Using Your Art

[MJS]

This isn't a thread to discuss what we should do prior to a confrontation, as we already know that answer. This is a thread to discuss using what you've spent years training in, and dealing with the results. Many times in discussion, both here and in RL, I get the impression that people are second guessing whether or not to defend themselves. Personally, that is the #1 reason why I train, for self defense, so while talking our way out is the usual first response, there comes a time when that does not work. As it was said in another thread, if it was that simple, then why bother training?

There was a story recently in the paper here in CT of a female LEO that was assaulted by the wife of another officer. The wife accused the LEO of some inappropriate things. She then proceeded to strike her numerous times. The female LEO who was off duty basically did nothing during this assault and later stated that she did that because she did not want to lose her job.

IMHO, if someone is physically assaulting me, I'm sorry, but I would not just stand there getting hit. Does the thought of time in court and all the other wonder things that come with the package enter my mind? Sure. However, my well being and the concern for the well being of someone that may be with me, is also on my mind. I'm not advocating excessive force, but what it takes to end the situation.

 

[LawDog]

I am not sure of the question so I will put out a short response for now.

The whole idea of training is not to think about the what if's, should I and the how far do I go thoughts. Your training has already taught you all these things. All of your training has programed your mind, much like a computer, with all of information that you will need. Turn off the thought process and let your training take over. You will know when to start, how far to go and when to end. No thought and no emotion will get you through everything you encounter just fine. It has worked for me in the street for the past 34 years.
:enguard:
Besides,
It is better to be judged by six than to be carried by six.
irateph3

 

[kidswarrior]

I am not sure of the question so I will put out a short response for now.

The whole idea of training is not to think about the what if's, should I and the how far do I go thoughts. Your training has already taught you all these things. All of your training has programed your mind, much like a computer, with all of information that you will need. Turn off the thought process and let your training take over. You will know when to start, how far to go and when to end. No thought and no emotion will get you through everything you encounter just fine. It has worked for me in the street for the past 34 years.
:enguard:

Ditto. Short and to the point.

 

[MJS]

Thank you both for your replies. I thought my OP was clear as to what the thread was about, but perhaps I can elaborate a bit more.

Reading thru some recent posts, it seems to me that the general concensus of some, is that while we train in the arts, we should never use our training, and if we do, we're going against some law.

I'm not advocating going out and looking for a fight. In that case, yes, we'd be abusing our skill. However, if someone is making threats to us, attempting to cause us physical harm, etc., then IMHO, I see nothing wrong with defending ourself.

As it was said by Lawdog, I'd rather by judged than carried.

Mike

 

[kidswarrior]

Thank you both for your replies. I thought my OP was clear as to what the thread was about, but perhaps I can elaborate a bit more.

Reading thru some recent posts, it seems to me that the general concensus of some, is that while we train in the arts, we should never use our training, and if we do, we're going against some law.

I'm not advocating going out and looking for a fight. In that case, yes, we'd be abusing our skill. However, if someone is making threats to us, attempting to cause us physical harm, etc., then IMHO, I see nothing wrong with defending ourself.

As it was said by Lawdog, I'd rather by judged than carried.

Mike

Yeah, I agree Mike. Didn't understand this was where you were going with the OP. Think the law in much of CA is that you can use reasonable force to stop an attacker. This means I can use my MA training if under physical attack. But I probably have to be more conscious than most people of how much damage is done--even if it's only one strike, kick, or throw. If I break s.th. with even that one move, as Bill Wallace says, he'll try to claim later I 'cheated' because of my training.

Bottom line is, I'm not going to let someone attack me or anyone with me. I just want to try to be cognizant of how much more damage I may do after 15 years of Asian practice (plus prior boxing, wrestling, military training, and some street nonsense), than s.o. without that training and experience.

True story of a master I know--elderly guy, too, and not very big. Two young men decided to rob him, and one swung on him to knock him down. This small, elderly MA 'merely' cross-blocked, and the one he engaged went down while the other ran away. That, to me, is the perfect scenario (and I bet the attacker still has that bruise!!). Now if the master had continued through a prescripted technique, he probably would have maimed or killed one or both of the attackers. Then he would have been judged by 12, and probably pretty harshly. This is not to say he wouldn't have been justified in using s.th. different from a block, such as a strike which pre-empted the other's punch. Just that he knew what his block would do, and used it.

Hope this is closer to what you had in mind.

 

[Drac]

I am not sure of the question so I will put out a short response for now.

The whole idea of training is not to think about the what if's, should I and the how far do I go thoughts. Your training has already taught you all these things. All of your training has programed your mind, much like a computer, with all of information that you will need. Turn off the thought process and let your training take over. You will know when to start, how far to go and when to end. No thought and no emotion will get you through everything you encounter just fine. It has worked for me in the street for the past 34 years.
:enguard:
Besides,
It is better to be judged by six than to be carried by six.
irateph3

Amen brother..You attack me off duty and you get hurt...I'd rather have an ugly trial than a beautiful funeral...

 

[morph4me]

Thank you both for your replies. I thought my OP was clear as to what the thread was about, but perhaps I can elaborate a bit more.

Reading thru some recent posts, it seems to me that the general concensus of some, is that while we train in the arts, we should never use our training, and if we do, we're going against some law.

I'm not advocating going out and looking for a fight. In that case, yes, we'd be abusing our skill. However, if someone is making threats to us, attempting to cause us physical harm, etc., then IMHO, I see nothing wrong with defending ourself.

As it was said by Lawdog, I'd rather by judged than carried.

Mike

It seems counterproductive to me to train for something and then not use your training at the appropriate time. I could already fight and defend myself before I took my first class, a side effect of having to do it so often as a kid. I started martial arts in order to become more efficient at it, then a curious thing happened, the better I got, the less I needed to use it, but my willingness to do what had to be done never changed. I would rather put my fate in the hands of a jury of my peers then in the hands of some lowlife with no regard for life.

My training gives me more options than I used to have. I used to have to go directly to attempting maximum damage to an attacker immediately, now I have the options of being less brutal if the situation doesn't call for maximimum response. I would feel bad if I had to use my training at this point, but I'd get over it. I can't be sure I'd get over the results of not using what I know in a situation that called for it.

 

[sholo86]

This reminded of a conversation I had with a co-worker after he found out I train in martial arts. He said to me "you know your hands are weapons right?" He even added to say "you know if you hurt somebody really bad, you can get sued or end up in court for assualt right? This is why I never really wanted to learn MA because your skills could be a limiting factor as to how much force you can apply for defending yourself. I protect what I love and if somebody wants to hurt me or my loved ones, I'll be beating and kicking down some major @$$es!"

Well, the way I see it, with or without martial arts training, you still end up in court for using excesive force and get charged for assualt even if the other person started the whole confrontation. The plus side of MA training is that you end up knowing when to stop before it becomes an assualt. Your training will tell you when you have gained the upper hand and its time for the law to step in. You have control of your emotions and not let it get out of hand.

Again, all of this depends on the circumstances and with your training, you'll know what to do.

 

[kidswarrior]

I could already fight and defend myself before I took my first class, a side effect of having to do it so often as a kid. I started martial arts in order to become more efficient at it, then a curious thing happened, the better I got, the less I needed to use it, but my willingness to do what had to be done never changed. I would rather put my fate in the hands of a jury of my peers then in the hands of some lowlife with no regard for life.

My training gives me more options than I used to have. I used to have to go directly to attempting maximum damage to an attacker immediately

How is it we share the same life story? :lol2: I'm with you completely.

The plus side of MA training is that you end up knowing when to stop before it becomes an assualt. Your training will tell you when you have gained the upper hand and its time for the law to step in.

This is how I see it, too. The Ma gives us the option of graduated levels of response, and training to choose the right level.

 

[jdinca]

The whole key to this is making sure your response is proportionate to the attack. If someone takes a swing at you and you break his arms, punch him in the throat, whatever, you put yourself at risk. If someone takes a swing at you and defend yourself and make sure he can't take another swing at you without a "devastating response", then you should be okay. I definitely wouldn't hold back because I was afraid of the legal consquences, nor would I so totally lose control of myself that I went overboard in my response.

 

[Dave Leverich]

Extremely well put jdinca.

 

[jdinca]

Extremely well put jdinca.

:asian:

 

[jks9199]

The whole key to this is making sure your response is proportionate to the attack. If someone takes a swing at you and you break his arms, punch him in the throat, whatever, you put yourself at risk. If someone takes a swing at you and defend yourself and make sure he can't take another swing at you without a "devastating response", then you should be okay. I definitely wouldn't hold back because I was afraid of the legal consquences, nor would I so totally lose control of myself that I went overboard in my response.

I'd only add...

And being able to articulate why what you did was proportional and appropriate.

If you keep your reactions reasonable to the threat, and can explain why they were reasonable... You'll almost certainly be OK. You may still get sued or arrested, but you'll probably come out of it OK.

 

[tellner]

Some general rules of thumb. I'm not a lawyer, so don't take this as legal advice.

Don't get into any fights that you don't have to.

If you do get into a fight don't stop as long as you're in danger.

If you're not in danger any longer stop fighting.

If you don't believe you're in danger of being seriously jacked up only open the small sized can of whoop-***.

If you believe it's safe to stroll away it's probably safe to run away.

In the eyes of the police flight tends to mean guilt. A lot of "good shoots" have become felony convictions because the shooter ran and didn't call the police.

If your back's to the wall or innocent life is in danger do what you have to do. That's what your training is for.

Be able to articulate what you did and why you did it.

There's no shame in being afraid. It's one of the most important legal standards for self defense. But it should be reasonable fear. Blind panic doesn't get you any points.

"Reasonable" will not be decided by a twelve MT readers with the mods as presiding judges. It will be decided by a dozen people who don't have jobs, don't get out much and couldn't think up a reason to get out of jury duty. The person in charge is a judge who spends his or her working life as G-d Almighty in the tiny universe that is the courtroom, surrounded by servants and protected from the possibility of harm. One lawyer - who probably hasnt' defended a legitimate self defense claim in years - is being paid to act as if you are pure as the driven snow. The other one is honor bound to believe you are the love-child of Satan, Hitler and the Boston Strangler.

So you really need to know what you did, why you did it and be able to explain why you had to do it.

Other things can make a difference. If you were dressed in Arsenal colors and were surrounded 100 drunken British Football fans wearing Manchester jerseys you can make a darned good case that you had to pull out the stops and that the submachine gun and machete (legality of carrying them aside) were no more than reasonable. If the other guys are bigger and stronger, if they outnumber you, if they are better armed than you, if you have good reason to believe that they are well-trained and/or experienced in violence, if you're physically impaired due to illness, if you're a woman and they are men if they're on better drugs than you are the equation can change.

An example we liked to use in our WSD classes was Grandma and Bubba. Grandma has made 87 trips around the cruel old Sun. She weighs one pound for every one of those years. Bubba is 300 pounds of muscle. He used to be the front four for the Cincinnati Bengals. Currently his job is carrying beer kegs (one-handed) for a brewery. His testicles are still shrunk to the size of BBs because of the heroic amounts of steroids he's done.

If Grandma has a fit of senile dementia and tries to hit Bubba with her walker he might be justified in holding her at arms' length until she gets tired.

If Bubba 'roids out and attacks Grandma she can probably get away with a little more. By "a little more" I mean that if she shoots him so full of holes that squirrels and small birds can nest inside his chest cavity the police are likely to say "Nice groups, ma'am. Do you need a ride home?"

[Unpaid plug] For the answers to these and other important questions I can not recommend Massad Ayoob's LFI-1 Judicious Use of Deadly Force highly enough.

 

[jdinca]

I'd only add...

And being able to articulate why what you did was proportional and appropriate.

If you keep your reactions reasonable to the threat, and can explain why they were reasonable... You'll almost certainly be OK. You may still get sued or arrested, but you'll probably come out of it OK.

If you're REALLY good, it will look like you were just defending yourself the whole time you're pummeling the bad guy.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The whole key to this is making sure your response is proportionate to the attack. If someone takes a swing at you and you break his arms, punch him in the throat, whatever, you put yourself at risk. If someone takes a swing at you and defend yourself and make sure he can't take another swing at you without a "devastating response", then you should be okay. I definitely wouldn't hold back because I was afraid of the legal consquences, nor would I so totally lose control of myself that I went overboard in my response.

That is true "Eye for an Eye" justice... moderation is the Key.
sean

 

[tellner]

It seems perfectly reasonable to me. You use the degree of force which is required to protect yourself. You don't use more, and you are not stupid enough to do less. How is that different than moderation?

 

[Juggernaut]

Some general rules of thumb. I'm not a lawyer, so don't take this as legal advice.

Don't get into any fights that you don't have to.

If you do get into a fight don't stop as long as you're in danger.

If you're not in danger any longer stop fighting.

If you don't believe you're in danger of being seriously jacked up only open the small sized can of whoop-***.

If you believe it's safe to stroll away it's probably safe to run away.

In the eyes of the police flight tends to mean guilt. A lot of "good shoots" have become felony convictions because the shooter ran and didn't call the police.

If your back's to the wall or innocent life is in danger do what you have to do. That's what your training is for.

Be able to articulate what you did and why you did it.

There's no shame in being afraid. It's one of the most important legal standards for self defense. But it should be reasonable fear. Blind panic doesn't get you any points.

"Reasonable" will not be decided by a twelve MT readers with the mods as presiding judges. It will be decided by a dozen people who don't have jobs, don't get out much and couldn't think up a reason to get out of jury duty. The person in charge is a judge who spends his or her working life as G-d Almighty in the tiny universe that is the courtroom, surrounded by servants and protected from the possibility of harm. One lawyer - who probably hasnt' defended a legitimate self defense claim in years - is being paid to act as if you are pure as the driven snow. The other one is honor bound to believe you are the love-child of Satan, Hitler and the Boston Strangler.

So you really need to know what you did, why you did it and be able to explain why you had to do it.

Other things can make a difference. If you were dressed in Arsenal colors and were surrounded 100 drunken British Football fans wearing Manchester jerseys you can make a darned good case that you had to pull out the stops and that the submachine gun and machete (legality of carrying them aside) were no more than reasonable. If the other guys are bigger and stronger, if they outnumber you, if they are better armed than you, if you have good reason to believe that they are well-trained and/or experienced in violence, if you're physically impaired due to illness, if you're a woman and they are men if they're on better drugs than you are the equation can change.

An example we liked to use in our WSD classes was Grandma and Bubba. Grandma has made 87 trips around the cruel old Sun. She weighs one pound for every one of those years. Bubba is 300 pounds of muscle. He used to be the front four for the Cincinnati Bengals. Currently his job is carrying beer kegs (one-handed) for a brewery. His testicles are still shrunk to the size of BBs because of the heroic amounts of steroids he's done.

If Grandma has a fit of senile dementia and tries to hit Bubba with her walker he might be justified in holding her at arms' length until she gets tired.

If Bubba 'roids out and attacks Grandma she can probably get away with a little more. By "a little more" I mean that if she shoots him so full of holes that squirrels and small birds can nest inside his chest cavity the police are likely to say "Nice groups, ma'am. Do you need a ride home?"

[Unpaid plug] For the answers to these and other important questions I can not recommend Massad Ayoob's LFI-1 Judicious Use of Deadly Force highly enough.

Fantastic Post Tellner I agree on all points..

 

[Touch Of Death]

It seems perfectly reasonable to me. You use the degree of force which is required to protect yourself. You don't use more, and you are not stupid enough to do less. How is that different than moderation?

I just said it was the same.(if you were asking me)
Sean

 

[still learning]

Hello, The aveage martial artist has never been in fight. We train in a dojo that is safe, comfortable atmosphere.

Try this? go to a place in the dark of night, by yourself alone? The fear factors, adrenline effects, create's a different you. If approach by a stranger/s ....think you will be calm?

Most people will forget most of the things they being training for.

A real fight is ANYTHING GOES, none stop (bad guys know this well), if you can still get up...than you will be able to attack back...so from their experience...they will keep hitting you! Weapons may be use against you too!

Most martial art schools do not train in this FEAR SITUTIONS. One day you will understand this?

Aloha......smile, and if attack? fight like you are crazy...you life may depend on it! Don't forget to Kiai!