What are your thoughts on knee on the back of the neck.

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CB Jones

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Because they are all expert witnesses testifying to their opinion. The more experts with different opinions the easier it becomes to create doubt.

Remember the defense will also bring their version of Dr Baden to refute.

It is normal for pathologist to report multiple contributing factors and not give a definitive cause. Don't make it about the ME report.....you want to focus on the defendants actions. Do you want the jury focusing on medical jargon and opinions from multiple pathologists.....or focused on the officers actions?
 

JowGaWolf

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Article from January 9th, 2020
Parents of Teacher Stabbed to Death Can Pursue Lawsuit over Medical Examiner's Suicide Ruling
"A Philadelphia judge has ruled that the family of Ellen Greenberg, a teacher who was found dead with 20 stab wounds, can move forward with a lawsuit against the city Medical Examiner’s Office to remove from the record suicide as her official cause of death."

Article from Dec. 12, 2017
It's time to abolish the coroner
Two San Joaquin County, Calif., medical examiners have resigned in the past two weeks, alleging that Sheriff-Coroner Steve Moore pressured them to change their autopsy results for deaths in police custody.

"The two doctors allege the sheriff labeled certain deaths as “accidents” rather than “homicides” to shield from prosecution law enforcement officers who were involved."

Nov 9, 2010 Medical Examiner Questioned. Showing the same thing that that I was talking about. The ability to ask the examiner how they came to certain conclusions.

Dec. 6, 2017
Medical Examiners In America: A Dysfunctional System.
"More than 1 in 5 physicians working in the country’s busiest morgues — including the chief medical examiner of Washington, D.C. — are not board certified in forensic pathology, the branch of medicine focused on the mechanics of death, our investigation found."

"In many places, the person tasked with making the official ruling on how people die isn’t a doctor at all. In nearly 1,600 counties across the country, elected or appointed coroners who may have no qualifications beyond a high-school degree have the final say on whether fatalities are homicides, suicides, accidents or the result of natural or undetermined causes."

"another concern raised by the academy is that coroners often are closely aligned with law enforcement agencies."


Now here's how everything ties into why you should always was check the work.
Shortly after the family’s autopsy findings were announced, the Hennepin County medical examiner released its own findings, also concluding that the manner of death was homicide. The county attributed the cause of death to “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.”

I'm still waiting to read a copy of the full autopsy report which hasn't been released yet to my knowledge.

From NPR
"In charging documents released last week, prosecutors said that preliminary results from an autopsy "revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation."

However the new report from the medical examiner did not include such language."
 
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CB Jones

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Interesting. Out of curiosity, How good is his track record for overturning original autopsies? When I say overturn, I'm referring to his influence on Judges, Juries and the outcome of trials.

He didn't overturn any of them....in the OJ trial he helped create doubt for OJ...I believe he claimed that the murder took to long for OJ to have committed.

The Phil Spector trial his testimony was ruled in admissible

Michael Brown case his report was just used by the media and family's claim that Brown was murdered.

Jeffrey Epstein - he claims Epstein was murdered....that's unproven.


The Phil Spector case was the worst. His wife was an attorney for Spector and the day of the trial Dr Baden claimed to have jad an epiphany to what happened and he and the defense surprised the prosecution with Baden's new theory that was not included in his report. That is why it was ruled inadmissable.
 

JowGaWolf

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Because they are all expert witnesses testifying to their opinion. The more experts with different opinions the easier it becomes to create doubt.

Remember the defense will also bring their version of Dr Baden to refute.

It is normal for pathologist to report multiple contributing factors and not give a definitive cause. Don't make it about the ME report.....you want to focus on the defendants actions. Do you want the jury focusing on medical jargon and opinions from multiple pathologists.....or focused on the officers actions?
Ok. I see what you mean know
 

Buka

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You would be amazed what people in cuffs can do. I was amazed a few times how fast some people could be cuffed hands behind their back, in the back of a patrol car and get their hands/arms from the back to the front. You knew it was going to be on at that point.

Yes.

I used to do a demo to trainees and cadets where I’d be cuffed, behind the back obviously, and put in the back of a cruiser. I’d be out of the cuffs and have my hands back behind my back in less than sixty seconds. I think my quickest was twenty five seconds.

And one time, here on Maui back in the nineties, I was cuffed for real by Feds and placed in the back of their SUV. It was a mistaken arrest on their part, they cleared it up fairly quickly. But when they got to me I just handed them their cuffs, actually said some things I almost regret...almost.

They had to let me go, they had no grounds for arrest, and I was pissed, having previously been a FLEO.
 

jobo

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You would be amazed what people in cuffs can do. I was amazed a few times how fast some people could be cuffed hands behind their back, in the back of a patrol car and get their hands/arms from the back to the front. You knew it was going to be on at that point.
i wouldnt be amazed at all, some people are indeed amazing, though very few of them, if most people could do it, it wouldn't be amazing

that said,hands from back to front isnt that difficult, even i can do that,
 

oftheherd1

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That has no wrist lock in it, but I suspect you're remembering someone doing it with a nikkyo lock, which seems to be farily common. Add the wrist lock, and it's the arm bar with a reverse wrist I was referring to.

About 1:27 there appears to be a wrist lock, not so strong perhaps, but looks like it bay be on the wrist until there is more control as the technique continues, until the person is more under control. Also, I see a subsequent grab to the elbow that looks like it could be a pain compliance move.

Now, since he doesn't mention either of those as part of the technique I may be way off base. What does you experience suggest?
 

gpseymour

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About 1:27 there appears to be a wrist lock, not so strong perhaps, but looks like it bay be on the wrist until there is more control as the technique continues, until the person is more under control. Also, I see a subsequent grab to the elbow that looks like it could be a pain compliance move.

Now, since he doesn't mention either of those as part of the technique I may be way off base. What does you experience suggest?
There is a pain pressure point within easy reach when doing the technique that way. It’s not all that reliable, even compared to other pain points, but it’s easy to get to. If you actually lock the elbow hard on the way down, that’s likely to hurt more than the pressure point. As to the wrist, they tend to grab at the joint (when not doing the nikkyo lock) which makes ancillary locks unlikely. However, if the grip slips to the hand, ancillary wrist locks are a solution to the slack.
 
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Bruce7

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That report is...sketchy... The underlying conditions of hypertension and heart disease aren't likely to have been the proximate cause of death. They'd likely contribute to it, but the consensus around here is that it's quite unlikely he would have died from those conditions had he not been suffocating.
One thing I think needs to be considered. The images I've seen show 3 officers holding him down. We cannot tell from those images how much weight any officer was applying, but I'd say it's entirely possible that the suffocation was caused by the officer on his back, compressing his chest.

I agree 100% with your post
 

punisher73

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As to the original question, I have been with our department for over 23 years. In that 23 years, it has NEVER changed that you should ever put your knee on someone's head/neck. There are a couple moves while securing an arm for cuffing with the person on their stomach that you put a knee on their shoulder until the cuffs are applied and even then there are ALWAYS specific instructions to be careful of putting you knee on their neck/head.

Also, in more recent years it has always been taught to move the person to a sitting position after they have been proned out on their stomach to avoid positional asphyxiation.

What happened was just wrong...PERIOD.
 

JowGaWolf

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Looks like all 4 are charged with a crime and the 3rd degree murder charge is now 2nd degree. Found this after reading the autopsy report.
 

jobo

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Looks like all 4 are charged with a crime and the 3rd degree murder charge is now 2nd degree. Found this after reading the autopsy report.
its easy to throw charges about, to try and placate the discontented, lets see who is charged with what when it gets to court and what they are convicted of
 

JowGaWolf

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its easy to throw charges about, to try and placate the discontented, lets see who is charged with what when it gets to court and what they are convicted of
yeah but it's a step in the right direction and I'll take that. Gotta start somewhere. If they only did it to placate the discontented, then they don't get it . They don't understand the gravity of what is going on. People are beyond he "sacrificial goat." The protests have become much larger than that one incident.
I don't think it will die down because there are people that are willing to continue to fan the flames.
 

jobo

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yeah but it's a step in the right direction and I'll take that. Gotta start somewhere. If they only did it to placate the discontented, then they don't get it . They don't understand the gravity of what is going on. People are beyond he "sacrificial goat." The protests have become much larger than that one incident.
I don't think it will die down because there are people that are willing to continue to fan the flames.
its not my culture, im an outside observer, but this, deaths and riots, do seem to happen with regularity every year or so

if the last lot of protests didnt change anything, there i ino reason to suppose we wont be having very much the same conversation this time next year

im not sure how they stop it to be honest, deaths in custody are inevitable, no one is telling these guys to kill people, im sure they have been told to try not to,,, but they still carry on roughing people up. they do it here, your not getting arrested with out being knocked about unless your extremely compliant and even then

this is a particularly blatant case, im sure they can get a conviction, though possible not murder 2 and possibly not the other three police,

that doesnt seem to be a likely outcome based on my limited knowledge of american law, rather people grandstanding. the american justice system is far more politicised than the uk one. various mayors and other public figures would be told to shut up, to ensure a fair trial, a lack of shutting up could result in courts action against them or the trial falling apart later

will that stop the next one ? dont know
 
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dvcochran

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Nashville had a protest last night. 5000-6000 people walked down Broadway and 2nd Avenue. About as many whites as there were black. No violence and a lot of positive interaction with LE and downtown leadership.
That is a protest. I am proud of this community and our state.

@JowGaWolf , I do not agree with the "sacrificial goat" reference. This is exactly where the line begins to blur. We are all in agreement that the officer(s) violated the law. There is a fairly strict and due process that has to be followed from this point forward. But the 'sacrificial goat' reference just proves that some people will never be satisfied.
Too many people have no idea why they are doing what they are doing other than the fact that they have a 'taught-in' disposition that there is a race war. Too much of the black community is spending WAY too much time keeping the pot stirred. Until this community comes together and decides to move forward, realize that we ARE all equal, and stop pushing the false agenda of oppression, nothing will ever change. In this day and age blacks and whites are equally yoked. It is really that simple.
So what is all the marching about? Other people died in altercations about the same time but you hear nothing about it. Had Mr. Floyd been white we would have heard nothing about it.
Law enforcement as a whole, as a model, as an idea is sound and necessary. Because we are a free society there will always be things seen as imperfect. Departments such as Minneapolis clearly have issues that run deep. In every facet of life, work, society, and race there are bad people. So pitting one side against the other solves nothing. Long overdue cultural change is needed, not the dumbing down and weakening of the pillars that help our society function.
This socialist agenda that is trying to defund law enforcement scares the hell out of me.
 

CB Jones

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The cops involved were wrong....the protestors are wrong....the looters are wrong....the rioters are wrong....the politicians using this to gain public favor is wrong.

Will just be glad when this is over.
 

geezer

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its not my culture, im an outside observer...

Outside Observer? Well ...sort of. Being a British subject, you are something of an outside observer, ...but in a broad sense all of this is still connected to your culture. Our American legal system, as well as the Canadian and Australian systems, etc. are all descendants of British common law. So whereas we vary greatly on many specifics, the overriding legal principles ....indeed, our "legal cultures" are closely related ...like cousins, if not siblings. At least compared to many other nations legal systems, those not descended from British common law.

And then like us, you have a diverse population. A friend of mine argued the other day that one could not compare our diverse American population with "Britain, Sweden and other ethnically homogenous European countries." Significantly, he as not travelled abroad! LOL. My own impression was that London rivals NYC for diversity! And from what I've heard, your ethnic and religious minorities, and "people of color" have plenty of grievances against "systemic racism" and unequal treatment on your side of the pond as well.

So while perhaps more of an "outside observer" than I, for example, I still think you have a pretty good grasp of the situation. ;)
 

Gweilo

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Restraint techniques are taught to those who most need them, I have taught restraint and control techniques to prison officers, the overwhelming instruction is CONTROL, once controlled the adversary, is in a position, that structure or control can be maitaianed by applying force to remain in control, or pain or discomfort, to remain in control, in order to subdue, or CONTROL a problem, or suspected problem, on lookers can find these techniques uncomfortable to view, but in this case, the officers involved, abused their position of CONTROL, and leave themeelves open to prosecution of the values they are supposed to uphold, and rightly so, restraint is all about CONTROL, loose that, and its no longer restraint.
 

Gweilo

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But here lies the biggest problem for the offending officer, pictures are appearing on the net, of his martial arts training with promenent Chinese arts instructors, he may of lost control during the heat of the situation, but his ma background will smear the real truth of intent or mistake.
P,s im British
 
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