What characterizes the empty hand techniques of Ninjitsu?

[Ravensign]

All I hear about Ninjitsu are about how secret it is, and how its a comprehensive combat art.

I am just curious what Ninjitsu hand to hand fighting is like. Is there a system that is more widely known that it resembles?

Thanks.

 

[Cthulhu]

Having only a very basic knowledge of ninjutsu, I can only mention taijutsu, or ninpo taijutsu, or whatever they call it nowadays.

Also, except for maybe the more esoteric teachings, ninjutsu really isn't that secretive any more.

Jay Bell can better answer your questions, I think. He's demonstrated a tremendous amount of knowledge about ninjutsu, it's history, and traditions. Waitaminute...ain't that a book?

Cthulhu

 

[Jay Bell]

Hi all,

Well after that setup...my goodness...how could I not respond

The only Ninpo school that I've studied is Togakure ryu...and not as a whole, just yearly seminars up in the woods...so my take on Togakure ryu is pretty limited.

That said, it's my understanding that the Taijutsu from Togakure ryu is very evasive (unarmed). The core idea seems to be to down the attacker, blind them in some sort of way then run and hide.

The mentality behind was pretty fascinating when explained to us. In a very different angle, you are preserving the life of that person who attempted to attack you. There is a very strong tie with nature within the Togakure ryu, and killing goes against the laws of nature unless deemed absolutely necessary.

The physical skills are very evasive and flowing. Unfortunately there's not really an art that seems much at all like Togakure ryu outside of itself.

As Cthulhu said, Ninpo training is not secretive at all. Traditions that do claim to be secretive or teach "unknown deadly secrets" should be viewed as jokes and passed on.

Thanks much, Cthulhu, for the kind words.

Be well!

 

[Bujingodai]

Jay has it right. Evasive techniques and flow are the mainstay. i guess in an idea like Aikido but not LOL. Any school that claims to teach the secret stuff I'd be leary of.

 

[Shinryu]

Originally posted by Ravensign

All I hear about Ninjitsu are about how secret it is, and how its a comprehensive combat art.

I am just curious what Ninjitsu hand to hand fighting is like. Is there a system that is more widely known that it resembles?

Thanks.

The Word is NINJUTSU, not ninjitsu.
All I got to say, Listen to Jay

 

[arnisador]

I'd be interested to hear more; can someone break down for us a specific technique that demonstrates this type of evasive fighting system?

 

[Blacktiger2186]

you could say ninjutsu well the Bujinkan Taijutsu is like jujitsu. 6 of the schools that bujinkan teaches is jujitsu and the other 3 is ninja schools.

so the anwser to your question is it resembles jujitsu.

 

[Jay Bell]

Blacktiger,

Actually, that's not the case at all. Togakure ryu is not 'jujutsu'. And there is more ninpo in the schools of the Bujinkan then the three ryuha that are Ninpo Taijutsu. The theme of this year's training is Takagi Yoshin ryu Jutaijutsu....being a Jujutsu school.

 

[Blacktiger2186]

Jay Bell ,

There are only 3 Main Ninpo schools in the bujinkan system. I know Togakure Ryu isn't jujitsu its one of the ninpo schools.

 

[Jay Bell]

Yes, Togakure ryu is a Ninpo ryuha. However, saying that Ninpo is only contained in the three Ninpo Taijutsu ryuha of the Bujinkan is incorrect.

Ninpo exists in Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu etc..

 

[Makoto-Dojo]

Originally posted by arnisador

I'd be interested to hear more; can someone break down for us a specific technique that demonstrates this type of evasive fighting system?

Ninpo Taijutsu containst the following aspects.

Daken taijutsu:

Daken is a striking art using crushing blows to vital areas on the attackers body. Even the joint locking is done in such a way as to crush and destroy the joint. It is very brutal and are direct battlefield techniques. This is similar to kali in many ways, in terms of Gunting and pannatukan/panananjakman etc...

Difference is that while kali uses many blows that mirror the knife cutting the person to ribbons. Daken, move away (like kali zoning) and crushes the attack until they can enter. When they do, they lock a joint or many joints at once, then holding the joints in this "about to break" position, they use total body weight to slam the attacker to the ground crushing and destroying the joint structure. Vital area attacks continue from here.

Koppo Jutsu:

Koppojutsu is using the bone structure in attack to create awesome power. this is very close to Tai Chi and Hsing Yi. Alignment of the bones, use of momentum and gaining power from the earth.

Another aspect is attacking the bones of the attacker. Bone breaking is a mainstay in this art. Striking 90 degrees to a bone with full body power in an effort to break it in half.

Kosshi Jutsu

This art is close to some styles of silat. Also Ba Kua and Wing Chun. However it is unique to it's self. It is said to have come from China and the flavor is easy to see. But it has evolved to a unique art all it's own.

The use of the bones of the hand, fingers. Feet and toes are directed to vital areas. It is the study of attacking these weakpoints with multipal strikes and creating a spinning vortex of energy.

Ju Tai Jutsu

Also ju jutsu, yawara etc.. This is the study of using the attackers energy against him. Using throws and joint locks and strong pinning techniques. Like Aikido, but more... Brutal. like Judo, but using less strength. Unlike both the above examples, Jutai Jutsu includes strikes and kicks as well

In Genbukan Ninpo Bugei, all of these arts are combined into a functional system that covers all aspects of self protection. Basic to our movement, is taisabaki. Or avoiding the attack. Much like Kali's zero pressure idea We move from the danger into a position where we have the advantage.

This movement includes rolling and leaping as well as stepping. A great example is any jackie chan movie. He is here, he is there. He is up, he is down.. Like a monkey, hard to catch. This is our Taihenjutsu which is our base movement.

Our concept of self protection is broad enough to include dealing with people throwing things from a distance. Trying to run us over with a car. Shooting at use whatever. It is important that your body can respond at any second to move in any direction.

In addition we train in many weapons, both historical and modern.
The use of all around us as a weapon or "tool" is also taught and practiced. Unlike a sporting event, true life and death requires we use EVERYTHING and ANYTHING to give us an advantage. It is not about playing fair, instead, it is about living another day.

We also train in spiritual methods to gain wisdown, so we can know and have the vision and wisdom to make correct decisions in these times. Every action has many layers of result to it. This wisdom governs our every thought word and action.

Genbukan Ninpo Taijutsu is something that must be experienced. It is unique and functional. As well as beautiful and darn fun to train in. I feel it can stand alongside any other great art and be proud.

Kind regards,

 

[heretic888]

thanks for the info, there.

i have a question, however. could anyone tell me if the description given concerning Genbukan ninpo taijutsu is basically similar to Bujinkan taijutsu or Jinenkan taijutsu..... or are there actual differences to the taijutsu of the various schools??? and, if so, what??

thanks.

 

[arnisador]

See also the review by Phil Elmore referred to in this thread.

 

[Makoto-Dojo]

Originally posted by arnisador

See also the review by Phil Elmore referred to in this thread.

Fair enough but also remember that the person who made the video has ZERO to do with Genbukan NINPO and little to do with Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

Second remember Phil has very limited martial arts experience.

Basically the review sheds no light at all on Ninpo. With that enjoy the review...

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Makoto-Dojo

Fair enough but also remember that the person who made the video has ZERO to do with Genbukan NINPO and little to do with Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

Indeed, I took that as something of the point of the matter.

I do not know how much martial arts experience Mr. Elmore has.

 

[Phil Elmore]

Fair enough but also remember that the person who made the video has ZERO to do with Genbukan NINPO and little to do with Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

Second remember Phil has very limited martial arts experience.

Basically the review sheds no light at all on Ninpo. With that enjoy the review...

Mr. Richard Ray Dojo-Cho posted an extremely hostile response to a thread about that review at e-budo, in which he said I was not qualified to do the review, mischaracterized components of it, and generally had quite a fit over the idea that people would be making general conclusions about "Ninpo" based on the Bujingodai.

None of this is, of course, correct. The tape is an example of nothing but what one modern Ninjutsu school does. The review does not claim to offer any great insight into the matter; it only reports, fairly and honestly, what is going on in the tape. Nor do I myself run around saying, "Listen to me! I'm an expert!" The review was never intended to offer insight into "Ninpo," either -- a word that never appears in it.

I would not characterize eleven years spent studying various martial arts as "very limited experience," though I don't much care what Richard (or anyone else) thinks. Whenever someone dislikes a review I've written, usually for some personal reason, they immediately start attacking me as a person -- which is fine by me, as it doesn't mean a thing to me. I have very little go invested in what I do; I do it because it is fun and it is important in the achievement of certain goals.

The content of the review -- or of any person's review or article -- stands on its own. Either it makes sense or it doesn't. It can be judged based on the degree to which its content corresponds to the experience and knowledge of the reader.

It does not trouble me if Richard considers my opinion uninformed, but I find his overreaction at e-budo (since removed by the moderators) curious and telling.

Any students of any form of Ninjutsu so insecure as to believe a single school's training, or an objective analysis of that training made by an outsider, threatens perceptions of all "Ninpo" everywhere, needs to stop and take a very hard look at the Ninjutsu community. While there are some great schools out there, and I hear plenty of great things about both the Bujinkan and the Genbukan, today's ranks of ninja boast some of the biggest crackpots within the martial arts community.

Imagine, if you would, that Dave Gibb denied any relationship between what he does and his former Bujinkan training, or denied that he had ever had anything to do with the Bujinkan at all. People would immediately jump up and down screaming, "See! He steals from them and then denies his roots!"

Someone like Dave Gibb -- who doesn't claim to represent anyone other than himself, and who makes no secret of how he's arrived at what he's doing now, valid or not -- is the least of your worries, Richard. There are plenty of wacky black-clad figures within the martial arts community who claim to be teaching Ninjutsu who are doing very real damage to the image of the art. And none of those people have even a thousandth of a precent of the influence that the Stupid 1980s Ninja Movie Boom had and has.

If you can find something within the review with which you can actually take real issue in a substantive manner, feel free to do so. Dave Gibb himself thought it was fair and has told me so several times.

I always try to be fair, objective, and honest about everything I do. That, I suppose, is enough to worry some people who are, perhaps, a little less secure in what they do than they should be.

 

[Makoto-Dojo]

Phil,

I was in no way hostile. You are being dramatic... I was however blunt. I also was not attacking you as a person. Simply stating the truth. You seem upset about my comment of your experience. Well all someone has to do is look at what you posted on your own page: http://philelmore.com/martial/martial.htm

I don't personally buy the argument that a person has "studied" martial arts for 10 years and has yet to achieve a black belt or teacher ranking of some sort. That is "playing" at martial arts not studying. That is my opinion Phil. Also your friend "put together" an art that you study. I find this un-impressive as well. Simple because I have little respect for modern "put together arts" by people who have not trained in a respected style long enough to understand it and achieve some recognition as a master in it. This again is my personal opinion.

Now, I will admit I over reacted a little in my concern about this review. to be honest, on another day I most likely would have just shook my head and moved on. As a matter of fact, even as I was writting it, I was aware that it was not a good idea. Why? because I knew it would turn to this. however, my response was not as venomous as you are making it out to be. I guess it's a good thing I have saved the thread!

So what is my problem with the review??

First you have every right to do whatever you wish, review whatever you wish of course who am I or who is ANYONE to say otherwise!

Also, I have no problem with David Gibb or what he is doing at all! He may even be a fantastic Budoka! But he is not qualified to represent Ninjutsu for SURE and Ninpo.

You say you never use the term Ninpo. Fair enough. But you do use Ninjutsu! The two words are related by most people as is well known, Ninpo contains Ninjutsu. In a way, Ninjutsu is even a worse choice of words seeing as it has been very rarely taught to ANYONE.

Also Modern Ninjutsu to me and everyone I talked to does not sound like "made up hodge podge Ninjutsu" but current Ninjutsu. What Mr. Gibb does is a composite style, he says based about 40% on Bujinkan bujinkan is 60% Budo not Ninjutsu, so one must ask, why an art, (Mr. Gibbs art) uses the term Ninjutsu when maybe 3% if he's lucky is actual ninjutsu other than wanting a connection to the image of "ninja".

My concern with this is not based on insecurity, although please feel free to think as you wish, instead, it is based on simply being tired of all the crap that hangs on the fringes of ninjutsu/Ninpo today.

There are so many side roads, distractions and false information for sincere seekers of actual Ninpo/Ninjutsu knowledge out there. We have people who say, Ninjutsu did poorly in the UFC. But, what do they base that on? Two people from Bob Bussy's group who DON'T DO NINPO/NINJUTSU! Although they use the name...

To the average person, they don't know, if they seen that UFC, then hear of genbukan or bujinkan etc.. They connect the two which is too bad. In addition we have Ashida Kim, Ron Duncan, Carlos febres Rick tew, Frank Dux etc... All of whom advertise heavey ninjutsu/Ninpo all of whom have nothing to do with it, but to the general public, they don't know, so they will base opinions on these peoples actions and abilities.

Back to the review:

When you said

One of Dave's students repeatedly uses a hand strike that I found curious and very telegraphed. Extending one hand forward to point at the target while cocking the other back at his hip like a bent wing, he moves forward and strikes with the rear hand while bringing the forward arm back to that chambered position.

What caught my eye is that this looks like the empty hand equivalent of a knife fighting technique alleged by Mike Ruppert to be used by the "ninja students" he has sparred -- one that he defeated repeatedly by "palming" the chambered, reverse-gripped knife against the body. Dave said that this is a strike he does from time to time as well, one that allows for a "hidden approach" and which can indeed be used with weapons.

The feeling of that statement is that this strike is not effective. That's fine, but when you asked david and he said it is to hide a weapon. This shows he doesn't understand why he does that strike.

This is why I wish people would let people who KNOW the art make videos on the art. You want to see real Ninjutsu/Ninpo get Sensei Tanemura's Goshin jutsu videos from BAB, if you see something on there that raises a red flag, ask a qualified Dojo-Cho of genbukan for an explaination.

So overall, as I have admitted, I should have let it go. Really the whole thing although being a pet peeve of mine (made up Ninjustu) was nothing to get all worked up about. What I feel bad about is that I was not really trying to attack you in any way, maybe some things I wrotes sounded a bit harsh, I am sorry, I guess I just would have wished you went to the source Tanemura/Hatsumi instead of a fringe side effect art.

I can understand your being upset and I am sorry. I did over react.

Kind regards,

 

[arnisador]

Every style that gets sufficiently popular eventually loses this battle. The term "karate" is completely generic and it still frustrates me to hear talk of "Korean karate" etc. and to have people judge Okinawan karate by what they have learned seeing five year old black belts in TKD ("Korean karate"). For the FMA one sees things like "Kenpo Arnis" all over. Look at the battles over who is teaching the "real" Jeet Kune Do and who is just an imposter! You can't win, I'm afraid.

 

[Phil Elmore]

I was in no way hostile. You are being dramatic...

You were indeed hostile, and I am not being dramatic. As it happens, I saved a copy of my responses to your post at e-budo. Let's look at a few snippets of it. (Brackets indicate my commentary.)

...Now I know this was a private tape given to Phil, but Phil in his need to "review things" has done so and posted it on a few boards...

[This is a mischaracterization -- the tape was sent to me specifically to be reviewed.]

...So whats the problem? Phil by saying he needs to ask his teacher, shows he is not qualified to do a review! So why do it?...

[This, too, is a mischaracterization. At no time did I say I "needed to ask" anyone about anything.]

...Well, what Phil viewed was not Ninpo so how can he answer, second Phil is not experienced enough to answer the question and even David is not experienced enough to be telling anyone what is and is not Ninpo...

...As soon as Phil says he needs to ask his sensei, that shows he himself does not have the experience to review...

[Here the mischaracterization is repeated again.]

...Now of course ANYONE is free to review whatever they like. But Phil is presenting himself(this gets touchy here) as at least "knowledgable" on the arts therefore his opinions will be taken by some with a bit more seriousness than just "some guy"...

[Another mischaracterization; I have never been anything but honest about my background and make no claims of being anything but who I am.]

...In Many ways Phil reminds me of Don C. JR....

[This is reference to Don Cunningham, who was something of the Terror of e-budo's "Bad Budo forum.]

...I also was not attacking you as a person. Simply stating the truth.

You were not stating the truth; you were stating an erroneous conclusion based on conjecture on your part, as you know absolutely nothing about me except what I've told you. It is intellectually dishonest to look at an article and say, "The author is not qualified to write this review" in an attempt to discredit the article, when in fact the only way to address the article substantively is to address its content. When you use that tactic you are commiting the logical fallacy of ad hominem, in which you address the source of an argument rather than the argument itself. This is, quite logically, attacking me rather than the review.

You seem upset about my comment of your experience. Well all someone has to do is look at what you posted on your own page...

I'm not upset at all. That's one of the reasons I post my background publicly in the first place -- because I refuse to pretend to be anything that I am not. I see no reason not to defend the validity of something of written, however.

I don't personally buy the argument that a person has "studied" martial arts for 10 years and has yet to achieve a black belt or teacher ranking of some sort. That is "playing" at martial arts not studying. That is my opinion Phil.

Who is asking you to "buy" it?

Also your friend "put together" an art that you study. I find this un-impressive as well.

Who is asking for you to be impressed?

Simple because I have little respect for modern "put together arts" by people who have not trained in a respected style long enough to understand it and achieve some recognition as a master in it. This again is my personal opinion.

Who is asking for you respect?

I ask only for honesty and reason. If you have a problem with the review -- a review that is not even particularly critical -- you must address its content to add anything meaningful to the discussion.

...to be honest, on another day I most likely would have just shook my head and moved on. As a matter of fact, even as I was writting it, I was aware that it was not a good idea. Why? because I knew it would turn to this. however, my response was not as venomous as you are making it out to be. I guess it's a good thing I have saved the thread!

Yes, it is a good thing -- because you can compare it to the quotes I excerpted and see that they are not edited or taken out of context. You overreacted and did so in a hostile fashion -- one that reeked of insecurity about what others would think of "Ninpo" on the basis of a relatively insignificant review whose purpose was to evalute one modern Ninjutsu school.

First you have every right to do whatever you wish, review whatever you wish of course who am I or who is ANYONE to say otherwise!

Yet you did "say otherwise," Richard. When I tell someone, "You're not qualified to do this," I am telling them, "You have no right to do this." Now, you certainly can feel free to say that, too -- but you seem to think I should not view it as hostile, nor address it. I think my reply was entirely reasonable and more than civil, all things considered.

Also, I have no problem with David Gibb or what he is doing at all! He may even be a fantastic Budoka! But he is not qualified to represent Ninjutsu for SURE and Ninpo.

So now you are qualified to say who can represent all Ninjutsu? Does that not seem a bit of an overreach, Richard? As for "Ninpo," does the review at any time have anything to say about "Ninpo?"

You say you never use the term Ninpo. Fair enough. But you do use Ninjutsu! The two words are related by most people as is well known, Ninpo contains Ninjutsu. In a way, Ninjutsu is even a worse choice of words seeing as it has been very rarely taught to ANYONE.

Now you're playing semantic games, Richard. I suppose if I reviewed a tape produced by some "Combat Karate" school, I should feel obliged not to use the term "Karate" in order to avoid those Karateka who don't believe a modern "Combat Karate" school's practitioners are "qualified" to "represent" real Karate? Arnisador is completely correct and makes a very good point about this.

If you can find a quote in the review in which Dave Gibb claims to represent anything or anyone other than himself and his school, please bring it to my attention.

Also Modern Ninjutsu to me and everyone I talked to does not sound like "made up hodge podge Ninjutsu" but current Ninjutsu. What Mr. Gibb does is a composite style, he says based about 40% on Bujinkan bujinkan is 60% Budo not Ninjutsu, so one must ask, why an art, (Mr. Gibbs art) uses the term Ninjutsu when maybe 3% if he's lucky is actual ninjutsu other than wanting a connection to the image of "ninja".

And how does my reporting of that fact constitute some affront to anyone's fragile sense of self-esteem in their art? A review is not an endorsement; it is an objective evaluation of a specific product.

My concern with this is not based on insecurity, although please feel free to think as you wish, instead, it is based on simply being tired of all the crap that hangs on the fringes of ninjutsu/Ninpo today.

Again, how does my reporting of what this particular school is do anything but show the school and the style for what it is, objectively? On the basis of information I imparted to you, you have now been able to make conclusions about the composition of the style and Dave's approach to it. You would not have that information had you not read the review. That is the purpose of articles such as these. They impart, honestly and objectively, information about something or someone.

There are so many side roads, distractions and false information for sincere seekers of actual Ninpo/Ninjutsu knowledge out there. We have people who say, Ninjutsu did poorly in the UFC. But, what do they base that on? Two people from Bob Bussy's group who DON'T DO NINPO/NINJUTSU! Although they use the name...

This is that insecurity of which I spoke, Richard, plain as day. "Why, someone might think my art is not effective if they read discussion of someone else's Ninjutsu style!"

To the average person, they don't know, if they seen that UFC, then hear of genbukan or bujinkan etc.. They connect the two which is too bad. In addition we have Ashida Kim, Ron Duncan, Carlos febres Rick tew, Frank Dux etc... All of whom advertise heavey ninjutsu/Ninpo all of whom have nothing to do with it, but to the general public, they don't know, so they will base opinions on these peoples actions and abilities.

So we should never speak of these things and these people in any way? We should not want to know what they do and how they do it? We should respond with hostility and insecure overreaction whenever we do see these things discussed?

The feeling of that statement is that this strike is not effective. That's fine, but when you asked david and he said it is to hide a weapon. This shows he doesn't understand why he does that strike.

So what? To what, exactly, are you objecting? I gave Dave Gibb the chance to resond to my criticism because it gives him the chance to defend what he's doing in the face of that criticsm, making for a more balanced and informative review. If he then reveals that he does or does not know what he is doing, the review has done its job. The reader can make this judgment individually and leaves the article more informed about this particular school and instructor.

If you're worried, as yo useem to be, that this is going to be extrapolated into some blanket judgment about your school and your training, that's really your problem.

This is why I wish people would let people who KNOW the art make videos on the art.

Who's going to "let" them? Who'se going to judge and stop anyone?

You want to see real Ninjutsu/Ninpo get Sensei Tanemura's Goshin jutsu videos from BAB, if you see something on there that raises a red flag, ask a qualified Dojo-Cho of genbukan for an explaination.

What makes you think I would not want to see "real" Ninjutsu? If anyone within the Bujinkan or Genbukan wants to send me something to evaluate, I'd be very pleased to have the opportunity. I reviewed Dave's tape because he sent it in response to an open solicitation for materials to review. If I do get the chance to review such material, I would give the sender the same opportunity to respond to any questions I might have as I would give to anyone else.

So overall, as I have admitted, I should have let it go.

After reading your post, I think I understand even less what it was you should have let go, Richard. To what, specifically, do you object? That the Bujingodai is a "modern" Ninjutsu school? That I was critical of aspects of the tape? That Dave Gibb didn't impress you with his explanations? That I asked for the explanations in the first place? That I had the audacity to do the review?

Really the whole thing although being a pet peeve of mine (made up Ninjustu) was nothing to get all worked up about.

No, it wasn't. Substantive feedback would have been more productive.

What I feel bad about is that I was not really trying to attack you in any way, maybe some things I wrotes sounded a bit harsh, I am sorry, I guess I just would have wished you went to the source Tanemura/Hatsumi instead of a fringe side effect art.

My review was not intended, and was not presented, as a definitive statement about Ninjutsu in general. As I said, I will gladly review any material from "the source" if said "source" would like to send it. I would welcome having you do just that.

I can understand your being upset and I am sorry. I did over react.

I wasn't upset then, Richard, and I am not upset now. If any of my response to your post sounds a bit, well, sharp, this is not because I am angry, but because I believe in standing behind what I write.

 

[Makoto-Dojo]

Like I said,

sorry. Getting invloved was poor judgement on my part. I over reacted.

regards,