two 11 year old girls fight, one dies, coroner rules it homicide.

[chinto]

Duties of coroners or ME do indeed vary. In Colorado, the coroner is the only county official who can arrest the county sheriff.

perhaps but any citizen can arrest him if he is willing to take the responsibility of arresting the sheriff. I know an EMT who arrested a county sheriff and the state cops took him into custody. said sheriff was convicted of interference with a public safety officer and got a year in his own jail. he was recalled right after lol. judge could have given him up to 5 years.

 

[chinto]

yes, I do think about talking about the fact that if you fight you may die, or some one else. I help teach the younger students, and I had not really thought about kids that young being in a situation where a fatality happened with the low amount of technique it sounds like was involved.

I wonder if there was an unknown condition involved, but regardless it is something to think about talking about. I am not a primary instructor, but a brown belt in two styles and hope to be promoted to shodan soon. but I have taught kids class and adult classes from time to time for about 6 years now.

I do think i will defiantly mention it to the teen and college age students! If you are say 15 or older I think there is a good chance of charges being filed of at least involuntary manslaughter! ( still a major felony count )

Some DA's will consider any rank at martial arts as an aggravating fact I think if such a case if you are over 18 especially. I think most kids and young adults think a fight is somehow not serious, or at least not very dangerous of any thing over a bloody nose. So a wake up call for some students perhaps.

 

[MJS]

Two girls had a fight after school, one died after the fight. No indication in the article of any martial arts training on either girls part. Autopsy results are that it is Homicide! So if you fight, you may indeed die. But do you think that this is a freak event, or something to think about when teaching younger students perhaps?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/02/2...rom-injuries-in-school-fight/?test=latestnews

oops typo in title, they were 10 not 11 and I miss typed that and did not notice. my apologias!

It's a freak accident, I think. Reports are that there were no weapons involved and neither girl even got knocked down. The coroner lists the cause of death as blunt force trauma. For her to have died from this implies, to me, that she likely had some sort of anamoly that led to her being particularly succeptible to head injuries.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Homicide

I'm inclined to go with what DD said. Given the fact that nobody supposedly so I'm wondering if there wasn't some pre-existing medical issue. I'm also wondering if this isn't more applicable, from the same link:
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Manslaughter

In any case, it is a shame that this happened.

 

[puunui]

I'm inclined to go with what DD said. Given the fact that nobody supposedly so I'm wondering if there wasn't some pre-existing medical issue. I'm also wondering if this isn't more applicable, from the same link:
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Manslaughter

I don't think so. The original article said that the two girls had arranged to meet to fight.

 

[MJS]

I don't think so. The original article said that the two girls had arranged to meet to fight.

Hmm...not sure if I'm following you here. Yes, I did see what you're talking about. I was simply saying that perhaps the girl who died, had some pre-existing condition and the fight just sped up the death. Just like when we hear about someone being hit with a Taser. 99% of the time, the first thing people say is, "The Taser killed him!" but what they may not know, is that the guy may've been on drugs, had some heart condition, so the taser just sped up the death.

I hope that made sense...lol

 

[Dirty Dog]

Hmm...not sure if I'm following you here. Yes, I did see what you're talking about. I was simply saying that perhaps the girl who died, had some pre-existing condition and the fight just sped up the death. Just like when we hear about someone being hit with a Taser. 99% of the time, the first thing people say is, "The Taser killed him!" but what they may not know, is that the guy may've been on drugs, had some heart condition, so the taser just sped up the death.

I hope that made sense...lol

The article indicates that she died following surgery for 'a clot on the brain'. For a girl that young to have an intracranial bleed following this sort of impact (one not sufficient to knock her down, let alone out) implies that she almost certainly had some sort of vascular defect. Most likely an arteriovenous malformation or aneurysm.

And you're right about tazers. They are rarely directly responsible for deaths. And they're certainly far less lethal than the .45 that most of our officers carry.

I saw a guy once who (while psychotic from meth use) rushed at two officers with a knife in one hand, a club in the other, a rope around his neck and nothing else. Naked. When the tazer was fired, one barb lodged in his sternum. Ouch.

The other barb was in his scrotum.

I think he might have wished he had died...

 

[puunui]

Hmm...not sure if I'm following you here. Yes, I did see what you're talking about. I was simply saying that perhaps the girl who died, had some pre-existing condition and the fight just sped up the death. Just like when we hear about someone being hit with a Taser. 99% of the time, the first thing people say is, "The Taser killed him!" but what they may not know, is that the guy may've been on drugs, had some heart condition, so the taser just sped up the death. I hope that made sense...lol

I was looking more at the manslaughter angle. I don't think it would fall under that if they both agreed to fight after school.

 

[MJS]

The article indicates that she died following surgery for 'a clot on the brain'. For a girl that young to have an intracranial bleed following this sort of impact (one not sufficient to knock her down, let alone out) implies that she almost certainly had some sort of vascular defect. Most likely an arteriovenous malformation or aneurysm.

And you're right about tazers. They are rarely directly responsible for deaths. And they're certainly far less lethal than the .45 that most of our officers carry.

I saw a guy once who (while psychotic from meth use) rushed at two officers with a knife in one hand, a club in the other, a rope around his neck and nothing else. Naked. When the tazer was fired, one barb lodged in his sternum. Ouch.

The other barb was in his scrotum.

I think he might have wished he had died...

Hopefully they'll say the exact cause of death.

I was looking more at the manslaughter angle. I don't think it would fall under that if they both agreed to fight after school.

I'll start by saying I'm not a lawyer or legal expert. So, that said, reading the manslaughter link, it just seemed to me, that it was more fitting than homicide. It would seem to me, the intent to kill the girl wasn't there. They intended to fight...it was mutually agreed upon. Going by the article, I didn't get the impression they intentionally set out to kill one another.

 

[puunui]

reading the manslaughter link, it just seemed to me, that it was more fitting than homicide. It would seem to me, the intent to kill the girl wasn't there. They intended to fight...it was mutually agreed upon. Going by the article, I didn't get the impression they intentionally set out to kill one another.

I don't think they wanted to intentionally kill each other. It is not exactly the same situation, but I think it is being treated like if someone got killed in a tournament. Should you get charged with a crime in that situation if you are the one who did not pass away? Plus the age of the kids is a factor as well.

 

[MJS]

I don't think they wanted to intentionally kill each other. It is not exactly the same situation, but I think it is being treated like if someone got killed in a tournament. Should you get charged with a crime in that situation if you are the one who did not pass away? Plus the age of the kids is a factor as well.

I dont know if the example you gave really applies though. I mean, we have 2 people, in both situations, the after school brawl and the tournament. In both, the people agreed to meet at a certain time, and a certain place. Though it does happen, I'd like to not think that the people at the tournament are out to seriously injure one another. Then again...I have to wonder.....lol.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

We used to call it 'mutual combat'. Definitions vary, and apparently it is falling out of use as a legal term:

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/M/MutualCombat.aspx

Here's a case with some basic similarities (in terms of results, anyway):

http://www.ardmoreite.com/news/x1170598780/No-charges-planned-in-death

Discussing the evidence Ladd said, “The investigation indicated that on the evening of his death, Mr. Jones was involved in at least two separate, unrelated physical altercations, both of which could be characterized as mutual combat or, in other words, that he was a willing participant in the altercations.”

Ladd said an autopsy report, “when considered in conjunction with the results of the rest of the investigation,” indicates Jones’ died from injuries he sustained in the second altercation. But while the autopsy points to the second fight, Ladd said additional evidence shows a dramatic and unusual turn of events.

“The investigation revealed that the second altercation was initiated by Mr. Jones and that he was struck by an individual acting in self defense,” Ladd said. “Given that the individual was not armed with a weapon and that the individual’s response appears to have only consisted of a couple of blows, Mr. Jones’s resultant death can best be described as either excusable or as a death by misadventure.”

 

[Em MacIntosh]

My opinion is asinine: Violence is unacceptable. You don't duel, you decline the challenge. If they don't let you decline, they're going to force you to fight...I consider that a death threat to be dealt with accordingly.

The human body can take over fifty stab wounds before the victim stops screaming yet apnea can kill you in your sleep. People are unpredictably fragile. We're forced to err on the side of caution when considering potential consequences. This all goes without saying yet few people seem to take it seriously. Many will say they take it seriously. So why aren't kids understanding the seriousness of violence? The message isn't being driven home, the kids aren't being adequately discouraged and it's dismissed as part of growing up.

You lose your temper and hit someone, ten years in jail. You do it again and they throw away the key. You can't control it? Society's right to safety trumps your freedom to be a danger to society and you are a dangerous individual, whether it be anger problems, delusions or some other behavior you can't help.

Assault and attempted murder are differences of degree. You assault someone to what end? To injure them? To hurt their feelings? To hurt their reputation? And if the very real possibility of them dying as a result happens, ignorance of possibly killing them is the defense? Ya, and if a frog had wings...

Now, back down to earth. It could have just as easily been "ring around the rosie" and she could hit her head, causing the same problem but it was a fight, it could have been avoided and I wonder what the children were taught about violence.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

My opinion is asinine: Violence is unacceptable. You don't duel, you decline the challenge. If they don't let you decline, they're going to force you to fight...I consider that a death threat to be dealt with accordingly.

Two things.

First, yes, violence is bad, and people should try to avoid it. However, children fight. Always have, always will. We have a generation of adults in the USA now that we tried to breed that out of of, and what we ended up with was a mess. My advice is to let children be children and get over it.

Second, and I'm trying not to laugh, I don't think that word means what you think it means.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

Thanks, Bill. I don't get embarassed much anymore.

I meant it in the context of my opinion being prejudiced, oversimplified and emotional, all things I consider foolish. I still maintain that reason is the first casualty of passion and I meant it as a passionate statement.

So passion=asinine (to me)

moving on...

I consider children to be adults in training. That's why they get more responsibility as they earn it. Adult and child are very arbitrary terms that are based on having adequate responsibility to be your own guardian by age 18. One of the most important things to learn is consequence. I'm not for hitting children, I find it despicable. I'm not for screaming and yelling because it defeats its own purpose but there are times when children respect what the word "serious" means and listen carefully, retaining what they learn as a life lesson their bones will remember. Perhaps it requires witnessing the negative possibilities of violence, maybe it takes a particular tone of voice but kids are capable of taking things like violence seriously and they're quite capable of cultivating that attitude throughout life.

When people use the term "human nature", I take it as their excuse not to try. Many things remind me of the way "human nature" is used in argument.

I'm sorry if I come accross as overly assertive, I'm usually rather meek with my opinions and this kind of thing is a little close to home for me.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

When people use the term "human nature", I take it as their excuse not to try. Many things remind me of the way "human nature" is used in argument.

You can take it that way if you wish. I do not believe you are correct. I've got a half-century of experience backing me up.

I'm sorry if I come accross as overly assertive, I'm usually rather meek with my opinions and this kind of thing is a little close to home for me.

I understand; if you've read my threads on legalizing drugs, you'll know I have a couple hot buttons of my own. But don't worry, you can't be too assertive for me.

Two thoughts regarding kids fighting. The first is that once upon a time, I was picked on at school. My dad finally got tired of me coming home crying and said if I came home again crying, he'd make me cry more. I believed him. I stood up to the bullies and the bullying stopped.

And the second is that kids whose parents teach them not to fight back when hit are breeding another generation of namby-pamby hand-wringing cowardly numb-skulls such as those we have as adults now. It was tried; it doesn't work. Let kids fight; they'll work things out on their own.

We're not enlightened creatures. We're average, we're normal, we're mundane, and we fight. To quote Hobbes, life is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." That's not to suggest that this is a good thing; it's just a thing. And it can't be avoided. So get on with life and quit worrying quite so much about how kids work things out on their own.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

You can take it that way if you wish. I do not believe you are correct. I've got a half-century of experience backing me up.

I must respect experience, including my own. Upon reflection, it appears as if I was putting words in your mouth. Thanks for seeing past that and addressing the point.

I understand; if you've read my threads on legalizing drugs, you'll know I have a couple hot buttons of my own. But don't worry, you can't be too assertive for me.

Thanks. Assurance is always nice.

Two thoughts regarding kids fighting. The first is that once upon a time, I was picked on at school. My dad finally got tired of me coming home crying and said if I came home again crying, he'd make me cry more. I believed him. I stood up to the bullies and the bullying stopped.

Preaching to the choire, sir. I fully agree. Where we differ is that I don't see it as standing up to them, I see it as self-defense and no different than 6 on 1 in an alleyway. I see it as an immediate and decisive escalation of force. I'm talking about seriously injuring the bully if necessary to defend yourself, not trading a couple broken noses and swollen knuckles and if the ego's were as swollen in your day as they were in my day it will escalate until the bully wrings your neck or you pull out his eyes, figuratively speaking. I mean immediate and decisive action. Which brings me directly to your next point

And the second is that kids whose parents teach them not to fight back when hit are breeding another generation of namby-pamby hand-wringing cowardly numb-skulls such as those we have as adults now.

Couldn't agree more, perhaps more so. When I say how serious violence is, it certainly doesn't mean to prostrate yourself to a boot-party. When I say violence is unacceptable, what would be more accepting than doing nothing and crying to the teacher? Violence is unacceptable, you put an end to it there. You don't teach the bully a lesson, you maim his ego along with his body.

We're not enlightened creatures. We're average, we're normal, we're mundane, and we fight. To quote Hobbes, life is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." That's not to suggest that this is a good thing; it's just a thing. And it can't be avoided. So get on with life and quit worrying quite so much about how kids work things out on their own.

I never suggested that we're enlightened, I merely suggest that if the eventuality is known, get to the point. Someone assaults you, you don't cry to teacher, you don't have a little fist fight and shake hands, you don't keep running. You bite their nose off, claw out their eyes and make it clear you've had enough! You don't go through the process of being repeatedly assaulted and broken down, you disable the threat. If you can't, maybe the consequences won't be as bad as in the street, then again this whole topic reminds us of the unpredictable fragility of the human body.

Anyway, Bill, thanks for reading...I'm beat.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Two girls had a fight after school, one died after the fight. No indication in the article of any martial arts training on either girls part. Autopsy results are that it is Homicide! So if you fight, you may indeed die. But do you think that this is a freak event, or something to think about when teaching younger students perhaps?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/02/2...rom-injuries-in-school-fight/?test=latestnews

oops typo in title, they were 10 not 11 and I miss typed that and did not notice. my apologias!

the news is missing important stuff as usual. I live around the corner from this school and my daughter was a friend of Joanna.

 

[chinto]

OK what are they not telling us in that story? has any more information come out since that story posted??

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

Very sad turn of events. The fight should never had happened in the first place no matter if its plain old bullying or if it is a fight over a boyfriend, things could've worked out in different ways instead of their own fists.