Vertical vs. Horizontal punching

[MJS]

http://www.savateaustralia.com/savate essays/bare-knuckles to modern boxing.htm


I came across this article and thought that it was pretty interesting. What are everyones choices for throwing a punch?

Personally, I'd rather throw something that would be less likely to injure my hand, such as an elbow, but if I had to choose between the 2, I'd go with the vertical.

Mike

 

[kenpochad]

I came across this article and thought that it was pretty interesting. What are everyones choices for throwing a punch?

Personally, I'd rather throw something that would be less likely to injure my hand, such as an elbow, but if I had to choose between the 2, I'd go with the vertical.

Mike

i like to throw 3/4 i think thats what its called ,
its in the middle of the two. that way your bones in the forarm are lined up with
the knuckles .do you think that this is true ?. and i two like to use the elbow

but one of the two it would be the vertical

 

[MJS]

i like to throw 3/4 i think thats what its called ,
its in the middle of the two. that way your bones in the forarm are lined up with
the knuckles .do you think that this is true ?. and i two like to use the elbow

but one of the two it would be the vertical

There may be a slight difference between the 3/4 and the vertical, as the elbow is jutting out compared to being down as with the verticle.

 

[7starmantis]

Hmm, I think the two punches are different, not neccesarily better or worse. I do have a few problems with the article as well. I dont agree that a verticle punch is stronger for the arm, or better because of skeletal alignment. That is an argument often raised in this discussion. However, the skeletal structure is the same from a verticel punch to a horizontal. The difference is "weakness" in the alignment is on a horizontal plain or a verticle one. How can changing the direction of the weakness do away with the weakness altogether? The article said:

Punching with a vertical fist provides for two things – fewer places in the arm for energy to “get lost” (like a bent elbow or wrist)

However, if your punching either verticle or horizontal with a locked elbow for "maximum energy" your going to find that the energy is going to find your locked elbow joint and actually release there in the shape of an injury. Having a bent wrist is incorrect in either of the punches. Just turning your punch verticle isn't going to do away with bad habits.
Also:

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]With a vertical fist, the entire arm is extended in one line from the shoulder through to the fist. The elbow is tucked beneath the arm as opposed to jutting out, and the wrist is kept completely straight

[/font]Your elbow shouldn't be "jutting out" in either case. Any "jutting" will occur on a verticle plain just as it would on a horizontal one. The truth is to throw a proper punch on either plain, not that just by changing the orientation of your punch you will start throwing proper ones.

Just my 3 cents
7sm

 

[shaolinDave]

Nice article. Punching this way(verticle) is also pretty common in some styles of kung fu. I know bruce lee used it.

 

[Jerry]

It's a really nicely written piece on boxing and pugalism, though the punching critique's are not generalized enough that I'd try to wrap them around systems with drastically different punching (say "Systema" for example).

 

[kenpochad]

i was thinking some on this. i like the vertical when iam inside and going to the body. but when i throw a jab i use a horizontal punch, i dont fell like my shoulder comes up to cover my jaw if i throw a vert. punch like a jab i dont fell like it covers as much
i dont now if it just becouse i ve always go horiz. on jabs and that is what i am use to

 

[Andrew Green]

Ok, here's my take:

Twisting the forearm at the elbow gives bad alignment. But twisting at the shoulder gives you a horizontal punch that IS aligned properly at the forearm. Also protects your jaw line with your shoulder which is a good thing (Like your looking down your arm)

So it is not a horizontal vs Vertical issue, it is a twisting the forearm or not issue. Whether your fist ends up vertical or horizontal after that depends on how the rest of your arm and body behave durring the punch.

 

[rutherford]

I also prefer not to punch, and am actually concerned about the amount of punching I do in training in order to set up a partner's practice.

But, I punch differently depending on the situation. My basic is a vertical straight up the centerline. But with my knee on somebody's chest for a Ground n' Pound, I'm going to throw horizontals. In neither case is my forearm twisted.

I've actually played with the 180 rotation punch a bit, but just because I think I should know how to do it.

 

[arnisador]

There's a place for both. I was trained in Isshin early on and adopted the vertical punch, but I now prefer a regular old cross.

 

[punisher73]

I think it boils down to personal preference (assuming mechanics are correct). One of the main arguments against the horizontal "twist" punch is that the forearm bones overlap so that only one of the bones is taking the brunt of the force.

My question is does anyone know of ANYONE who has ever broken their forearm using a twist punch because they punched so hard that the structure of the arm couldn't take it?

As a follow up, how many people know someone who has sprained a wrist or something attempting a corkscrew punch and had the person move in as they were rotating?

 

[MJS]

Also:
[/size][/font]Your elbow shouldn't be "jutting out" in either case. Any "jutting" will occur on a verticle plain just as it would on a horizontal one. The truth is to throw a proper punch on either plain, not that just by changing the orientation of your punch you will start throwing proper ones.

Just my 3 cents
7sm

Thats interesting and I didn't even notice until I looked at the pic. right under his statement. Its showing him locking his elbow during the punch..a big no-no.

Mike

 

[Floating Egg]

I would like to see a scientific study regarding this.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

the problem i have with the article is the point about the elbow jutting out as well. the mechanics of pronation and supination in the elobow are such, that the base of the ulna stays in place while the radius moves around it. you can test this by putting your elbow on a stationary surface and turning your fist back and forth. as for the medial and lateral rotation of the brachium in regards to throwing a horizontal fist, a properly aligned and mechanically sound punch with a horizontal fist will see the brachium medially rotated and the punch will arrive at its target off center with the elbow bent, while it is indeed important to have a good skeletal structure for stability, it is equally important to have good muscular structure. if you place your hand on your deltoid when you throw a horizontal punch, you will that there are muscles at work helping to stabalize the joint. do this when you are throwing a vertical punch and you will find that only the anterior portion of the deltoid is at work and thus making the SITS (rotator cuff) muscles work harder stabilizing the joint. this is also why throwing an elbow on the horizontal plane is so devastating, you have the rotation of the axial skeleton and all the muscles of the back, abdomen and legs, chest and arm working in concert to create a stable structure and mechanically sound movement during the course of the movement, with a vertical fist you dont have nearly the amount of the body at work.
while both have their place, for a truly powerful punch i would use a horizontal fist.

 

[searcher]

Having been influenced by an Isshin-ryu instructor that I once had I teach both ways of punching. I find it useful to have both for varying situations. The key I find to preventing injury with either is to get good wrist alignment and a good tight fist. They both have their advantages and weaknesses. The vertical tends to be faster, but does not have the added power of full tricep engagement. The horizontal has more power but tends to be a little slower. I have had tro condition my hands and body to be able to use either one very well. I have found that the use of boxing style punches are fast and wonderfully powerful, but unless you condition your hands you can mess up the skin on your hands from the power of them.

 

[bignick]

I've always been taught and looked at it as a range issue, a fully extended punch at farthest range is the horizontal fist, but with targets closer than that you will have trouble getting full rotation so you a medium range would use a 3/4 turn and a close in target would use the vertical punch.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

The observation of the elbow jutting out to the side, what I call "floating the elbow," is valid. This does tend to attenuate the power of a punch by taking the arm out of the axis of the punch. Many schools strive to correct this problem by having their students strive to keep the elbow in close to the ribs when punching. Some don't, and we see some pretty flippy punches.

The notion of the forearm bones being in line with the bones of the wrist in the vertical punch and not twisting as they do in the pronated (horizontal) punch is...I think...unsupported. I've heard people say this twisting binds the ligaments of the arms, causes the bones to cross...all this leading to loss of power and structure.

Sounds good, but I'm not sure its true. It'd be testable in part, I suppose, by having people perform a bench press with a standard bar and a modified bar that allows partial supination (I've seen them), using a Smith machine perhaps for added safety. The problem I see with this test is that in a normal bench the elbows are away from the body with the upper arms at right angles to the torso. This is hardly a horizontal punch structure. It'd be neat if someone could device a bar that would allow the lifter to keep the elbows in and do a full or partial pronation of the wrist as the bar was lifted. I can visualize this...but can't imagine anybody going to that extreme.

I also disagree with the notion that one can hit with the full fist when throwing the vertical. One could hit with the full fist with the horizontal as well...but many styles don't advocate this, prefering to put the energy into the index and middle knuckles and sparing damage to the smaller and more flexible bones behind the ring and pinky fingers.

The vertical punch has one very clear advantage in close in punching, of course. That's why people who snap the wrist over in a horizontal punch only do so near the end of the extension. Its a long range punch. The vertical punch can be either long range or short.




Regards,


Steve

 

[Flatlander]

It'd be neat if someone could device a bar that would allow the lifter to keep the elbows in and do a full or partial pronation of the wrist as the bar was lifted.

Maybe I'm not reading this right, but would a dumbell not work for this?

I've always been taught and looked at it as a range issue, a fully extended punch at farthest range is the horizontal fist, but with targets closer than that you will have trouble getting full rotation so you a medium range would use a 3/4 turn and a close in target would use the vertical punch.

Actually, I can shoot out a vertical fist jab much farther than any other punch - its all in the rotation of the shoulders.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Maybe I'm not reading this right, but would a dumbell not work for this?
Actually, I can shoot out a vertical fist jab much farther than any other punch - its all in the rotation of the shoulders.

Bars versus dumbells:

You could use a dumbell, but because of the lack of a bar there is greater difficulty stabilizing the weight on a horizontal plane. Dumbells are excellent for working out, but for testing max strength a bar would be required. That said, I'm not sure even a barbell would be a valid test because of the positioning of the elbows. If one kept the elbows in and "down" with either fist position and used a modified Smith machine, we might be able to get an idea of relative strength for each of the hand postures...or we could poll a bunch of orthopedists and see what they say.

Rotation of the shoulder:

When I hold my arm out to the side and turn my palm down from an up position, the shoulder rotates slightly. The reach of the arm doesn't change. Close your palms into fists and try it, rotating them over and back from vertical to horizontal.

Try rotating your shoulders and touching the wall with your vertical fist using maximum extension and reach. Once you've touched it keep it in contact with the wall. Now pronate your fist to a horizontal punch. Nothing changes.

The reach of the punch here is either from the twisting of the hips, which brings the shoulder forward, or by throwing the shoulder forward by flexing the pec and stretching the scapular muscles. Both of these add more reach depending upon a person's body proportion and flexibility. Either of these can be accomplished with the fist in any position...provided the person attempting it has no injuries limiting range of motion.


Regards,


Steve

 

[still learning]

Hello, Very good thoughts on this topic. Will this be different for Hook punches to the face and body?

It seems the hook "Vertical" to the face may have a better chance of getting wrist broken or is it the "Horizontal" fist?

Punching a hook to the body? will the vertical fist be better?.......Aloha