WC sticky hand and Taiji push hand integration

Kung Fu Wang

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If you have trained both WC and Taiji, when you train

- WC sticky hand, do you try to ignore your Taiji push hand knowledge?
- Taiji push hand, do you try to ignore your WC sticky hand knowledge?

Will you keep your knowledge separate, or will you try to integrate both. If you have integrated both, what will you call that training?

We don't hear anybody who shared his WC sticky hand and Taiji push hand integration experience so far. Why?

Your thought?
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Let's start from the single arm training first. Why there is difference here?

WC single sticky hand - your right arm touch your opponent's left arm.

WC-single-sticky-hand.jpg


Taiji single push hand - your right arm touch your opponent's right arm.

Taiji-single-ph.jpg


If fighting, most of the time, your right arm touch your opponent's right arm.

Bruce-Lee-switch-hand-1.gif
 

EdwardA

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The bottom clip is one of my favorite's of all time. I studied it in slow motion. He momentarily grabs the guys forward hand with his secondary or (left) rear hand. Hard to see. He was one of the first that we know of that modified WC. Maybe Ed Parker too, but Parker added a lot of other things to create Kenpo.

You can see some interesting things in this one. I didn't watch in now, low on data, but I've seen it many times and knew how to find it.

 
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EdwardA

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I did look at most of the video in the other post. I'll say this first. In the TC I learned there are structures, even confines you must stay within, so not to over extend yourself. Knee doesn't pass further than the foot....as one example. In WC the "fixed bent elbow position". This is a short list but, they work together. As far as defining a specific move or set of moves with text. That'd be very difficult.

The video is showing some very basic circles, how to move with them while retaining the underlying structure and taking advantage of either the inside line or outside line.

When I developed the sticky hands that combined the two, I looked at it a bit more like dancing. At first it's a bit stiff, but once you get used to movement that could also include the more straight line approach of WC and remain within the structural confines, it becomes more natural.

If you want to pick out one detail, I can look at it or the differences between it and a WC version, but it would take time and "connection data" that I don't always have. ...then trying to discuss the specifics in text would be difficult. But I would like to continue this vane of conversation.
 

EdwardA

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I was looking at your video in mind. These two systems are very much alike. If you took these push hands, tightened the circles just a little bit and dropped your elbows closer to your sides...then adjust the hand positions just enough to get the same control....the bring you feet a little closer and pointed your toes slightly toward each other (this is for more movement), then added some straight line and center line domenance, you be getting close. You'd begin to understand it.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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He momentarily grabs the guys forward hand with his secondary or (left) rear hand. Hard to see.
Bruce Lee was using the general CMA principle "switch hands".

- A punch right hand.
- B blocks it with right arm.
- A uses left hand to take over B's right arm blocking,
- A's right hand continue punch.

Starting from the Taiji single push hand.

- A's right wrist touches on B's right wrist.
- A uses left hand to push on B's right elbow joint.
- A's right hand then punch on B's head.

You can't do this in WC single sticky hand because:

- it's your right arm deal with your opponent's left arm, and
- your left hand cannot reach to his left elbow joint.

This is the 1st simple example that "switch hands" training is hard to do in the WC sticky hand training.

So how to solve this integration issue? IMO, WC single sticky hand has to include right arm contact right arm training.

Another example of "switch hands" that starts from right arm contact right arm.

Brendan-switch-hand-1.gif
 
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Xue Sheng

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I have done Chi sau and I have done push hands. I have also done push hands against Wing Chun guys doing Chi Sau, and it was cool, we both learned something. And for the record, Yang style, single had push hands is basic training. You then go to double hand and with double had you get 3 step and 4 corner as well as multiple "DOUBLE" had training drills and it doesn't matter which of your hands/arms touches the other persons hand/arm.

Ultimately you end up using what you know best, be that Chi Sau or push hands or something else
 

EdwardA

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Yang style, single had push hands is basic training. You then go to double hand and with double had you get 3 step and 4 corner as well as multiple "DOUBLE" had training drills and it doesn't matter which of your hands/arms touches the other persons hand/arm.

This is an important point, though I wouldn't ever know which style it came from. I wasn't taught a specific style (except in TC) but I think it's very important to understand that the hand positions are variable. Lots of things are variable as long as you maintain the underlying structure, posture, etc. This also applies to WC.

Also, you can't completely integrated the two systems. A little, but use both depending on the move by move circumstance.

In my sticky hands, for straight line movement I used closer to center line WC and for more circular, I used more TC. Change between the two, but modified each to be more similar to the other....so switching one to the other wasn't as much of a change.
 
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