What does being "pro life" mean to you?

Omar B

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  1. An entity means a self-sufficient form of existence—as against a quality, an action, a relationship, etc., which are simply aspects of an entity that we separate out by specialized focus. An entity is a thing.
  2. An entity, in the primary sense, is a solid thing with a definite boundary—as against a fluid, such as air. In the literal sense, air is not an entity. There are contexts, such as when the wind moves as one mass, when you can call it that, by analogy, but in the primary sense, fluids are not entities.
  3. An entity is perceptual in scale, in size. In other words it is a “this” which you can point to and grasp by human perception. In an extended sense you can call molecules—or the universe as a whole—“entities,” because they are self-sufficient things. But in the primary sense when we say that entities are what is given in sense perception, we mean solid things which we can directly perceive.
The development of human cognition starts with the ability to perceive things, i.e., entities. Of man’s five cognitive senses, only two provide him with a direct awareness of entities: sight and touch. The other three senses—hearing, taste and smell—give him an awareness of some of an entity’s attributes (or of the consequences produced by an entity): they tell him that something makes sounds, or something tastes sweet, or something smells fresh; but in order to perceive this something, he needs sight and/or touch.

The concept “entity” is (implicitly) the start of man’s conceptual development and the building-block of his entire conceptual structure. It is by perceiving entities that man perceives the universe.

Breath is apart of my definition because I believe a thing becomes a separate entity when it leaves it's mother, thus differentiated from another and is a complete whole onto itself. So no, the inability to breath on your own after say an accident does not take away the concept of identity from an individual, because identity has already been established. The person is a specific existent, separate and apart from it's mother's womb.

The concept “existent” undergoes three stages of development in man’s mind. The first stage is a child’s awareness of objects, of things—which represents the concept “entity.” The second and closely allied stage is the awareness of specific, particular things which he can recognize and distinguish from the rest of his perceptual field—which represents the concept “identity.”
 

elder999

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Metaphor. G-d talking about Israel. Nithing to do with when human life begins.

More to the point, the verse in question speaks of before you were formed in the womb...., which wouldn't be a fetus at all, but an idea: the proverbial "glimmer in the father's eye."

. I think being pro life should mean more than that, it should be being for the sanctity of all life, in this context human life primarily, and should really include all the above and even more. Of course being "pro life" certainly could include animal life, insect life, you name it life. What does being "pro life" mean to you? I think few people are really "pro death?"

Lets see. "Pro-life" typically means "anti-abortion." Well, Im anti-abortion. I must be "pro-life," right?

Well, Im also "pro-choice." I believe in a womans right to choose.

Whats that you say? I cant be both? Well, sure I can. Im anti-abortion: Ill never have one, and Ill never be party to one. I brought up my kids to never have one or be party to one. If I were a doctor, I wouldnt perform one. When my daughter becomes a doctor, Im pretty sure she wont perform one-shes gonna be a shrink, anyway, so its just not that likely. I guess thats about as "pro-life" as I can be.

I dont really like that phrase, though, "pro-life." Not just for the reasons Ive outlined above, but for a variety of others. If we focus on the OPs original question:


What does being "pro life" mean to you?

Well, thats a completely different kettle of fish.

The way I was raised, all of life is sacred-that doesnt mean sacrosanct,-as in (without the benefit of the MWOELTM) "regarded as sacred and inviolable, -but merely, "sacred" as in, "worthy of veneration and respect, highly valued and important."

What that means, then, is that when my father took me hunting, I was taught to respect the animals I killed, to talk to them, and let them know that I would try to use their energy in ways that they would find pleasing. To literally ask which animal was ready to die for that, and to take it. What it means, from where I sit, is that if, rather than having ever taken life to nourish yourself-if you have no experience in raising livestock or hunting, killing an animal and preparing it-transitioning it from living thing to "food"-by killing, gutting, skinning and dressing it, and have always gotten your daily meat from the grocery store, pre killed, gutted, skinned, cut to order and redressed in plastic-then you are not "pro-life." You live at a distance, removed from the very death that always supports every form of life, especially humans. Nothing walks upon the planet that does not live at the benefit of something elses death-how then can we not be "pro-death?"

Of course, Im not at all saying that everyone should live the way I do, nor do I think that everyone could. Mores the pity. I recognize the benefits of our modern food supply, as well as some of its pitfalls, and also recognize how convenient and necessary it is. But if your meat has always come hairless and wrapped in plastic, then an essential aspect of life is lost to you-at least, thats my opinion.

What it also means-"life being sacred"- is an implied "quality of life." Thats supported by Christian and Jewish scripture, BTW:

If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things, and he does not even have a proper burial, then I say, `Better the miscarriage than he, for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name is covered in obscurity. It never sees the sun and it never knows anything; it is better off than he.'"Ecclesiastes 6:3-5
Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 4:1-3




These are in addition to the lament of Job-all wisdom that offers an implicit idea of a quality of life being inherent to what we call "human life."

To my mind, if you cant recognize that some humans are truly "better off dead.," or "not having lived," you cannot call yourself "pro-life." If you do recognize this, while you can certainly be (as I am) anti-abortion, you cannot, in good conscience, say that it shouldnt be available.

Once, as an EMT, I came upon a car accident. It was basically just a fender bender, with minor injuries and damage......except to the poor dog that started it, a basset hound that bayed pitifully, dragging its smashed rear legs and pelvis, and trailing entrails-for that is what its organs had become- along the road as it tried to move itself. No one was doing anything about it, and, in the end, I knelt down, offered the dog what comfort I could until it was still, and put a bullet in its head.

One of the most "pro-life" things I think Ive ever done.

 

nwalker

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Metaphor. G-d talking about Israel. Nithing to do with when human life begins.

Where do you draw the conclusion that God was speaking to Israel and not to a human?

Thanks for your answer Mr Omar B, but i fail to see where you have showed that a baby in a mothers womb is not a separate life from the mother only because it depends on the mother, while I agree that the baby is limited in what it can perceive what do you have to show that the child in the womb does not perceive anything?

This is one of those discussions that at the end of the day we will all have to agree to disagree.
 

CanuckMA

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Where do you draw the conclusion that God was speaking to Israel and not to a human?

Let's see. Years of studying Torah. The way all other writings from Jeremiah is written. Maybe because I'm an Orthodox Jew, and this is text from my Bible.
 

Omar B

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Where do you draw the conclusion that God was speaking to Israel and not to a human?
Thanks for your answer Mr Omar B, but i fail to see where you have showed that a baby in a mothers womb is not a separate life from the mother only because it depends on the mother, while I agree that the baby is limited in what it can perceive what do you have to show that the child in the womb does not perceive anything?
This is one of those discussions that at the end of the day we will all have to agree to disagree.

Disagree with what? You've provided no thoughts on the subject, no proofs, nothing but a couple questions. I would agree to disagree if I knew what I was agreeing to disagree with.
 

nwalker

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Disagree with what? You've provided no thoughts on the subject, no proofs, nothing but a couple questions. I would agree to disagree if I knew what I was agreeing to disagree with.

The question is "What does being "pro life" mean to you"... I feel it means that any form of abortion at any stage is wrong, I do not have to provide proofs of anything as this is what it means to me.
 

nwalker

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Let's see. Years of studying Torah. The way all other writings from Jeremiah is written. Maybe because I'm an Orthodox Jew, and this is text from my Bible.

It appears that God is speaking directly to Jeremiah and calling him to service, I only asked the question, not to be sarcastic and confrontational but to understand how you understand this text?
 

Tez3

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It appears that God is speaking directly to Jeremiah and calling him to service, I only asked the question, not to be sarcastic and confrontational but to understand how you understand this text?

The answer isn't a saracastic one at all, he's simply telling you how we know what it means.

so how does everyone stand on this sad case?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8099210.stm
 

elder999

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It appears that God is speaking directly to Jeremiah and calling him to service, I only asked the question, not to be sarcastic and confrontational but to understand how you understand this text?

We covered a great deal of this ground in an earlier thread, however....

But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen! 2Thus says the Lord who made you, who formed you in the womb and will help you: Do not fear, O Jacob my servant, Jeshurun whom I have chosen. 3For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour my spirit upon your descendants, and my blessing on your offspring. 4They shall spring up like a green tamarisk, like willows by flowing streams. 5This one will say, "I am the Lord's," another will be called by the name of Jacob, yet another will write on the hand, "The Lord's," and adopt the name of Israel Isaiah 44:1-5

Isaiah 44 is from Deutero-Isaiah, written by an anonymous prophet in Babylonian exile between 546 and 538 BC. This was a period of termendous suffering and sadness for Israel, and this particular book is often called a "book of consolation." Israel's unfaithful relationship with God has led to her exile, and now the prophet is reminding Israel of her special relationship with God, and of God's promise to restore her. This passage in particular is a prophetic utterance: the words of God are spoken by the prophet, to Israel-also called, affectionately (here and in parts of Deuteronomy), Jeshurun, or "dependable one," and, patrinomically, Jacob, for the father of the 12 tribes.

As such, the words "formed you in the womb" are clearly metaphorical, and meant to show the relationship between God and Israel as likened to that of a mother who has born children.
 

CanuckMA

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Elder, for a goyim you grasp it well. OTOH, I have a sharp knife, we could fix you up. :lfao:
 

nwalker

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The answer isn't a saracastic one at all, he's simply telling you how we know what it means.

I am sorry Tez but if you read my post I did not mention to elder that he was saracastic, I mentioned that "I asked the question not to be sarcastic or confrontational so that Mr Elder would not take an offence to my questioning his belief......
 

Tez3

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The answer isn't a saracastic one at all, he's simply telling you how we know what it means.

I am sorry Tez but if you read my post I did not mention to elder that he was saracastic, I mentioned that "I asked the question not to be sarcastic or confrontational so that Mr Elder would not take an offence to my questioning his belief......

You directed the post at Canuck not Elder and it implied sarcasm.
 

Tez3

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Ok MoM!
:rolleyes:
Now that sarcasm!

G'day Mate!

Huh! you call that sarcasm? I'm the Queen of Sarcasm (according to my mother lol) and that is nothing! :lfao:

Warning though don't mix up Elder with anyone..he's one of a kind :yoda:


Now I'm going to go and hide for saying that Elder is MTs own Yoda... he's as wise but taller, much taller!
 

elder999

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Warning though don't mix up Elder with anyone..he's one of a kind :yoda:


Now I'm going to go and hide for saying that Elder is MTs own Yoda... he's as wise but taller, much taller!

Better looking I am, as well-mistaken me for an unknown species, you have....:lol:

"Wise," I am not. Know a lot of **** about nothing, do I. :lol:
 

nwalker

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Well I am not much of the sarcastic type so it is a strech for me!

Sorry elder for the mix!

Just to clear things us I was quoting Jeremiah 1 and not Isaiah, and in my txt it does appear that the Lord is speaking directly to Jeremiah. Is it metaphor, maybe, that is the thing when it comes to these disscusions any one can make the Bible say whatever they want and if it doesn't then they translate it so it will.

Concerning when is life a life, i like Gen 25:22, there are countless other places too but this one just comes to mind.

I do not believe that someone having or performing an abortion will send them to Hell... a Christian that believes that needs to evaluate their what they believe.
 

elder999

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Well I am not much of the sarcastic type so it is a strech for me!

Sorry elder for the mix!

Just to clear things us I was quoting Jeremiah 1 and not Isaiah, and in my txt it does appear that the Lord is speaking directly to Jeremiah. Is it metaphor, maybe, that is the thing when it comes to these disscusions any one can make the Bible say whatever they want and if it doesn't then they translate it so it will.

Oops. My bad. Same thing kind of applies, though:

Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, 5“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” 6Then I said, “Ah, Lord God! Truly I do not know how to speak, for I am only a boy.” 7But the Lord said to me, “Do not say, ‘I am only a boy’; for you shall go to all to whom I send you, and you shall speak whatever I command you, 8Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you to deliver you, says the Lord.” 9Then the Lord put out his hand and touched my mouth; and the Lord said to me, “Now I have put my words in your mouth. 10See, today I appoint you over nations and over kingdoms, to pluck up and to pull down, to destroy and to overthrow, to build and to plant.” Jeremiah 1:1-10

This is, in fact, God speaking to Jeremiah, and an important moment, the calling of a prophet. As such, it is really one supernatural being (the prophet) relating the story of his speaking with the SUpernatural Being, and typically not only done in hyperbolous metaphor, but a conversation that clearly doesn't apply to anyone else to boot.

In any case, of course God "knew him before he formed him in the womb," isn't speaking at all of the physical being, but the spiritual being that would become Jeremiah.



Concerning when is life a life, i like Gen 25:22, there are countless other places too but this one just comes to mind.

19 These are the descendants of Isaac, Abraham's son: Abraham was the father of Isaac, 20 and Isaac was forty years old when he married Rebekah, daughter of Bethuel the Aramean of Paddan-aram, sister of Laban the Aramean. 21 Isaac prayed to the Lord for his wife, because she was barren; and the Lord granted his prayer, and his wife Rebekah conceived. 22 The children struggled together within her; and she said, "If it is to be this way, why do I live?" F77 So she went to inquire of the Lord. 23 And the Lord said to her, "Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples born of you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the elder shall serve the younger." 24 When her time to give birth was at hand, there were twins in her womb.Genesis 25:19-24

The "struggle within" is an actual physical phenomena that occurs with mutlitple births-twins do struggle in utero, on occasion. In any case, this is clearly used as a metaphor for the struggle between the two nations that would be Esau and Jacob.

Again,Biblically and within Jewish law, the start of life is when the baby draws breath. Period.
 

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