What if Wing Chun remained a concept...

[Nobody Important]

There is a good reason that hand fighting/grip fighting in grappling doesn't look anything like chi sau- the aims are misaligned/contradictory. Grip fighting is both a grappling drill and directly applicable to grappling competition. Chi sau is a striking drill but is not directly applicable to striking. It is difficult to see what benefit chi sau could bring to grappling that is lacking from actual grappling training?



I think that it is less realistic and practical to directly apply chi sau to grappling (or striking), than to use it for the purpose for which it was designed.

I think that learning grappling would be more effective than chi sau direct application if you wish to apply locks and holds to a resisting opponent.

I'm not in total disagreement with you though I believe their is benefit in the concepts of Chi Sau that directly overlap with grappling. Since grappling is prolonged contact & Chi Sau is about manipulation of pressure, I think conceptually they are well suited, but not in the classical sense. The platforms for Chi Sau will not translate to grappling.

I used to play with a group of grapplers (BJJ, Kodokan Judo & freestyle). I wasn't very good at wrestling, but knew a lot of Kum Na methods & Chi Sau. The grapplers were surprised how difficult it was to finish me because of how I reacted to pressure. Though I would lose they were impressed & we traded methods. They liked how I responded to ground & pound (because of Chi Sau concepts) and how hard I was to control in the stand up game. They taught me how to grapple better & I taught them how to defend better, especially in stand up. With most things, open mindedness, approach & practicality go a long way.

 

[guy b.]

Now I must ask you, you consider techniques like bong-sau and jum-sau and so on to be abstract movements to teach you punching only? There is no such movement in fighting? Given that contact and sensing is not part of your style. You have no ability to sense when your structure needs to shift, sort of like shifting a punch to bong-sau, prior to structural collapse?

They are for removing obstructions. If your punch doesn't reach the target, you can jut. If you need to open a punching line you can bong. Shifting a punch to bong sau prior to structural collapse is not something we would do.

Edit: jam sao is a punching idea

 

[guy b.]

Since grappling is prolonged contact & Chi Sau is about manipulation of pressure, I think conceptually they are well suited, but not in the classical sense

I don't believe chi sau to be about manipulation of pressure. I think that it is a mistake correcting and idea reinforcing drill for striking, and an attribute builder in terms of force and structure.

 

[Phobius]

They are for removing obstructions. If your punch doesn't reach the target, you can jut. If you need to open a punching line you can bong. Shifting a punch to bong sau prior to structural collapse is not something we would do.

Edit: jam sao is a punching idea

I see, thanks for the information. This is information that does not seem to equal the way of local WSLVT club. Then again you have already stated that not all WSLVT is the way you speak.

For us, fook sau (sp?) is abstract and yet still present, jam, jut and bong are not. Difference is jam is present in the punch but not as developed as in WSLVT lineage most likely. Given that WSLVT specialize in the punching part. Bong however I do not and would not move towards any opponent. To me it is a way to not break structure and not collapse.

Instead a bong sau is created from our punches or whatever movement arm is doing, by forward intent from opponent, or as way to deflect said intent by shifting position and as such bong sau is created from that forward intent of opponent by our own footwork.

I am terrible at explaining fighting in english words.

So this brings up a question of mine that you may have gotten previously, I just dont recall in that case what the answer was. How do you find a bong sau situation? Do you move outwards with a bong sau to reach opponent and make contact? Do you use it to confront incoming force and deflect it? How do you make decision on when bong sau is the proper structure to use?

 

[Nobody Important]

I believe what you're describing is blocking, though I could be assuming incorrectly. Sensitivity and redirection are necessary when sticking and can only be used when pressure is felt, otherwise it is something different. I'm OK with that interpretation if that's what works for you and is what you are comfortable with. Thank you for the response.

I don't believe chi sau to be about manipulation of pressure. I think that it is a mistake correcting and idea reinforcing drill for striking, and an attribute builder in terms of force and structure.

 

[guy b.]

I believe what you're describing is blocking, though I could be assuming incorrectly.

You are assuming incorrectly

Sensitivity and redirection are necessary when sticking and can only be used when pressure is felt, otherwise it is something different.

No sticking, no feeling

I'm OK with that interpretation if that's what works for you and is what you are comfortable with

??

 

[guy b.]

I see, thanks for the information. This is information that does not seem to equal the way of local WSLVT club.

Who runs the local WSL VT club?

For us, fook sau (sp?) is abstract and yet still present, jam, jut and bong are not. Difference is jam is present in the punch

Not really sure what you mean?

Instead a bong sau is created from our punches or whatever movement arm is doing, by forward intent from opponent, or as way to deflect said intent by shifting position and as such bong sau is created from that forward intent of opponent by our own footwork.

Sounds like sensing/feeling

ow do you make decision on when bong sau is the proper structure to use?

Use when opponents arms are in the way. Decide by seeing.

 

[Nobody Important]

I don't believe that one can realistically, in mid stream, change from a punch to another technique as a means of recovery as effectively and efficiently as some proclaim. Especially without actually feeling & responding to actual pressure of some sort. Our eyes can mislead us and throw off our timing and distance.

In the midst of an aggressive exchange the mind will become focused on the immediate action called upon. Very hard in milliseconds to go from offense to defense and back again, especially when a wrench has been thrown in the mix to divert from the original task. Boxing is very quick and is an exclusive use of the hands. They have blocks and parries yet you rarely see single handed offensive/defensive movements within the same action. It's just not realistic because of the speed of a punch. You will see counters, but they start as one or the other, like a parry then jab. They do not start as a jab & think "oh I messed up, I need to turn this into a parry then jab because of xyz reason". The speed and timing required to pull off some of these actions being described, is IMO unrealistiic.
Chi Sau requires bridge contact prior to movement. If it's intercept & redirect without prior contact of the bridge it's not Chi Sau it's parrying or blocking which can then lead into trapping & Chi Sau.

 

[SaulGoodman]

Who runs the local WSL VT club?



Not really sure what you mean?



Sounds like sensing/feeling



Use when opponents arms are in the way. Decide by seeing.

You conciously try to use a bong Sao during a furious exchange of punches just by using a visual cue you're joking right?

 

[geezer]

Sure trapping can work and I have used it to some degree but I don't believe it's a high percentage thing and certainly don't go looking for it. And thanks for the sarcastic reply, nice.

I think we are on the same page here, Saul. Deliberately going for the trap never works for me anyway. But sometimes when I drive in punching, as one punch hits and drops to make room for the next, you find that you can lap or jut down your opponent's arms, crossing and trapping them for an instant. Same following a fak sau, etc. What you do then is up to you. I like to move in even closer, clinch and go to an elbow or throw. I don't know if that's proper VT or not (we'll have to ask Guy, i guess). But it works ...sometimes anyway.

Now about my snarky range post. Sorry. ..But it is a nice one!

 

[Phobius]

Not really sure what you mean?

Just meant to say that Fook to me may be abstract at least in terms of punching. The others are not.

Jum Sau however can sometimes be embedded into punching. So it is present by elbow in the punch itself.

Sounds like sensing/feeling

Yes, part of my other posts I write what acts as triggers, sensing changes of force in order to react quickly and without thought.

Causing your movements to become natural responses.

Use when opponents arms are in the way. Decide by seeing.

So in terms of seeing you use to get clear path upon visual trigger. Not how I do it. But another question for you.

When doing bong Sau, do you move the arms with bong or is bong remaining still and your body moving to shift position?

Also do you use bong Sau to clash forward forces with opponents?

 

[Phobius]

I don't believe that one can realistically, in mid stream, change from a punch to another technique as a means of recovery as effectively and efficiently as some proclaim. Especially without actually feeling & responding to actual pressure of some sort. Our eyes can mislead us and throw off our timing and distance.

I agree, which is why I am talking about preventing structural collapse is cause for rolling to new "technique" through feeling.

It is trained as natural response to that sense of incoming force but trained with more refined sense of force and forward intent in drills to be easier, not easy, to use on greater forces and changes in actual application.

Refined sensing in real fighting I believe is closer to myth but good for practice. Now prolonged contact is another type of sensing and one I consider more destructive at times to your training.

 

[LFJ]

Bong-sau is not sticking, not feeling, and especially not allowing the opponent to make us turn... like their puppet on a string!

@2:29 Attack line is obstructed from above. Can't punch. Can't retract arm or will get hit. So, elbow uses paak energy to ballistically displace the obstruction clearing a line to punch through, as @2:45. Opponent gets turned. We remain facing and punch, punch, punch!

 

[guy b.]

Here is bong:

Ving Tsun Kung Fu Philipp Bayer ASD

 

[SaulGoodman]

Here is bong:

Ving Tsun Kung Fu Philipp Bayer ASD

And you claim you have the superior veeeteeee.....

 

[WTchap]

Bong-sau is not sticking, not feeling, and especially not allowing the opponent to make us turn... like their puppet on a string!

@2:29 Attack line is obstructed from above. Can't punch. Can't retract arm or will get hit. So, elbow uses paak energy to ballistically displace the obstruction clearing a line to punch through, as @2:45. Opponent gets turned. We remain facing and punch, punch, punch!

It's a nice clip - PB always demos very well. There's no question, the man is very good at what he does. To me, however, it is a bit like watching Emin in some of this clips (he's equally skilled) - the disparity in skill between the teacher and the student is such that they can easily show how their method works brilliantly.

Rather like with Shawn Obasi. PB worked showed SO how this method works, and so did Emin. Both leaving a strong/positive impression on SO, who knew that both guys seriously outclassed him in skill/knowledge/abiliity to apply.

Do you have a good clip of Bong being used in an exchange between two more evenly matched guys? It would give a more representative use in terms of timing.

(Note, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with PB's timing , his timing and flow is sometimes damn near perfect, but he's always one beat or so ahead of the guys he's playing with)

 

[LFJ]

That wasn't an exchange, only a demonstration of the action and effect, enough to explain the idea.

 

[WTchap]

That wasn't an exchange, only a demonstration of the action and effect, enough to explain the idea.

Understood. But if you have a clip showing an exchange between two evenly matched guys, it would show how the action and effect can work under stress. This is what I was getting at.

 

[SaulGoodman]

Understood. But if you have a clip showing an exchange between two evenly matched guys, it would show how the action and effect can work under stress. This is what I was getting at.

You won't see a clip of bong being used like this when both people are working at full speed. The only clips the WSLVT guys show to back up their superior fighting method are demos. All these clips prove is that they are good at demos, nothing more.

 

[LFJ]

You know how to use paak-sau, right? It works under stress, right? It's the same thing just with the elbow. Why would you think it would not work at full speed?