What hit the Pentagon?

[Makalakumu]

Here we go again....

Save the tifoil, read this thread again http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30749

PLENTY of experts way more credible than any HS teacher have weighed in on this. STRUCTURAL ENGINEERS agree with the collapse. Ill take their word over some conspiracy theory hack with an astronomy degree in physics any day.

m(1)v(1) + m(2)v(2) = m(t)v(t)

Do the math yourself. That is all other people did. They attempted to check the results that NIST came up with and those results could not be replicated.

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...agar-0112.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/dyk.html

Just as in the other thread, all of your sources are nothing but the official story cut and pasted into other journals. There are lots of claims made, but when you get into the details, they all run into the same problems. I'm not going to go into detail on this in this thread. You can read the other one if you want to see what I'm talking about.

 

[Makalakumu]

I do not doubt that people have different opinions.

I never said the government never has lied to us or not given the whole truth.

Live video for the second plane flying into the second tower with the first plane being later showed on personal video.

Would any would believe it if it had not been seen by so many?

So what caused the collapse? Pre-planted explosives? So the US Government killed thousands of people so they could create the freedom act, and homeland security? I think not. I do believe that parties took advantage of a situation as many do who are in pwoer when such a situation arises.


Yet it seems that people are quick to only look at one side.

As to physics, this is good. The basics make sense and can be explained by experts to make their opinion sound right.

I argue all the time with Ph D's because they only have theory, and have no idea what happens under pressure and also under different temperatures.

I have been in meetings where people could not argre because both sides are able to present something in a simplae manner for a presentation for the boss types to make a decision. If no concurrance is found then no decision is made so the new idea is not used until other data can be found.

People who start out with the comments that they are educated and also have experience with something that has limited relationship to the subject at hand, but it distracts and it impresses people, so they listen to the rest.

It is a way to write using positive words and negative words to get your point across it is also part of the standard brain washing techniques that all politicians and others in power use to control people and get people to think the way they want them too.

Being a physicist I would hope that you had an open mind to question for sure, but also recognize that sometimes the easiest answer is the correct answer.

I still think that people took advantage of a situation not people planing this devious act, that would be almost impossible to hide.

I've gone back and forth on this issue several times. And from all that I have read on this, from the official reports to their rebuttles, I've come to the conclusion that I don't have enough information to come to a conclusion. I don't know what really happened.

I think that the questions that these physicists, engineers, other experts are asking are valid ones. And I think that putting them to rest would be the best thing for our country. I would support the government if they would release all of the evidence for independent review, but they have continually refused to do this.

In regards to the topic of this thread, the same group that filed a FIOA to get the tapes of the plane hitting the pentagon is still pushing for the rest of the tapes. The tapes the pentagon released, are not clear at all. Some of the wider angles from places farther back most assuredly would have captured something better.

As far as editing goes, the technology exists that would immediately determine if the tape had been altered. I say, release the tapes, lets have them independently varified and lets put this matter to rest.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.shtml

Why did the building fall so quickly?
The buildings did fall quickly - almost (but not exactly) at the same speed as if there was no resistance. Shouldn't the floors below have slowed it down? The huge dynamic loads due to the very large momentum of the upper floors falling were so great that they smashed through the lower floors very quickly. The columns were not designed to carry these huge loads and they provided little resistance.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/collapse.html

NOVA: You've said that the fire is the most misunderstood part of the World Trade Center collapse. Why?

Eagar: The problem is that most people, even some engineers, talk about temperature and heat as if they're identical. In fact, scientifically, they're only related to each other. Temperature tells me the intensity of the heat -- is it 100 degrees, 200 degrees, 300 degrees? The heat tells me how big the thing is that gets hot. I mean, I could boil a cup of water to make a cup of tea, or I could boil ten gallons of water to cook a bunch of lobsters. So it takes a lot more energy to cook the lobsters -- heat is related to energy. That's the difference: We call the intensity of heat the temperature, and the amount of heat the energy.

NOVA: So with the World Trade Center fire, the heat was much greater than might have been expected in a typical fire?

Eagar: Right. We had all this extra fuel from the aircraft. Now, there have been fires in skyscrapers before. The Hotel Meridien in Philadelphia had a fire, but it didn't do this kind of damage. The real damage in the World Trade Center resulted from the size of the fire. Each floor was about an acre, and the fire covered the whole floor within a few seconds. Ordinarily, it would take a lot longer. If, say, I have an acre of property, and I start a brushfire in one corner, it might take an hour, even with a good wind, to go from one corner and start burning the other corner.

That's what the designers of the World Trade Center were designing for—a fire that starts in a wastepaper basket, for instance. By the time it gets to the far corner of the building, it has already burned up all the fuel that was back at the point of origin. So the beams where it started have already started to cool down and regain their strength before you start to weaken the ones on the other side.

On September 11th, the whole floor was damaged all at once, and that's really the cause of the World Trade Center collapse. There was so much fuel spread so quickly that the entire floor got weakened all at once, whereas in a normal fire, people should not think that if there's a fire in a high-rise building that the building will come crashing down. This was a very unusual situation, in which someone dumped 10,000 gallons of jet fuel in an instant.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Mister wizard time:

Who can squeeze a pop can from top to bottom?

Most people cannot as they cannot compress the can and or the sealed liquid inside

Yet if we pop the top it is easier as long as you allow the air to escape via the top and not be compressed.

So now we take a really sharp knife or saw and cut as small a slice in the dise of the can as we want. Empty the liquid and the can be compressed even easier than from the top as the structure of the can has been damaged. The small slice will rip open and create a bigger whole.

Do the same experiment with the pop still in the can and the slice on the side. It is hard to do as one has to compress the liquid to over come the stress point of the slice so it get bigger and the liquid escapes and becomes even easier as you compress it down. Of course just like folding a piece of paper there is a limit on the number of time you can fold it you also have a limit on how far one can compress it as now you have to over come the strength of the compressed metal.

Once the top of the build 10+ floors started to collapse it had over come the strenght of the building and continued to collapse.

The second plane hit lower and damaged the structure lower, and this caused more weight or mass to be above the damaged floor. I think the second tower hit did fall first. I will have to go back and look and refresh my mind.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

Claim: The damage to the Pentagon on September 11 was caused by something other than a hijacked Boeing 757's being crashed into its side.

Status: False.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&articleID=000DA0E2-1E15-128A-9E1583414B7F0000&colID=13

Scientific American

The mistaken belief that a handful of unexplained anomalies can undermine a well-established theory lies at the heart of all conspiratorial thinking (as well as creationism, Holocaust denial and the various crank theories of physics). All the "evidence" for a 9/11 conspiracy falls under the rubric of this fallacy. Such notions are easily refuted by noting that scientific theories are not built on single facts alone but on a convergence of evidence assembled from multiple lines of inquiry.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

This is a GREAT article!

http://www.alternet.org/story/12536/

Not good enough: Such a plot -- to execute the simultaneous destruction of the two towers, a piece of the Pentagon, and four airplanes and make it appear as if it all was done by another party -- is far beyond the skill level of U.S. intelligence. It would require dozens (or scores or hundreds) of individuals to attempt such a scheme. They would have to work together, and trust one another not to blow their part or reveal the conspiracy. They would hail from an assortment of agencies (CIA, FBI, INS, Customs, State, FAA, NTSB, DOD, etc.).

Yet anyone with the most basic understanding of how government functions (or does not function) realizes that the various bureaucracies of Washington -- particularly those of the national security "community" -- do not work well together. Even covering up advance knowledge would require an extensive plot. If there truly had been intelligence reports predicting the 9/11 attacks, these reports would have circulated through intelligence and policymaking circles before the folks at the top decided to smother them for geopolitical gain. That would make for a unwieldy conspiracy of silence. And in either scenario -- planning the attacks or permitting them to occur -- everyone who participated in the conspiracy would have to be freakin' sure that all the other plotters would stay quiet.

And isnt that what all this skepticism of the collapse studies comes down to? The gvt is covering up some conspiracy? BUNK! What the gtv IS guilty of IMO was shoody intelligence work and a failure to act when acting was necessary.

 

[Makalakumu]

Mister wizard time:

Who can squeeze a pop can from top to bottom?

Most people cannot as they cannot compress the can and or the sealed liquid inside

Yet if we pop the top it is easier as long as you allow the air to escape via the top and not be compressed.

So now we take a really sharp knife or saw and cut as small a slice in the dise of the can as we want. Empty the liquid and the can be compressed even easier than from the top as the structure of the can has been damaged. The small slice will rip open and create a bigger whole.

Do the same experiment with the pop still in the can and the slice on the side. It is hard to do as one has to compress the liquid to over come the stress point of the slice so it get bigger and the liquid escapes and becomes even easier as you compress it down. Of course just like folding a piece of paper there is a limit on the number of time you can fold it you also have a limit on how far one can compress it as now you have to over come the strength of the compressed metal.

Once the top of the build 10+ floors started to collapse it had over come the strength of the building and continued to collapse.

The second plane hit lower and damaged the structure lower, and this caused more weight or mass to be above the damaged floor. I think the second tower hit did fall first. I will have to go back and look and refresh my mind.

Imagine there is absolutely nothing between the floors. m(1) = 454,454,454 kg and v(1) = 0. Use absolutely any distance you want to determine v(2), it doesn't matter, I used 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9 m. m(2) = m(1)*2 (+ m(1) for each subsequent floor). It will not fall at freefall speed.

Now imagine the steel columns supporting the floors. A good analogy for this would be a pencil standing upright on a desk. Slam your hand down on its sharpened point. How much does it resist?

The official explanation is physically impossible. This is why NIST resorted to computer models which they refuse to release the specs...

Here is a review of the report from a structural engineer used to giving these reports...

2. From another structural engineer:

• "A couple of months back I examined [Jones] claims in detail. Initially I was a bit incredulous… so I downloaded all the official reports basically expecting to find holes in the good prof's hypothesis.
• I'm a professional civil engineer with a lot of experience in the construction of major structures and I was just astounded at what I found. In my COO days if my staff had put up reports like that relating to a disaster on my patch, there is no way they would have been accepted and I would have been asking some very tough questions: The [official] reports are not at all convincing.
• That they are not is a serious worry.
• Regards, Ted [last name withheld pending permission]

 

[Rich Parsons]

Imagine there is absolutely nothing between the floors. m(1) = 454,454,454 kg and v(1) = 0. Use absolutely any distance you want to determine v(2), it doesn't matter, I used 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9 m. m(2) = m(1)*2 (+ m(1) for each subsequent floor). It will not fall at freefall speed.

Now imagine the steel columns supporting the floors. A good analogy for this would be a pencil standing upright on a desk. Slam your hand down on its sharpened point. How much does it resist?

The official explanation is physically impossible. This is why NIST resorted to computer models which they refuse to release the specs...

Here is a review of the report from a structural engineer used to giving these reports...

Yes and the Ph D 's that argued with me told me that a certain switch would not react a certain way that we had field data for. They forgot to compensate for humidity in the case and then fluid that can freeze into ice.

In theory on paper it is real hard to prove why it fell. But it fell.

 

[Jimi]

I do not believe that a space saucer or some other wild craft hit the Pentagon. My only criticisim of the FBI gathering video footage from areas surrounding the Pentagon, is that it can put conspiricies to rest, release the footage. I do not like seeing time, energy, and taxes spent to gather info and then sit on it. If someone wants to believe in assanine theories, let them have their fantasy. Arguing that someones inquest into the other supposed videos,(where are the tapes now and what's on them), tears open the wounds of friends and family of the poor souls lost that day, misses the point. We all want answers, why not silence them with fact? Instead, people are told, don't question us, we know better. Then show us the better truth, people can't swallow the "you can't handle the truth!" response. Maybe showing such video that may have been confiscated can show where the Govmt can improve it's response to such a tragedy. Playing 3 card monty with the publics curiosity breeds distrust. If some fool spouts off with his conspiricy theroy, he will probably be dealt with. Withholding info usually does not help. I thought this was about, WHAT HIT THE PENTAGON? not theroies should be squashed. Just my opion.

 

[MA-Caver]

I do not believe that a space saucer or some other wild craft hit the Pentagon. My only criticisim of the FBI gathering video footage from areas surrounding the Pentagon, is that it can put conspiricies to rest, release the footage. I do not like seeing time, energy, and taxes spent to gather info and then sit on it. If someone wants to believe in assanine theories, let them have their fantasy. Arguing that someones inquest into the other supposed videos,(where are the tapes now and what's on them), tears open the wounds of friends and family of the poor souls lost that day, misses the point. We all want answers, why not silence them with fact? Instead, people are told, don't question us, we know better. Then show us the better truth, people can't swallow the "you can't handle the truth!" response. Maybe showing such video that may have been confiscated can show where the Govmt can improve it's response to such a tragedy. Playing 3 card monty with the publics curiosity breeds distrust. If some fool spouts off with his conspiricy theroy, he will probably be dealt with. Withholding info usually does not help. I thought this was about, WHAT HIT THE PENTAGON? not theroies should be squashed. Just my opion.

Exactly my point. Four years later and they refuse to release CLEAR CUT IRREFUTABLE video footage or hell, even fuzzy, blurry but clearly identifiable images of a huge jet liner hitting the pentagon... what POSSIBLE reason do they have for sitting on it and letting the government and present administration take all this flak? What national security issue could they have to need to keep secret about pre-plane pentagon that's more important than post plane pentagon?
It's what's driving these so-called nuts (and you can see how they're discredited already) nuts!
I'm not a moron and neither do I wish to think ill of my government (stupid to do so anyway), but to patronize me and millions of others that "we wouldn't understand" like we're children is taking it too far. Hell, I thought WE THE PEOPLE were in charge of these United States and thus have the right to know what goes on in our own country. Or did I miss something?

I've said it before. I love my country and will die defending it. But I'm having a lot of trouble trusting/loving my government.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

A plane hit the pentagon.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

 

[Jimi]

I don't doubt that a plane hit the pentagon, the fact that other commercial aircraft were used that day makes it so likely, that a belief that something other than a plane hit the pentagon is shear fantasy. I don't see how someones inquest into what other evidence was gathered by the govmnt opens wounds of the families and the country. The govmnt should answer to us, any hint at showing evidence seeming like the 3 shell game makes people want to believe in some non-exsistant conspiricy. Maybe the footage people are asking about shows how an aircraft could fly low enough to not be noticed is such a security risk, other terrorists may become copy cats. But it has been done now, so that cat may be out of the bag. If our govmnt can do anything it likes without showing evidence for its efforts and our taxes, then there is no true checks and balances anymore. A PLANE HIT THE PANTAGON! I agree that whole heartedly, some others brought up questioning where is this evidence gathered by the FBI or whatever agency got a hold of it, and that gave some people imagination food for thought to think all kinds of notions.