United Kingdom: Turn in your neighbor if he has replicas

[Grenadier]

Sometimes I wonder, doesn't the UK gov't have something better to do, than to harass non-functional replica owners?

http://www.wandsworthguardian.co.uk...3181.0.replica_guns_seized_from_collector.php

Armed police swooped on the flat of a 54-year-old replica pistol collector in Battersea.

They seized 17 replica guns but police admit the man posed no threat to the community.

Police said local residents had raised concerns that the man had a large number of replica firearms and ammunition on display in his home.

It turned out the 54-year-old had been collecting the gun memorabilia over 20 years and had built up an extensive collection.

 

[thardey]

I had always figured that governments provided the feeling of safety through the illusion of security, rather than the actual security.

I guess this would be the next logical step: you start guarding against the illusion of danger?

Pretty soon we will all be in a world of illusions of threats, protected by a illusion of safety, against illusional weapons, by a govt. run on illusion, spending real money on illusional wars.

Oh, did I say soon? Ummmm . . . Oh, nevermind.

Maybe at least we could figure out how to spend illusional money on this stuff. Although there are probably economists who would say we already are.

"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"

Am I really here? or this all an illusion?

 

[Empty Hands]

Sadly, given the stories about crime and justice coming out of the UK over the last few years, I am not a bit surprised.

Wake up Brits!

 

[MA-Caver]

I had always figured that governments provided the feeling of safety through the illusion of security, rather than the actual security.

I guess this would be the next logical step: you start guarding against the illusion of danger?

Pretty soon we will all be in a world of illusions of threats, protected by a illusion of safety, against illusional weapons, by a govt. run on illusion, spending real money on illusional wars.

Oh, did I say soon? Ummmm . . . Oh, nevermind.

Maybe at least we could figure out how to spend illusional money on this stuff. Although there are probably economists who would say we already are.

"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"

Am I really here? or this all an illusion?

Hey, like the song says... "...merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream..."

 

[MBuzzy]

So....are the police going to reimburse him for his time and money spent on this collection?

 

[Tez3]

Well you lot are used to having guns around the place, probably hidden all over the house but we aren't and we actually like it that way. Although, sadly, real guns are becoming easier to get hold of many criminals still use the replicas for robberies. After all people don't actually have any way of telling whether they are real or not when they are being pointed at them. Also many 'replicas' in this country aren't actually replicas, they are what they call, laughingly in my opinion, 'deactivated' weapons which can very easily be 'reactivated' weapons.
You may also like to check up in our media how many children have been killed recently by guns in our country.
I would remind you that the majority of the British public have never seen a gun in real life and the only knowledge they have of weapons is gleaned from tv and films so of course they are very uneasy when someone appears to have firearms in the house next to them. You can sneer at their ignorance but their fear is probably a very real one to them.

 

[MBuzzy]

Well you lot are used to having guns around the place, probably hidden all over the house but we aren't and we actually like it that way. Although, sadly, real guns are becoming easier to get hold of many criminals still use the replicas for robberies. After all people don't actually have any way of telling whether they are real or not when they are being pointed at them. Also many 'replicas' in this country aren't actually replicas, they are what they call, laughingly in my opinion, 'deactivated' weapons which can very easily be 'reactivated' weapons.
You may also like to check up in our media how many children have been killed recently by guns in our country.
I would remind you that the majority of the British public have never seen a gun in real life and the only knowledge they have of weapons is gleaned from tv and films so of course they are very uneasy when someone appears to have firearms in the house next to them. You can sneer at their ignorance but their fear is probably a very real one to them.

That definately puts a different spin on the discussion, I had no idea that weapons were like that in the UK. You're right, we get so used to how things are in the US that we apply that to the rest of the world.

 

[thardey]

Well you lot are used to having guns around the place, probably hidden all over the house but we aren't and we actually like it that way. Although, sadly, real guns are becoming easier to get hold of many criminals still use the replicas for robberies. After all people don't actually have any way of telling whether they are real or not when they are being pointed at them. Also many 'replicas' in this country aren't actually replicas, they are what they call, laughingly in my opinion, 'deactivated' weapons which can very easily be 'reactivated' weapons.
You may also like to check up in our media how many children have been killed recently by guns in our country.
I would remind you that the majority of the British public have never seen a gun in real life and the only knowledge they have of weapons is gleaned from tv and films so of course they are very uneasy when someone appears to have firearms in the house next to them. You can sneer at their ignorance but their fear is probably a very real one to them.

So are replica guns illegal? Or does your government have the right to confiscate anything that could possibly be used for a crime by anybody because your neighbors are nervous?

Doesn't it worry you that the police may get a complaint from somebody who doesn't know about MA, and come shut down your dojo, because some of the techniques you teach could be used to illegally assault someone? After all, I'm guessing that the only fighting most people have seen also comes from TV, or the movies.

(That's actually not a rhetorical question, BTW, I'm really unfamiliar with citizen's/subjects rights in the UK, and how they are defined.) I would really like to know how you know where you can stand up for yourselves.

 

[Tez3]

The police won't come and shut down a Dojo. In the UK most people are familiar with Oriental martial arts as they have been here since the 19th century.In London we have the oldest Judo club outside Japan. Judo, karate and juijitsu were taught in the military during World War 2.
In this country we need a license to hold weapons, the police come out and inspect where you keep them... a secured cupboard usually and you have to have references.
http://www.psni.police.uk/index/advice_centre/firearms.htm

http://www.surrey.police.uk/flic.asp

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2558291.ece

 

[thardey]

The police won't come and shut down a Dojo. In the UK most people are familiar with Oriental martial arts as they have been here since the 19th century.In London we have the oldest Judo club outside Japan. Judo, karate and juijitsu were taught in the military during World War 2.
In this country we need a license to hold weapons, the police come out and inspect where you keep them... a secured cupboard usually and you have to have references.
http://www.psni.police.uk/index/advice_centre/firearms.htm

http://www.surrey.police.uk/flic.asp

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2558291.ece

So, from the first one:

[SIZE=-1]What is a Firearm?
The term "firearm" is defined as a lethal barrelled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged and includes:
(a)any prohibited weapon, whether it is such a lethal weapon or not; and
(b)any component part of such a lethal or prohibited weapon; and
(c)any accessory to any such weapon designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the weapon.
“Component Part” in relation to a firearm means –
a)any barrel, chamber or cylinder;
b)any frame, action, body or receiver;
c)any breech block, bolt or other mechanism for containing the pressure of discharge at the rear of the chamber;
d)any part of a firearm which directly bears the pressure caused by firing; and
e)any magazine;
In Northern Ireland airguns and CO2 guns having a discharge kinetic energy in excess of one (1) Joule (0.737 ft lbs) require to be held on a Firearm Certificate.
[/SIZE]

It sounds as though the replicas are made up of enough parts to be considered a firearm, but in the article:

Arlene McCarthy, a British Labour MEP, is trying to update a European Union directive on gun control. “I’d prefer to have them banned but other member states are not ready to. But at the moment they’re not even catego-rised as a firearm and that’s very worrying,” she said.

They're not banned yet.

So, are replicas illegal without a license?

 

[Empty Hands]

I would remind you that the majority of the British public have never seen a gun in real life and the only knowledge they have of weapons is gleaned from tv and films so of course they are very uneasy when someone appears to have firearms in the house next to them.

Sure. However, it was the police who raided this man's house and confiscated his collection after they themselves admitted he posed no danger. Are the police also unaware of what real guns look like?

 

[Empty Hands]

They're not banned yet.

That quote was almost beyond belief. What is so worrying about harmless devices that are not in fact firearms not being categorized as firearms? The only trait they share is appearance. By that logic, it is worrying that I have not yet been classified as a rapist - after all, I look male.

 

[Tez3]

Sure. However, it was the police who raided this man's house and confiscated his collection after they themselves admitted he posed no danger. Are the police also unaware of what real guns look like?[/quote]

Actually the answer to that is yes. Very few police officers are armed or trained to use weapons. Like the majority of the population they have nothing to do with firearms. My force is the only one routinely armed but we aren't Home Office police we are Ministry of Defence. Police officers can go through their entire careers without actually seeing a live weapon. They admitted he posed no danger after the raid, they didn't have to admit that at all did they?

 

[Tez3]

That quote was almost beyond belief. What is so worrying about harmless devices that are not in fact firearms not being categorized as firearms? The only trait they share is appearance. By that logic, it is worrying that I have not yet been classified as a rapist - after all, I look male.

That's a bit OTT. I have already explained that the 'replica' weapons we get here aren't replicas as such ie copies that cannot be made to fire but are deactivated weapons which can very easily be made operable. Not that harmless in the wrong hands. I'm sure if they were plastic toy type copies there would not be a problem.

 

[Empty Hands]

They admitted he posed no danger after the raid, they didn't have to admit that at all did they?

First of all, if gun violence is an increasing problem in the UK as you say, then clearly basic familiarity with firearms needs to be part of police basic training, even if they don't carry on the beat.

That said, from the article, the police knew the guns were replicas at least directly after the seizure. They specifically stated that they were seizing the guns, as replicas, because of the danger they posed.

 

[Tez3]

First of all, if gun violence is an increasing problem in the UK as you say, then clearly basic familiarity with firearms needs to be part of police basic training, even if they don't carry on the beat.

That said, from the article, the police knew the guns were replicas at least directly after the seizure. They specifically stated that they were seizing the guns, as replicas, because of the danger they posed.

Sadly yes we are all becoming familiar with guns. We have had a lot of children killed recently by guns usually by other children. They would have kept the guns because of the fact they could have be reactivated.

 

[thardey]

I think there may be a gap in language, here, but there may be a misunderstanding.

When I first read about "replica" weapons, I was thinking something like these:

NON-FIRING western replicas

These are common here in the states with re-enactors, they're used for "old west" decorations, etc.

Some are detailed enough that you can actually see how the mechanics of the gun worked, most are not. But if you've ever picked up one those we have here, you will see in a moment that there is no way to safely (or even remotely safely) convert these into a actual working firearm. They barely function as toys.

The concept of a "deactivated firearm" is NOT the same as a replica. In fact, around here a "deactivated firearm" is a puddle of steel.

It sounds like what you guys are dealing with are more of a "99% functional" gun, that doesn't take much work to turn into a weapon. We don't call those replicas here. Those are broken guns.

For instance, in Oregon, most security companies have to remove the firing pins from their pistols, but they're still considered firearms.

As a side note, California (where EH hails from) has almost the strictest gun laws in our country, so people there can get pretty weird about guns there, too. (don't believe everything you see in the movies about L.A)

 

[Empty Hands]

It sounds like what you guys are dealing with are more of a "99% functional" gun, that doesn't take much work to turn into a weapon. We don't call those replicas here. Those are broken guns.

I guess the question would then be how exactly they were disabled. After all, making a gun isn't really that hard - I've seen a number of garage smith outfits myself. How much work are we talking about here I wonder? Also, if these guns were such a danger, why are they not illegal, how did the old guy get 'em, and if they are legal, what was the legal basis for seizing them?

For instance, in Oregon, most security companies have to remove the firing pins from their pistols, but they're still considered firearms.

I'm from Portland originally myself, and I didn't know that. What is the point of carrying a disabled firearm? Looking scary? They'd be better off carrying a tac flashlight and pepper spray.

As a side note, California (where EH hails from) has almost the strictest gun laws in our country, so people there can get pretty weird about guns there, too. (don't believe everything you see in the movies about L.A)

Yeah, but it sure didn't stop two someones from being shot to death in the street right in front of my apartment. All the laws have accomplished is to make it harder to defend myself.

 

[Tez3]

I think there may be a gap in language, here, but there may be a misunderstanding.

When I first read about "replica" weapons, I was thinking something like these:

NON-FIRING western replicas

These are common here in the states with re-enactors, they're used for "old west" decorations, etc.

Some are detailed enough that you can actually see how the mechanics of the gun worked, most are not. But if you've ever picked up one those we have here, you will see in a moment that there is no way to safely (or even remotely safely) convert these into a actual working firearm. They barely function as toys.

The concept of a "deactivated firearm" is NOT the same as a replica. In fact, around here a "deactivated firearm" is a puddle of steel.

It sounds like what you guys are dealing with are more of a "99% functional" gun, that doesn't take much work to turn into a weapon. We don't call those replicas here. Those are broken guns.

For instance, in Oregon, most security companies have to remove the firing pins from their pistols, but they're still considered firearms.

As a side note, California (where EH hails from) has almost the strictest gun laws in our country, so people there can get pretty weird about guns there, too. (don't believe everything you see in the movies about L.A)

That's the ones! the firing pins will be removed and a small 'plug' of metal put somewhere (depending on who's doing it) in the barrel.It's supposed to be immovable but I'm guessing any of you wiould be able to remove it easily and probably someone unfamiliar with guns would be able to after a bit of thought!

Funny you should mention the movies! We think that they are actually influencing many of the teens who've got hold of guns. They are acting out what they think is the American gang scene as seen on films and tv. There is definitely an attraction for young boys there, guns equate to power for them and they identify with the 'ghetto' type of surroundings and with being at odds with society! Of course knowing the police aren't armed as they are in America makes them one up as it were!

 

[bydand]

That's the ones! the firing pins will be removed and a small 'plug' of metal put somewhere (depending on who's doing it) in the barrel.It's supposed to be immovable but I'm guessing any of you wiould be able to remove it easily and probably someone unfamiliar with guns would be able to after a bit of thought!

I probably could fab a firing pin and drill out the barrel plug if one was there to begin with. The real issue is the quality of the steal used. Fire a round out of one of these with a cobble-job conversion and you are going to be holding a twisted hunk of metal with a stump that used to be your hand. There is a reason these usually sell for under $100 and a firing reproduction runs 3-5 times that much. There is MUCH more involved in converting these to firing weapons than somebody that didn't have access to a complete metal fab shop even COULD do. If you did have access, you wouldn't waste money on a replica as a starting point.