has ever been firmly established.

So you are saying that dai fa min kam and wong wah bo, who both learned from leung bok toh, did different styles and past down completely different versions down to fok bo chun and fung siu ching? Considering that fok bo chun was a student of both wong wah bo and dai fa min kam . They had the same teacher

 

[Eric_H]

Found this on Youku by plugging in the characters for Se Ying Diu Sau. My Chinese isn't very good, but the description stated Snake Form Artful Hand. This fellow is known for his Deng Family Hung Kuen and a Hard Style Wing Chun. In this video, which is mostly a tutorial, he shows some things that are very Wing Chun like, I'm not ruling it out that it is Wing Chun because one part he did was nearly identical to the Fa Kuen section of Yuen Family Siu Lim Tau. Maybe someone else can clairify what is in this video, because if it's not Wing Chun it sure looks like it.

蛇形刁手—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看

Looks closer to weng chun to me.

 

[KPM]

So you are saying that dai fa min kam and wong wah bo, who both learned from leung bok toh, did different styles and past down completely different versions down to fok bo chun and fung siu ching? Considering that fok bo chun was a student of both wong wah bo and dai fa min kam . They had the same teacher

Dai Fa Min Kam learned from Chi Sim not Leung Bok Chao according to Weng Chun histories. Very few connect Fok Bo Chuen and Fung Siu Ching at all, other than to say that Yuen Kay Shan learned from both of them. And I've never heard anyone else say that Fok Bo Chuen learned from Dai Fa Min Kam. Wing Chun and Weng Chun are not the same art. Cousins. But not the same art.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

Dai Fa Min Kam learned from Chi Sim not Leung Bok Chao according to Weng Chun histories. Very few connect Fok Bo Chuen and Fung Siu Ching at all, other than to say that Yuen Kay Shan learned from both of them. And I've never heard anyone else say that Fok Bo Chuen learned from Dai Fa Min Kam. Wing Chun and Weng Chun are not the same art. Cousins. But not the same art.

Then i guess its a matter of whos verbally past down history ia correct. Weng chun or yks wing chun history. As in sum nung wing chun history dai fa min kam did indeed learn from leung bok toh and taugh both fok bo chun and fung siu ching. It was fok bo chun that reccommended yuen kay san to his kung fu brother fung siu ching for instruction. But as we know this argument will never be settled as it is like i said, a matter of which history you choose to believe. I choose to believe the history told by sum nung and my teachers.

 

[KPM]

^^^^ Very true! Its hard to treat any of it as real "history." Hard to know what is right! I just know that YKS Wing Chun looks nothing at all like Weng Chun.

 

[Juany118]

^^^^ Very true! Its hard to treat any of it as real "history." Hard to know what is right! I just know that YKS Wing Chun looks nothing at all like Weng Chun.

With how good the Chinese were at keeping other records is any else like "WTF!!!!!!!!!!" when it comes to the craptastic records like this. I am not even talking "official" records. How many diaries and letters do we have from "common folk" and in China MA training, for the most part, wasn't actually given to the most "common" people. Martial Arts training cost money (outside of your family) and most people were too busy working to survive, let alone having the money to pay for the training. The lack of documentation is thus disconcerting to me, especially since China has a LONG history of diarists among the literate, which martial artists often were... Keeping a Diary in China: Memories for the Future | The China Story

Sorry, I guess once a history freak always a history freak.

 

[Jens]

Nvm

Southern Bagua stepping encompasses plum blossom aka: 5 elements, 4 points & 8 directions.

Please clarify how the 5 elements, 4 points & 8 directions fits into the plum blossom

 

[Juany118]

Please clarify how the 5 elements, 4 points & 8 directions fits into the plum blossom

Because traditional plum blossom training (using 9 poles) has you moving out in the 8 directions or moving diagonally to the 4 corners/points?

 

[Nobody Important]

Please clarify how the 5 elements, 4 points & 8 directions fits into the plum blossom

Southern Bagua stepping is based on 9 points, 8 on the perimeter and 1 in the center, the 8 directions. Plum blossom (5 Elements) are the same thing, and are based on a 5 point star, all points are found within the Bagua. The 4 Cardinal points (4 Gates) are the north, south, east & west points. Another variation of 5 elements is the north, south, east, west and central points of the Bagua. Southern Bagua stepping is based upon a Mandela that encompasses the other major stepping patterns.