Who's Who in Modern Arnis?

[Progressive]

Note: Let me state that I am not Politically Correct and if your feelings are easily hurt I suggest that you go on to the next “Vanilla” post and read no further…I hope that I am not banned for speaking out on this or physically threatened ; )

I would like to wade in on the matter of who’s who in Modern Arnis. I do not consider myself a Modern Arnis player, but I do have over 24 years of martial arts experience and have trained with several of the Masters in the Philippines in four different styles. I have also studied JKD, American Boxing, Thai Boxing, BJJ, etc. etc. Just so that you know I have some knowledge base to speak from: I was the Chief Combatives Instructor for USASFDK (Korean Special Forces), Martial Arts Coordinator for 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne), Fort Lewis, Washington and am currently the Bakbakan International representative for Washington State and owner of Progressive Martial Arts Inc. But, enough about me, if that’s not good enough for you; you don’t want to hear what I have to say anyway. See the note above.

As I said, I do not consider myself a Modern Arnis player (since I have just been studying for the past year), but I just have to wade in on the political garbage that I have read on this site. There are pretenders to the crown that would not be running their mouths if the Professor was still alive.

I have seen a question and answer session about Datu Kelly Worden. It was disingenuous to say the least! Professor Presas promoted Kelly Worden to the rank of Datu some 13 years ago. His ability to conceptualize, connect the systems, and his innovations “within” Modern Arnis led Prof. Presas to publicly state that he, Datu Worden, was the #1 Datu in America. If you ask Datu Worden he will tell you that he is #2, and that Datu Shishir Inocallo (being elevated before him) is #1 in the hierarchy.

I have also seen posts that Datu Worden’s style is something other than Modern Arnis. I can assure you that Datu Worden is, to his soul, a Modern Arnis practitioner and gives all the credit to Professor Presas for his exceptional abilities. At a benefit seminar for Professor Presas last year Worden told the attendees that he believed that the system should pass to Professor’s sons and that they had his total support. I have never heard Datu Worden speak of his “niche” in Modern Arnis, just the welfare of the art as a whole and Professors legacy in the continuation of the art. Believe me if you want to hear of Datu Worden’s accomplishments you have to ask one of his students. You won’t ever hear him bragging about himself or spreading the news about his many awards or honors.

I saw two Masters of Filipino Martial Arts, Roland Dantes and Christopher Ricketts; publicly acknowledge the skill and innovation that Datu Worden brings to Modern Arnis.

Professor Presas drew from all and gave to all. That’s what is special about Modern Arnis! I have seen a wide variety of styles, variations on techniques, and even subtle differences in anyos. Modern Arnis is, as another post said, what professor said it was!

Someone made mention of a possible taping of the anyos for Modern Arnis Practioners. Datu Worden has already done this. He has 25 videotapes that are currently published along with one that was co-produced with Master Roland Dantes. He has developed and patented the Impact Kerambit and no less than six companies currently carry his knife designs.

He is the chief instructor for 1st Special Forces Group and has been selected to produce a Combatives Manual, which will be the base document for Martial Arts Training for all U.S. Army Special Operations Forces. When you talk of contributions to Modern Arnis, or who is and who isn’t a Modern Arnis practitioner, I would suggest that you do a little homework before you make your announcements. His contributions to the art with the introduction of anyos for the staff, interpretation of those forms and application of the techniques were enough to cement his standing in Modern Arnis. Does that sound like Datu Worden wasn’t being Active? You be the judge…

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Progressive

He is the chief instructor for 1st Special Forces Group and has been selected to produce a Combatives Manual, which will be the base document for Martial Arts Training for all U.S. Army Special Operations Forces.

I don't believe that this statement can possibly be correct as stated, even if "chief instructor" is interpreted as chief CQC instructor. It strikes me as a considerable exaggeration.

If Mr. Worden has been contracted to produce the document specified then surely it was bid out as per federal law. Can someone cite documentation to this effect? It will be a matter of public record of course.

We have been most fortunate to have a panoply of Kelly Worden supporters appear all of a sudden on this board. The nature of this post contradicts those who would claim that Mr. Worden's experiences with the military have not been exaggerated. I note also that no one has questioned Mr. Worden's skills--quite the opposite--yet they are constantly being defended. I would be defensive too if I had the unenviable task of justifying a statement like the one quoted above.

 

[Progressive]

Arnisador, I am a little slow so you might need to help me out here. I think that you are saying that I wasn't being entirely truthful in my description of Mr. Wordens title, duties, etc. with 1st Special Forces Group. This is obviously due to quite a bit of ignorance on your part so I will give you a few more details. Oh, also, your information on contracting is false. Although, all contracts must be processed through central contracting they are NOT all put up for bid. As a matter of fact "Sole Source Contracts" are written all the time and are not competitive bids. This is true even for bids over 100K.

I was the contracting officer that contracted Datu Worden. The Commander, U.S. Army Special Forces Command, after inspecting our program (which, by the way was judged to be the best in SOCOM) and meeting Mr. Worden, directed the 1st SFG(A) to develop this manual and a photographer was assigned to Datu Worden who is in charge of designing the program and producing the document. This is being done as part of his official duties as Chief Combatives Instructor for 1st SFG(A). Now...if you took the statement, that Mr. Worden is the Chief Instructor, out of context and believed that I was talking about something other than Combatives, well...that’s something more than ignorance, but I am sure that isn't the case.

I am not sure what you are getting at with regards to CQC. I don't know what that stands for. I guess during my 24 years in Special Forces that I haven't come across that acronym. If you are talking about a combative course, then SF has none. We conduct Combatives Training during the Q-course, about 8 hours worth, and then it’s decentralized out to the Groups. Some of the Groups didn't even have a program until the Commander United States Army Special Forces Command, BG Toney saw ours and order everyone in SF to mirror our program.

As for your misstatements on contracting...at first I thought that this was a personal attack, but then I just realized that you were ignorant of the contracting process and Special Forces. I won't go into it in detail, but bottom line, the Combative Manual has been assigned as part of his normal duties as a contractor to 1st SFG(A). Also, Datu Worden has been contracted for the last 2 years, which can be verified simply by picking up a phone and call 1st SFG(A) at Fort Lewis. I hope that this information will help you out.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Actually, a true "whos-who" would be nice... if we can just state facts (verifiable) and avoid the political BS that creeps into such things.

Course, it also helps if we all play nice too.

peace
:asian:

 

[Progressive]

Your right Kaith...I just don't react well to propaganda.
When I see a Manufactured Q&A session on whether Datu Worden is really Modern Arnis or not, well, It just upset me.
It was plain to see that it was intended to create doubt as to whether he was authentic or not. As far as Professors legacy I think that it's secure. The art is strong enough to survive the insults of personality.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, but isn't CQC the acronym for Close Quarter Combat. I thought that this was a military term. If not I've seen it being used in the "Reality Combat World" alot. Hock Hochheim has a magazine on the topic http://www.hockscqc.com/magazine/index.htm and Emerson Knives has a blade the CQC-7.

Progressive wrote;
This is obviously due to quite a bit of ignorance on your part so I will give you a few more details. As for your misstatements on contracting...at first I thought that this was a personal attack, but then I just realized that you were ignorant of the contracting process and Special Forces.

I think you need to calm down. On this forum we have had many debates. Many on Modern Arnis are between Arnisador, Mao and myself. But, when everything is said and done, we are friends. We don't need to agree with each other but we still get a long. We do not try to insult or hurt each others feeling. I think that your comment to Arnisador of being ignorant was uncalled for. If he is wrong or misinformed, then point it out in a civil manner. I think that the only ignorance that was proven here is your own.

 

[Progressive]

You're telling me to calm down and then talk about me being ignorant. Ignorance is the absence of knowledge. Stupidity is knowing the difference and still making the same mistake. I never called anyone stupid, just ignorant. If that is a problem then maybe you might relook your reply. If this is your forum then maybe you might want to post something that outlines your personal likes and dislikes and I will be able to work around them. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander, so they say.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

What about CQC?

 

[Progressive]

Not an acronym that we use. CQB Close Quater Battle refers to use of weapons. So yes you are mistaken.

 

[Mathusula2]

When I see a Manufactured Q&A session on whether Datu Worden is really Modern Arnis or not, well, It just upset me.

If you read the thread correctly, it was started by a newcomer who was confused about a couple of titles -- nobody was a target. Furthermore, nobody disrespected the Datu at all; his students overreacted and became very defensive of him, as you are doing right now. Maybe you should take a deep breath and re-read the thread, nobody attacked anybody, but there was a serious amount of defending going on.

 

[Don Rearic]

As I said in another thread, Kelly is currently and weekly, training U.S. Special Forces. That is one group in his home State of Washington.

He has trained a Ranger Unit, I cannot remember which but I'm sure they were local to that area, as well as U.S.A.F. Combat Controllers which often find themselves in hairy situations.

The Man, "Progressive," came on here and he told you what the deal is and you question it because you wish to question because on the surface, all appears milk and honey and underneath...bitter almonds.

You complain about the use of the word "ignorance" used in the proper manner for the discussion, after supporting calling this Man a liar?

I'm befuddled.

Call Ft. Lewis and find out for yourself, if you are interested, if not, don't. But don't call a Man or even hint that this Man is lying to you until you check it out. He told you who he was, call him and see for yourself. This is fast developing into what it was feared to be to begin with.

 

[Black Grass]

Progressive,

You do need to light up a little. (From on Bakbakan brother to another ). If you are who I think you are Masters Topher and Rey have mentioned you (Ed?). In fact we all need to lighten up a little. I don't think anyone is attacking anyone really. Let's face it we are dealing with a less then perfect medium. Its kinda of hard to know intent unless we endup writing a novel. ( As i sit back in a calm relaxed expression taking a sip of javanese coffee.)

In all the posts about Kelly Worden I don't think anyone questioned or attacked his ability/intention. (At least thats the way I read it).

The only two questions that seem to have come out is:
- His activity in Modern Arnis proper, as in going out and about with the Professor hosting/attending/teaching seminars/camps.
- Kelly Wordens art does not look like Modern Arnis, which is a fair statement I think. He teaches stuff that the Prof. didn't teach in seminars like staff and a blade system.

Neither of these things question Kelly Wordens commitment or loyalty to the Prof. or Modern Arnis. or at least that is how I read it.

Regards,
Black Grass

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by arnisador
I don't believe that this statement can possibly be correct as stated, even if "chief instructor" is interpreted as chief CQC instructor. It strikes me as a considerable exaggeration.

If Mr. Worden has been contracted to produce the document specified then surely it was bid out as per federal law. Can someone cite documentation to this effect? It will be a matter of public record of course.

We have been most fortunate to have a panoply of Kelly Worden supporters appear all of a sudden on this board. The nature of this post contradicts those who would claim that Mr. Worden's experiences with the military have not been exaggerated. I note also that no one has questioned Mr. Worden's skills--quite the opposite--yet they are constantly being defended.

I would be defensive too if I had the unenviable task of justifying a statement like the one quoted above.

On the subject of calm discussion and of "calming down..."

What is quoted above with particular attention to italicized text, is fairly "in your face" and in a very real way, hinting that the Poster [Progessive] is lying at worst-or using hyperbole at best-to get a point of support for Datu Worden across to people.

That's not the case, anyone can choose to believe what they wish, however. Check it out before you hang a B.S. Title over it. If you cannot believe someone from the 1st SFG, then who will you believe? A Coast Guard Rep?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Progressive
I think that you are saying that I wasn't being entirely truthful in my description of Mr. Wordens title, duties, etc. with 1st Special Forces Group. This is obviously due to quite a bit of ignorance on your part

This may well be so, and I do appreciate the distinction you draw between ignorance and stupidity. What I was saying was that your statement could not be accurate. I did not mean to imply that you were lying.

Oh, also, your information on contracting is false. Although, all contracts must be processed through central contracting they are NOT all put up for bid. As a matter of fact "Sole Source Contracts" are written all the time and are not competitive bids. This is true even for bids over 100K.

Sole source contracts are relatively rare but I grant that this is a possibility.

The Commander, U.S. Army Special Forces Command, after inspecting our program (which, by the way was judged to be the best in SOCOM) and meeting Mr. Worden, directed the 1st SFG(A) to develop this manual and a photographer was assigned to Datu Worden who is in charge of designing the program and producing the document. This is being done as part of his official duties as Chief Combatives Instructor for 1st SFG(A). Now...if you took the statement, that Mr. Worden is the Chief Instructor, out of context and believed that I was talking about something other than Combatives, well...that’s something more than ignorance, but I am sure that isn't the case.

Can you comment on the status of the title 'Chief (Combatives) Instructor' in this context? Is it provided for by law or regulation, or is it an honorary title given to someone who technically is a contractor? Who authroized the granting of this title or filling of this billet (as appropriate)? Can you also comment on in what sense these are 'official duties' as you say? Is this in the sense that he has been contracted to provide certain services--if so 'official duties' seems a bit of an inflated description.

I am not sure what you are getting at with regards to CQC. I don't know what that stands for. I guess during my 24 years in Special Forces that I haven't come across that acronym.

How odd! It's quite standard--you may ask any West Point graduate about CQC (not to be confused with CCQ, 'cadet in charge of quarters') and their "City Streets" training. According to the U.S. Army, this is part of the Rangers' training and the term has been used at least as recently as the 1990s; see http://call.army.mil/products/ctc_bull/01-9/jenkinson.htm for example:

Since their organization under the U.S. Army Special Operations Command (USASOC), Rangers have attended the Special
Operations Training (SOT) Course, a course that trains Close Quarters Combat (CQC) techniques. SOT, offered only to
USASOC units and staffed by the best of the best in close quarters fighting, teaches the latest short-range shooting skills,
breaching and barrier penetration techniques, and room-clearing techniques.

(See also http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/tc/7-98-1/chap1.htm for another use of the same term.) Note that CQC includes more than just empty-hand and knife-fighting skills though those are a part of it. (At West Point the Advanced CQC course has been known to focus on the machete for example.) Perhaps the explanation is that you have not yet attended the Special Operations Training (SOT) Course. The term is used in a different way by the Corps of Engineers.

I have no doubt that your statements regarding Mr. Worden are correct in the large--that he helps train them and is producing a manual intended for their benefit--but I strongly suspect that what you have said is not fully and technically accurate. Perhaps you meant to simplify because you assumed your audience here was not familiar with the military and its terminology.

I won't go into it in detail, but bottom line, the Combative Manual has been assigned as part of his normal duties as a contractor to 1st SFG(A).

I'm sure that this is accurate, and that's great. Good luck to Mr. Worden on this project.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Progressive
When I see a Manufactured Q&A session on whether Datu Worden is really Modern Arnis or not, well, It just upset me.

I don't think it was manufactured--many of us honestly do not know much about Mr. Worden. We are, to use your term, ignorant. The question was, who are the Modern Arnis datus? A list was provided. Mr. Jornales, for example, is a Modern Arnis datu who is not truly a Modern Arnis practitioner. Evidently Mr. Worden is a true Modern Arnis practitioner. I accept this, but please believe me when I say that many of us truly did not know. Apply the distinction between ignorance and stupidity to this situation please.

I find the suggestion that it was all "manufactured" a bit ironic given the sudden explosion of Kelly Worden supporters here, all defending him despite the fact that the only comments about his skills that were made prior to their arrival fell into one of two categories: "I've seen him, he's very good" or "I haven't seen him, but I've heard that he's very good". As to Modern Arnis, given that his introductory web page at:
http://www.kellyworden.com/Default2.htm
lists N.S.I. and JKD in large letters then "single stick Modern Arnis" (emphasis added) and a number of other arts in smaller type thereafter, I think that those of us who wondered if he was still strongly connected to the art could be forgiven. The page before it at http://www.kellyworden.com/ does list Modern Arnis and N.S.I. and JKD and I have seen the pictures cited that show him visiting the Professor shortly before his death and I say again, now that I am informed I accept that Mr. Worden is still a Modern Arnis practitioner. But I must agree with the person who suggested that his supporters protest too much.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Don Rearic
If you cannot believe someone from the 1st SFG, then who will you believe? A Coast Guard Rep?

Are you seriously suggesting that if an anonymous person posts to an Internet webboard that they are/were in the Special Forces that I should believe them?

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by arnisador
Are you seriously suggesting that if an anonymous person posts to an Internet webboard that they are/were in the Special Forces that I should believe them?

As much as I should believe that "Renegade" is Datu Hartman or anyone else? Ya think?

In other words, there has to be a certain degree of trust or you better shut the board down now as it serves no real purpose that would not be better served by an E-mail Chain like Escrima Digest.

Other than that, I knew certain people were going to show up and I know another member of that group or another SF Group that has trained with Datu Worden. It's pretty much common knowledge in that area.

Besides being more active on this board, with all due respect, who titled you Grand Inquisitor?

And, did you make the phone call to Ft. Lewis? West Point nomenclature is dandy, but did you call Ft. Lewis, or would you assume that Datu's reach is such that we have Western Bell switching under control as well to divert calls?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Don Rearic
As much as I should believe that "Renegade" is Datu Hartman or anyone else?

But this could be verified by e-mailing [email protected], the WMAA's official address. How might I verify that "Progressive" is a Special Forces member if I chose to do so?

And, did you make the phone call to Ft. Lewis? West Point nomenclature is dandy, but did you call Ft. Lewis, or would you assume that Datu's reach is such that we have Western Bell switching under control as well to divert calls?

Can you be more specific? Fort Lewis is a big place, especially since they dumped much of Fort Ord's folks into it. Who on the base is a disinterested official who would be knowledgeable about this matter and willing to speak to me about it? "Call Ft. Lewis" is a bit too vague I'm afraid. I'd be happy to pay the charges if you or someone else would give me a phone number and POC.

I will state again, I believe that Mr. Worden trains members of the military and I am quite prepared to believe that he is writing a manual for them, but the details seem exaggerated.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

[Admin Mode]
Folks, I'm gonna say it one time.... Play nice.

To the newcomers, and all, we are a friendly forum....there is a link to the rules on the main page.

I'm not too up to date on military terms, ranks, locationes, etc, other than to want a Bradley for xmas. Too busy digging out this artic mess called Buffalo right now to really care, or keep more than a casual eye on things here.

In case anyone wants to know who I am... I'm the poor shmuck who runs this forum. We have a couple of good moderators here, and will be adding at least 1 more shortly....But I'm the guy who hosts it, and pays the bills.

This is directed at everyone, old and new. This is a nice forum. Play nice or get the F--- out. I'm too frozen right now to be more 'tactful'

Thank you.
[admin mode off]

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
[Admin Mode]
Folks, I'm gonna say it one time.... Play nice.

To the newcomers, and all, we are a friendly forum....there is a link to the rules on the main page.

I'm not too up to date on military terms, ranks, locationes, etc, other than to want a Bradley for xmas. Too busy digging out this artic mess called Buffalo right now to really care, or keep more than a casual eye on things here.

In case anyone wants to know who I am... I'm the poor shmuck who runs this forum. We have a couple of good moderators here, and will be adding at least 1 more shortly....But I'm the guy who hosts it, and pays the bills.

This is directed at everyone, old and new. This is a nice forum. Play nice or get the F--- out. Take the pissing contests to email or PM.

[admin mode off]

Hey, this is the deal. This is factional, apparently. Factions often have certain hostilities. I don't see anyone in here getting nasty enough to even warrant this and I've moderated a few forums myself and currently do so now. What you are doing is actually going to cause more of a split because it is rather heavy handed. For example, the only person to use any real profanity towards anyone has been you.

Now, you can most certainly ban me from this site for saying that, people can make a value judgment on that action if you choose to do so.

There was a statement made than Datu Worden is doing "X." Someone wants to question that but they want someone to do the leg work for them, whatever-whatever, he can pick the phone up himself.

I don't think it is proper to chase the tail about it. Datu Worden is contracted to do precisely what has been stated, training and manual and it seems that he has to be taken down a notch. If you choose to quell people who are defending him...then this place will merely be seen as a sandbox for one faction.

Everyone should take a step back before that happens.