hoshin1600
Senior Master
i was actually making a rhetorical question to the OP.... but yeah you nailed it. except i would classify technique as a tactic.
What does Taekwondo have that Muay Thai does not?
- Thread starter Marnetmar
- Start date
hoshin1600
Senior Master
What does TaeKwondo have that Muay Thai does not?
ok....
ok....
- fancy white or colored dobok with colored trim
- impractical stances for full contact ring fighting
- nunchucku and/or bo staff classes (depending on the school)
- no or light contact point sparring
- the title for being the most popular MA for children
- board breaking for rank promotion
- a reputation for being ineffective for street fights (deserved or not)
- a lack of hand skills (depending on the school)
- usage of Korean language
- a blatant appropriation of the shotokan style
skribs
Grandmaster
Tactics are the application of the techniques. You might have a great back kick, but if all you do is throw that back kick, it's not going to work.
Most of these sound like more like efficiencies you think Muay Thai has that Taekwondo doesn't.
TrueJim
Master Black Belt
I have a question about the "blatant appropriation" phrase. As I understand it, Itosu Ankoh taught shorin-ryu to Funakoshi Gichin who created shotokan.
If I have that right, would you also say that shotokan is a blatant appropriation of shorin-ryu?
TrueJim
Master Black Belt
Actually that's a massively incorrect reading of the history.
TrueJim
Master Black Belt
Surely shotokan is derived from something, and in a way that makes it "derived from" while not being a "blatant appropriation". What is the distinction?
To elaborate:
Gichin Funakoshi's teacher was Ankho Azato. Itosu was his teacher's friend who he trained with for a while, or who watched him train while visiting Azato.
Funakoshi's karate was the karate of Azato who learned it from Bushi Matsumura.
Itosu was kicked out of Matsumura's lessons and learned from a Naha te guy who died. On said Naha master's death bed he admitted he had only taught Itosu strength training not real karate.
Itosu finally found a patient teacher in Tomari.
When he Itosu sent Funakoshi to spread his ethos of karate as a discipline and fitness building tool for kids (aka the pinan kata) for the Japanese Imperial machine that was ramping up at the time, it was because Funakoshi was a well spoken educated man who had been known to him for decades, not because he was a student.
The only thing of Itosu that Funakoshi taught was the pinan kata, but in true Okinawan fashion he taught them in the way that fit his other forms because he understood karate enough to do that.
Shotokan is Itosu-fied Matsumura Karate (in that it was taught as a spirit enhancer not fighting art) that was then appropriated by the Japanese who bolted on Kendo strategy and ignored everything they couldn't fit into that way of working.
Itosu's Shorin ryu is a parallel strain of Karate but in no way is it the progenitor of Shotokan.
Gichin Funakoshi's teacher was Ankho Azato. Itosu was his teacher's friend who he trained with for a while, or who watched him train while visiting Azato.
Funakoshi's karate was the karate of Azato who learned it from Bushi Matsumura.
Itosu was kicked out of Matsumura's lessons and learned from a Naha te guy who died. On said Naha master's death bed he admitted he had only taught Itosu strength training not real karate.
Itosu finally found a patient teacher in Tomari.
When he Itosu sent Funakoshi to spread his ethos of karate as a discipline and fitness building tool for kids (aka the pinan kata) for the Japanese Imperial machine that was ramping up at the time, it was because Funakoshi was a well spoken educated man who had been known to him for decades, not because he was a student.
The only thing of Itosu that Funakoshi taught was the pinan kata, but in true Okinawan fashion he taught them in the way that fit his other forms because he understood karate enough to do that.
Shotokan is Itosu-fied Matsumura Karate (in that it was taught as a spirit enhancer not fighting art) that was then appropriated by the Japanese who bolted on Kendo strategy and ignored everything they couldn't fit into that way of working.
Itosu's Shorin ryu is a parallel strain of Karate but in no way is it the progenitor of Shotokan.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
um no...
for the moment we will put @DaveB comments aside. Itosu, Azato or anyone else in that generation did not teach shorin- ryu. they knew and taught Tode. karate was not even officially named karate until around the 1930"s. so Funakoshi learned Tode and began using the karate term along with his "Pen" name of Shoto. shotokan "house of shoto". Funakoshi had studied many forms and felt what he taught was a general collection and over view of the Okinawan Tode art. he was quite straight forward about who his teachers were, where he came from and its origins. how the art was modified by the Japanese educational system is another story.
Tae Kwon do on the other hand has not been so transparent on its origins and history. this is what to me makes it appropriated.
skribs
Grandmaster
Maybe when it started, but even then it was more Tang Soo Do that took from Shotokan. Taekwondo combined Shotokan with other Korean arts, and has evolved into something different. If you're training Taekwondo as it was in the 60s, then sure. But if you're training Taekwondo at 99.99% of the schools today, you're not learning the same thing.
Heck, what I learned as a kid in the 90s is different than what I learn in Taekwondo in the 2010s.
TrueJim
Master Black Belt
I think that's a meaningful distinction. We might say that something is "derived" from another when credit is freely cited, but use the word "appropriated" when the source material is intentionally obfuscated. Even today the Kukkiwon website is bizarrely silent on the topic of karate:
World Taekwondo Headquarters
"Korean martial arts could not be practiced because of the regulations against that activity and the policies of repression of the Japanese government during the Japanese colonial period. After achieving independence, some leaders of Taekwondo tried to secure their own legitimacy and improve Taekwondo after August 15th, National Liberation Day. After achieving independence, modern Taekwondo Dojangs appeared, such as Chungdoguan, Songmuguan, Mudukguan, Joseon Yeonmuguan kwonbubbu, and the Central YMCA Kwonbubbu, and the instruction of techniques began."
The three main ITF websites are likewise silent on the topic of karate On the other hand, the taekwondo article seen on the Korean version of Wikipedia is a bit more forthcoming on the topic:
태권도 - 위키백과, 우리 모두의 백과사전
"It is true that early Taekwondo was greatly influenced by the Karate, and Taekwondo can be seen as a martial art based on the Karate [5]. At the time, when Taekwondo became the mother of the Taekwondo, some of the nine presidents did not learn karate, and some were more skilled in Chinese practice."
Every Korean master I've ever spoken with freely cites karate as a progenitor of taekwondo. I suppose it's just the "official" story that lingers behind modern and widely-accepted reality.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Yeah I don't hold with that.
You can use those arms and legs in a lot of different ways.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Yeah. See I was a bit on the side of impractical stances. Then Wonder boy started basically making it work. So I am conflicted.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
TKD was invented for this flagship Korean art or something?
Which if I had to suddenly come up with a martial art. I would have blatantly appropriated it as well.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
i fully understand the issue and can sympathize with them. its not much different than the Okinawans changing the name Tode which is a direct pointing to its Chinese roots to karate which completely changes its meaning to empty hand in order to satisfy the Japanese government.
You mean the same stance (wide, fully bladed, hands low) that folks like Steve "Wonderboy" Thompson and Conor McGregor use? I think it's been demonstrated that such a stance can work effectively in MMA by someone who understands its proper use.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
yeah @drop bear pointed that out as well. my bad. but to be real about it wonderboy and McGregor are exceptional thus an exception not the norm. its something most people have trouble pulling off.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
It is not something I will be adopting any time soon. But it can be done.
That might be related more to the training methods/goals of people who train from that stance more, rather than the stance itself.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
There is a few avenues to fight and be sideways.
Michael page came out of shiny pants kickboxing.
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