What an Interesting Bunch.....

[Keil Randor]

Been gone a while. PC died. Bumming time on a friends’ while we set up a server tonight.

While away, seems like things got jumpy. We got a whole bunch of new folks here who hit the board like the Rangers at Utah. Interesting crowd. 50% technique, 50% attitude. Lot of good info in there….way too much attitude. First of all, "Welcome". Always nice to have more folks here to share the knowledge.

I did some research on this "Datu Worden" guy. He runs a group called "Renegade JKD" yet has no formal training in "JKD"...but its the "Principals” of it that count, not the training.

Kelly Worden believes his Natural Spirit is what Bruce Lee’s jeet kune do was meant to be.

Right. So, if I know the “Principals” of Iaido, I can form a group called Renegade Iaido, even though what we do is not Iaido? I don’t think so. I think understand what his intention is, but the name is misleading, especially since he doesn’t have any certification in actual JKD. And yes, I know what it says on his website.

Everyone with these guys is a “Brutha”. You all train with Terry Bolea? J

My big question to the bunch of you, is why? Why does almost every post from you somewhere in it seem to include the comments “Datu never lied to me”…”Datu doesn’t lie” …etc. What next? I understand loyalty, but the next step seems like kool-aid time.

Things started to calm down, then more “defensiveness”. I don’t believe anyone here questions if the guy is a talented martial artist. His track record speaks for itself. I personally don’t understand why the defensiveness on your parts. You come in here, daring Kaith to ban the lot of you, all the time “Datu” this and “Datu” that. Where did you all get the idea that you would immediately be bounced for speaking up? As the only guy to (so far) be bounced from Martial Talk, I want to know where we got the rep. For being hard asses?

Hey guys, let Mr. Worden speak for himself. He is obviously aware of this board, and unless Mr. Rearic is transcribing phone calls, seems to understand computers well enough to handle e-mail. (not a shot guys..I know CEO’s who are so close to the PHB from Dilbert to be scary). Have him sigh up. I’m sure his depth of knowledge would greatly enrich us all, without having to be relayed.

MartialTalk is a good resource. It’s a little sparse in some areas as the initial launch was thru the Modern Arnis people. We are starting to grow, and the fact that the knife forum is jumping now is good. Always wanted to know how to make my own. Could definitely use more people on the sword forums, and the CMA. Stop being so defensive, and please? Less name dropping.

 

[Pugsly]

Well put. Less name dropping more facts.

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by Keil Randor
I did some research on this "Datu Worden" guy. He runs a group called "Renegade JKD" yet has no formal training in "JKD"...but its the "Principals” of it that count, not the training.

Right. So, if I know the “Principals” of Iaido, I can form a group called Renegade Iaido, even though what we do is not Iaido? I don’t think so. I think understand what his intention is, but the name is misleading, especially since he doesn’t have any certification in actual JKD. And yes, I know what it says on his website.

Datu Worden has training in JKD under Professor Leonard Trigg and Guro Ted Lucaylucay [RIP]. As well as Taky Kimura and possibly some more people.

Is he certified by Inosanto, no, not that I know of.

Everyone with these guys is a “Brutha”. You all train with Terry Bolea?

Everyone in the Filipino Martial Arts is my "Brother." It's pretty common in these circles really...

My big question to the bunch of you, is why? Why does almost every post from you somewhere in it seem to include the comments “Datu never lied to me”…”Datu doesn’t lie” …etc. What next? I understand loyalty, but the next step seems like kool-aid time.

He doesn't lie but has been accused of it in a very polite way at times. If you don't like the fact people have addressed that, I'm sorry.

As for the "Kool-Aid" reference, surely you jest. We could do without the Jim Jones/People's Temple Connection, OK?

You come in here, daring Kaith to ban the lot of you, all the time “Datu” this and “Datu” that. Where did you all get the idea that you would immediately be bounced for speaking up? As the only guy to (so far) be bounced from Martial Talk, I want to know where we got the rep. For being hard asses?

That never happened the way you just typed it out. There was a misunderstanding as to Kaith's intention to squelch things and that's it. There was no challenge to ban. We already covered that, why do you bring it up now? Seems as if you want a flame festival. I don't.

In closing...

I have done my best to take my time to contribute to the Knife Arts Forum here. The reason I did that is to make sure people knew that I was not merely trolling this board in support of Datu Worden.

I think if you look in that particular forum, you will see that is 100% accurate and I did not merely go in there and drop a few posts. It is involved.

I actually enjoy exchanges of information more than anything.

All of that and I did not even ask you if you were really Rowdy Roddy Piper as your Avatar and Signature Line [from the John Carpenter movie, "They Live..." right?] would suggest...

Another great line in that movie was when he put those sunglasses on that allowed him to see the Aliens through their human disguises...

A woman was "grooming herself" and he remarked, "That's like pouring perfume on a pig."

 

[Keil Randor]

Originally posted by Don Rearic


Datu Worden has training in JKD under Professor Leonard Trigg and Guro Ted Lucaylucay [RIP]. As well as Taky Kimura and possibly some more people.

Is he certified by Inosanto, no, not that I know of.

I think most people would like to know that their instructors have had traditional style training. By this, I mean, he's gone thru the system. Tested for rank, knows the material, etc. Even if he no longer claims the rank, as he runs his own system, it would still be nice to know "from whence he came".

Everyone in the Filipino Martial Arts is my "Brother." It's pretty common in these circles really...

Ok, I can relate. Nice concept.

He doesn't lie but has been accused of it in a very polite way at times. If you don't like the fact people have addressed that, I'm sorry.

I haven't seen where he was accused "here". Maybe on other forums yes, but I don't recall seeing it here, until you folks brought it up. Mr. Wordens reputation was not being maligned here.

As for the "Kool-Aid" reference, surely you jest. We could do without the Jim Jones/People's Temple Connection, OK?

Y'all seem very dedicated to him...As we all are to our own Masters. It was a jest..Plus, some of your group seemed a little thin-skinned. Sometimes, you leave an opening...

That never happened the way you just typed it out. There was a misunderstanding as to Kaith's intention to squelch things and that's it. There was no challenge to ban. We already covered that, why do you bring it up now? Seems as if you want a flame festival. I don't.

I summarize. I've been gone a while, needed a recap. No flames, please. Been there, done that. My apologies if I mis-summarized.

In closing...

I have done my best to take my time to contribute to the Knife Arts Forum here. The reason I did that is to make sure people knew that I was not merely trolling this board in support of Datu Worden.

I think if you look in that particular forum, you will see that is 100% accurate and I did not merely go in there and drop a few posts. It is involved.

I actually enjoy exchanges of information more than anything.

I've read through the knife forum and found your posts and those of your colleagues to be very informatve. You guys bring some good information and experience to the table. Its only that sometimes, it seems a bit, intense? And that perhaps is being misconstrued?

All of that and I did not even ask you if you were really Rowdy Roddy Piper as your Avatar and Signature Line [from the John Carpenter movie, "They Live..." right?] would suggest...

Another great line in that movie was when he put those sunglasses on that allowed him to see the Aliens through their human disguises...

A woman was "grooming herself" and he remarked, "That's like pouring perfume on a pig."

The nice thing about the Net is that you can be anonymous if you like. You can portray a different person than you are. Fat becomes thin, short becomes tall. Or..you can just be yourself. I'm me. Why the Piper avatar? Simple. Roddys a legit tough guy. Been stabbed a couple times, shot once. Started wrestling in the "real" styles at 16. He's been through some rough times, and keeps on ticking. Says it like he sees it. I admire that. Am I him? Nah. I wish...But I do not look as good in a kilt. You got the ref right. Great movie. Roddys got alot of great quotes. Here's another insight: Keill Randor (note first name spelling) is a character in a book series I enjoyed as a kid. The Legionaries of Moros were the most perfect human fighting machines in the known universe. They took martial arts as a total way of life. Teamwork, training, warfare, etc. Am I that good? No. But... I strive to be someday. They both have a meaning to me, just as a logo, or hero, or tradition does to all of us.

Piper as my avatar. Is that a bad thing? I mean, it could be a Pikachu.

Peace.
:asian:

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by Keil Randor
I think most people would like to know that their instructors have had traditional style training. By this, I mean, he's gone thru the system. Tested for rank, knows the material, etc. Even if he no longer claims the rank, as he runs his own system, it would still be nice to know "from whence he came".

That's true in alot of Systems and like I said, I don't believe Datu Worden has been certified through Guro Inosanto. But I think close associations...training for over a decade now...you know where it is going.

How long does it take to transfer what was a Concept more than a System?

That would be for others to decide. I think many have made that decision and found it to be rewarding. I also think that you have a good point, to be fair. I just think it is better applied to other, more Traditional Systems.

I haven't seen where he was accused "here". Maybe on other forums yes, but I don't recall seeing it here, until you folks brought it up. Mr. Wordens reputation was not being maligned here.

I think some of the comments were very subtle, but there was a direct accusation of exaggerating a connection with the Military. There was a request made for a phone number...no one called. Etc,. I could go on, but why? It is in his statement.

Y'all seem very dedicated to him...As we all are to our own Masters. It was a jest..Plus, some of your group seemed a little thin-skinned. Sometimes, you leave an opening...

True enough, but I don't like the jungle any more than bitter almond flavored Kool-Aid.

I've read through the knife forum and found your posts and those of your colleagues to be very informatve. You guys bring some good information and experience to the table. Its only that sometimes, it seems a bit, intense? And that perhaps is being misconstrued?

I think all too often, people do not take "knife" seriously. That's a problem in alot of Martial Arts Systems. If it seems intense, all of the discussion, it would probably be more jovial if people understood the realities of everything. I don't know...

We don't sit around and worship knives or death or any of that sort of thing though. Hell, I like comedies more than "action" pictures for the most part. Better to laugh than to cry.

Piper as my avatar. Is that a bad thing?

No, actually, I like him and liked that movie. It's not a very popular movie and it was sort of neat to see the quote and the pic... It had the "Wisconsin Element" to it, i.e., a little cheeseypoof. But it was a funny movie and an interesting movie...

I mean, it could be a Pikachu.

Yeah, yeah... [stroking goatee to look wise...] Pikachu... :barf: Pokemon, right? My Son watches that stuff. "Pokemon," sounds like a Jamaican Porno. :erg:

 

[arnisador]

I am traveling so I may not be able to respond to any replies promptly. My Internet access is unreliable.

Originally posted by Don Rearic

I think some of the comments were very subtle, but there was a direct accusation of exaggerating a connection with the Military. There was a request made for a phone number...no one called. Etc,. I could go on, but why? It is in his statement.

This is MartialTalk legend now, but it is not what happened. Progressive posted about Mr. Worden:

He is the chief instructor for 1st Special Forces Group and has been selected to produce a Combatives Manual, which will be the base document for Martial Arts Training for all U.S. Army Special Operations Forces.

I responded:

I don't believe that this statement can possibly be correct as stated, even if "chief instructor" is interpreted as chief CQC instructor. It strikes me as a considerable exaggeration.

See my post with postid 4014 in the Who's Who in Modern Arnis? thread. I was challenged to call; by the time a phone number was produced, at some delay (for reasons explained to me by Progressive via PM), things had died down on the board and as I explained to Progressive via PM I thought it best to let things lay. There seemed to be no need for further controversy. I stressed repeatedly but unsuccessfully that I believed the statements were largely accurate but that, based on my experience with the DoD, could not be fully correct.

Please Note,I stated that it was my belief that Progressive's comments were inaccurate and likely were exaggerated. This is a far cry from stating that Mr. Worden is lying unless Mr. Worden is "Progressive".

Mr. Worden's students are very vocal in their support of him and I do not believe it would be fruitful to carry this matter further in this forum. Indeed, this forum exaggerates the harshness if that is what one wants to see or the acceptance if that is what one wants to see as there are no other cues (inflection, body language, etc.). I too suspect that in person this would never have been such as issue. This type of medium can easily push people to take and defend positions much more extreme, one-sided, or pedantic than they would in a one-to-one conversation. I like this medium myself but that is the way this medium works.

I say again, I think it would be best to let things lay. This isn't at all fruitful and both sides--how unfortunate that that term must be used!--are being backed into entrenched positions. There's no need for it. If me calling Progressive would truly help then I will do it but I say again that letting things drop seems the wisest thing to do. Let's move on.

 

[Progressive]

"Please Note,I stated that it was my belief that Progressive's comments were inaccurate and likely were exaggerated. This is a far cry from stating that Mr. Worden is lying unless Mr. Worden is "Progressive"."

Does this mean that you were calling me a liar? My PM still stands...Pick up the phone.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

1 point to address here, at this point:

We already covered that, why do you bring it up now?

Comments like the above are often mentioned when someone who isn't on a forum on a regular basis, suddenly pops on, and reactivates or references an issue that may have been resolved previously. This isn't directed at Don, but I'm using his quote only as an example here.

I'm on the forums several times a day. Many of us are on at least 1x a day. Others like Keil and Jaybacca pop in as they can. Something thats old news to us, is new to them. Keep it in mind next time someone rehashes old news. Maybe point them at the thread where it was resolved.


There are other issues here, but I'm letting them lie for now...I need sleep.
:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Progressive

Does this mean that you were calling me a liar?

No. It means that I believe it likely that you have exaggerated. There is a difference. You will recall that you wrote:

He is the chief instructor for 1st Special Forces Group

I felt that this was, as I said at the time, something that could not possibly be accurate.

My PM still stands...Pick up the phone.

I honestly don't believe that that would help. When I was challenged to call I stated that I would be willing to do so but when you finally produced a number to call I felt that the issue had died down and that it was best to leave it. I still feel that way, expecially since Mr. Hartman and Mr. Worden apparently will be discussing matters in person soon. The best way to settle the matter, if it must be settled, would be to bring a "To whom it may concern" letter signed by a commissioned officer with direct knowledge of these matters stating that Mr. Worden:

is the chief instructor for 1st Special Forces Group and has been selected to produce a Combatives Manual, which will be the base document for Martial Arts Training for all U.S. Army Special Operations Forces.

In such case I will promptly apologize for doubting you.

I really don't think that this is helpful, fruitful, or professional. Furthermore, I have very little emotion invested in it--I would prefer to move on from discussing Mr. Worden and begin discussing other things. I am frankly tired of this bickering. Perhaps we could agree to disagree? If not, perhaps it could be moved to PM for the sake of the rest of the board?

 

[Cthulhu]

Arni,

Could a letter of appreciation, such as this one given to Paul Vunak by the U.S. Navy:

http://www.fighting.net/images/navyseals.jpg

be suitable for you?

Cthulhu

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Could a letter of appreciation, such as this one given to Paul Vunak by the U.S. Navy:

http://www.fighting.net/images/navyseals.jpg

be suitable for you?

Such a letter would clarify matters. Note that Mr. Vunak held no title such as "Chief Instructor" or "Chief CQC Instructor" or the like and it is this issue that caught my attention--the official bestowment of a title. I am sure that Mr. Worden has many letters such as above--a form letter filled out by the S-1 for the CO as a display of gratitude and as evidence that the event occurred (note how the first paragraph clearly spells out the facts)--but I am curious as to by what authority Mr. Worden was granted an official title. That's most unusual. In fact, I was wondering precisely if a series of letters such as this and the actual events they represent and the apparent fact that this makes Mr. Worden the de facto chief instructor of the Special Forces group at Ft. Lewis were being exaggerated into an official-soinding title.

I'm sure that Mr. Worden teaches them often; I am less sure that an authorized representative of the U.S. government granted such a title. That would be most unusual in my experience.

 

[Don Rearic]

Just remember, that "Letter of Appreciation" is the finishing note on what was a contract. Sifu Vunak did not get that for hanging out with them.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Don Rearic
Just remember, that "Letter of Appreciation" is the finishing note on what was a contract. Sifu Vunak did not get that for hanging out with them.

Agreed, and I have no doubt that Mr. Worden also has an official and compensated relationship with the government.

 

[Cthulhu]

Could this all simply be confusion as to the use of the word 'chief'?

If the word is meant as 'primary' or 'main', meaning it isn't an actual title, then it would simply mean that Mr. Worden is the chief (little 'c') instructor for yadda yadda yadda... Not an official title, just the main instructor for such-and-such group.

Now, if the word was meant as a given title, as in 'Chief (capital 'C')', then it would mean that Mr. Worden had been bestowed an official (meaning he'd be contracted by the DoD as such) U.S. Gov't title. This would make him the Chief (notice the capital 'C') Instructor (capital 'I') of yadda yadda yadda...

So, could this simply be a semantics issue?

Cthulhu

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by arnisador
Agreed, and I have no doubt that Mr. Worden also has an official and compensated relationship with the government.

Well, what are you guys saying then? This is very "Internet," I mean, we're on the Internet, but this sparks of just silliness.

You have a Sgt. in the Special Forces Unit Datu Worden trains, he has given you the number, it's obviously an issue again. Call him.

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Don Rearic
Just remember, that "Letter of Appreciation" is the finishing note on what was a contract. Sifu Vunak did not get that for hanging out with them.

Kind of my point, really. It showed official recognition for services rendered to the U.S. Navy. Of course, from what I hear, Vunak also has the lumps and scars to go along with the letter

Of course, a copy of the contract itself would remove any and all questions, but somehow I think that Vunak (and the Navy) are not likely to put that on the Web for all to see.

Cthulhu

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Don Rearic

You have a Sgt. in the Special Forces Unit Datu Worden trains, he has given you the number, it's obviously an issue again. Call him.

It is indeed an issue, but not to me--I honestly don't care. As I said to Progressive in PM, it's best to leave it be in my opinion. It's obviously a contentious issue and I don't believe that this rancor has been good for the board. I suggest that all concerned drop the matter. I suspect a phone call would leave us once again at loggerheads--documentation would be required to settle this. But it's not worth the effort of settling. Let's move on.

I mention again that I am traveling and may not be able to respond in a timely fashion to any replies.

 

[Don Rearic]

I think I get the picture now. And everyone else does as well. Sorry. Can't help coming away from this one being bummed out.

I thought it was an issue. I now see that when the answers are figured out, the questions are changed.

I mean no disrespect in the matter, but that's the appearance of it.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Don Rearic

I thought it was an issue. I now see that when the answers are figured out, the questions are changed.

The questions haven't been changed. The discussion has been so heated that it's become clear that it isn't helpful to continue discussing the matter.

I am a bit distressed by your comment about the questions changing however. This started with Progressive's post postid 4012 and my reply postid 4014 in the Who's Who in Modern Arnis? thread. In that very first reply I asked:

If Mr. Worden has been contracted to produce the document specified then surely it was bid out as per federal law. Can someone cite documentation to this effect?

Instead I was challenged to call Progressive by Progressive (postid 4019) and by you (postids 4031,4048).

I asked for clarification of the title (postid 4037). In postid 4056 I finally asked:

Who on the base is a disinterested official who would be knowledgeable about this matter and willing to speak to me about it?

Surely Progressive is not disinterested. This question was never answered, and so I did not place the call.

Some time later Progressive PMed me with his number and his regrets for the delay in responding. As this was not the disinterested individual I had asked for in response to challenges to call, and as things were calmed down, I responded that I thought it best to drop the matter.

I want to be clear about a few things:
1.) I raised the issue of documentation in my initial reply--this is not a change as you suggest;
2.) I only requested a phone number in response to repreated challenges to "Call Ft. Lewis" and never suggested that I thought this would be a good way to address the issue;
3.) I suggested that it would be best if I spoke with a disinterested person rather than someone with a stake in the matter, and such a person was never identified to me.

I don't know how Mr. Worden came to understand that he was being called a liar on the Internet--nothing like this ever happened. At worse this is an issue between Progressive and myself, complicated by the many voices speaking up on all sides of it. If it must be continued it should be by he and I via PM.

The questions have not changed, Mr. Rearic. Too mnay voices are speaking over too many days and the details are quickly becoming lost. I ask you to please review the cited posts before disagreeing with me on this.

Finally, this issue is of very low salience to me and is causing too much heat and no light. I would suggest to Kaith that the thread be locked after Mr. Rearic and Progressive have had a chance to reply to my post if they so desire.

 

[Progressive]

Letter from the S-1? So my word is in question. Okay, I guess that you would rather state, in so many words, that I am a lying rather than make the call. I gave you my cell phone and the number to the S-3 SGM at 1st SFG(A). You seem content to continue to sit at your keyboard and question my character. I won't send out any letter...if you don't have enough courage to use a telephone and find out for yourself. I did not inflate my statements. I did not make a mistake. You questioned the truthfulness of my statements and I gave you the information to follow up, you didn't. I say what I mean and (as the saying goes) I mean what I say. I have trained with and fought along side the best soldiers in the world and never once was my word or character called into question. I doubt seriously that you are of the same cloth as my comrades in arms. As a matter of fact, our word is our bond and once given is considered a pact. No questions, because if there is a question its life and death. I had thought that the martial arts community was much the same, but you have proved me wrong. I will not pursue this any further online, but do look forward to meeting you in the future. My father told me when I was growing up that no matter how poor you are, no matter how destitute, if you have integrity you are 1000% better than the richest man that has none. You have shown that you have none! Like I said there is NO problem in looking me up. Everyone at group knows me and were to find me. If you are ever in the Seattle/Tacoma area, please, drop me a line. BT AR