Tuition Increases

jks9199

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A word of caution here, don't drive up in a BMW, with the latest iphone, and a tablet in your gym bag and tell me you can't afford the $10.00 extra dollars a month. That puts a price of the value you place on my instruction, and what you are telling me is that you don't think my instruction is worth X amount, when I have deemed it is and frankly I'd tell you to hit the road. But if the need is real and you really can't come up with an $10.00 a month and I'm going to lose you as a student, than what you coming to me and explaining things is telling me "Hey this guy swallowed his pride and came to talk with me, he values my instruction enough that he has stretched enough to take classes from me, but my price increases tips over his families' well being can I help him or do I lose him?". I'm not going to hold a grudge against you or think down about you, or even treat you any differently except with perhaps a bit more respect.

It's important to take some of that in context. The stuff may be a "leftover" from a prior job or better times, or handed down from family. The phone and/or tablet might be from the employer, or otherwise legitimate job needs.
 
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jks9199

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Kaygee...

From what you've posted, you're budget is stretched to the limit. I think you're asking for permission to drop out. Fine, you've got it. You have my explicit permission to quit the school because of the price increase. You can blame me. Because I really think that's what you're actually looking for here... permission and someone else to pull the trigger for you.

Set that time aside at home, and practice your tang soo do forms. Exercise. (Look into Crossfit; much of their program has minimal equipment needs or can be worked around.) Find some buddies with similar interests and form a violence-prone play group, and work on the self defense concerns.

And maybe you can set aside some of that money that's not going to Kaygee's recreation and use it to go to seminars or support training in a year or two, in a way that it won't be such a budget strain.
 
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Kaygee

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Kaygee...

From what you've posted, you're budget is stretched to the limit. I think you're asking for permission to drop out. Fine, you've got it. You have my explicit permission to quit the school because of the price increase. You can blame me. Because I really think that's what you're actually looking for here... permission and someone else to pull the trigger for you.

Set that time aside at home, and practice your tang soo do forms. Exercise. (Look into Crossfit; much of their program has minimal equipment needs or can be worked around.) Find some buddies with similar interests and form a violence-prone play group, and work on the self defense concerns.

And maybe you can set aside some of that money that's not going to Kaygee's recreation and use it to go to seminars or support training in a year or two, in a way that it won't be such a budget strain.

Lol! <3
 

Mark Lynn

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It's important to take some of that in context. The stuff may be a "leftover" from a prior job or better times, or handed down from family. The phone and/or tablet might be from the employer, or otherwise legitimate job needs.

You are right and I totally agree. However in Kaygee's situation I was stressing the point that if you are going to approach an instructor about not being able to afford a $10.00 monthly rate increase, it better be for real. I speak from experience here of giving someone a break and then the students all showing up with new i phones. But again it might have been handed down from family or a gift etc. etc. HOWEVER I knew the students for quite some time and they were loyal and I got over it, in Kaygee's situation he only just started and I was suggesting that he ask for the favor of a discounted rate. The other instructor might not have been as understanding.

It is a moot point regardless.
 

shesulsa

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When you're talking $120 versus $130, I don't see a whole lot of difference there. If the extra $10 could hurt you, I'd question paying the $120.

I feel the same way about the difference between $40 and $50. Ten dollars makes a huge difference for me right now, so I can understand trepidation ... but if your money is THAT tight? Then you should be looking at a further reduction in rate, even if it means an inferior school.

You're looking at a whole lot of sides to what is really just a number issue. It would be *nice* to tell you that tuition was going up, but not *required.* Some people care about that, some people don't.

So ... this decision just has to be on you and your wife - only the two of you know what your boundaries are.
 

Swifty20

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Kaygee...

From what you've posted, you're budget is stretched to the limit. I think you're asking for permission to drop out. Fine, you've got it. You have my explicit permission to quit the school because of the price increase. You can blame me. Because I really think that's what you're actually looking for here... permission and someone else to pull the trigger for you.

Set that time aside at home, and practice your tang soo do forms. Exercise. (Look into Crossfit; much of their program has minimal equipment needs or can be worked around.) Find some buddies with similar interests and form a violence-prone play group, and work on the self defense concerns.

And maybe you can set aside some of that money that's not going to Kaygee's recreation and use it to go to seminars or support training in a year or two, in a way that it won't be such a budget strain.

I think another option for Kaygee could be to do alternating months at the gym, one on and one off (if the gym wouldn't object to that sort of thing). Get the equipment you might want to work out with at home and concentrate on that more during the "off" months. Also during your time at the gym during "on" months, see if there is anyone who is friendly who might be up for meeting up with you somewhere else during "off" months occasionally to practice sparring or whatever. And in this way, you can just think of it as a $65 a month cost and just save appropriately.

You could also explain this all to the gym that you plan to do this just so they know what's going on (don't tell them as a negotiating ploy, I literally mean just let them know that your finances at this time only allow you to do alternating months). If they happen to try to negotiate a lower monthly price to keep you there every month, then you can make whatever decision you think is best for you and your wife. If they don't (and I certainly wouldn't bet on it), then the alternating month plan I think is a decent thing to try.
 

harlan

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Don't know if this is an option, but check out the larger universities where you live. Where I work, the gym/pools/rec center is available to local residents for $340 per year. You can pay by the semester ($150/150/40) in case you just want to try it for a bit), or all at once for the whole year. There is also a short period where the rates are discounted if you buy early. And, joining the Rec center ALSO comes with free access to the student clubs: kendo, jujutsu, tai kwon do, etc. (which charge a nominal fee for dues for the year...like $20). :)
 

Mark Lynn

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You are right, and I am sorry. I am just frustrated right now because I have put so much blood, sweat and broken/sprained body parts into this and it seems like it is coming to a pointless end to me.
But for me to damn the entire martial arts world and all of its styles, is immature and wrong, at best, and I apologize for that!

Kaygee

Hopefully this thread has been helpful and if anything gave you something to think about, other than just feeling better about quitting the school. However I don't see the need for it to come to a pointless end for you. I think you need to change your perspective on how you're training.

At first you posted that you liked the school (the MMA), you were getting a good workout, good instruction, liked the people etc. etc. and you later posted that the Tang Soo Do school didn't meet your needs because it was sport oriented, you were the oldest one there with a bunch of kids. Later you posted that the BJJ school was nice but you had learned some things about it that dissatisfied you; like you felt that BJJ wasn't effective on the street, you liked the Muay Thai but it wasn't taught much, the Boxing was OK, but you were learning three sports instead of the self defense aspect of the arts which is what you were really after. Now it all comes crashing down that it is all pointless because it isn't real self defense.

1) Nothing is real self defense in that everything you do in the dojo is controlled/cooperative simulations. In BJJ you do ground work and you work towards submissions, however the drill can be changed to where one person goes for the submissions and the other could go for more self defense related techniques like grabbing for the throat sticking his fingers into the eyes etc. etc. Do the same drill and have one person have a folding training knife in their pocket that they need to get it out open and stab where the other persons job is to watch that and prevent it from being deployed. On wait you don't wear pants in BJJ class, but for a SD class why not. In Tang Soo Do your one steps could teach fancy kicks and or sparring techniques or they could include take downs and stomps, arm bars, locks, whatever. You could expand the concept of the one steps to include defenses against kicks and tie in your Muay Thai low line cut kick to the supporting leg, or the foot sweep from BJJ or any art for that matter. Ultimately I believe it is how the simulations are used or set up are whats really important and tells you what focus of the school is.

2) Motion is motion so any move (I'm referring to a general concept here) can be used in multiple ways. The lunge punch that you are attacked with in one steps represents a lead punch or a really committed jab, the reverse punch represents a punch coming from the rear like a cross punch in boxing. The arm bar that you learn from BJJ can actually be a arm break of a shock to the arm to make it un-useable in the street, just like the down block can be an arm bar, the knees in your MT can be used for self defense, just like the elbows etc. etc. The long stance in TSD can help you close the distance when faced with an armed attacker, or it can be used as you step backwards to off balance and throw a person to the ground, or as you step back it can help you gain distance for a kick.

3) Its the journey of getting there that counts, the more you learn the more you can see what is out there and what is different. If your focus is on self defense then you need to look at drills and say how can I apply it differently to a self defense related mode. Then practice it that way as well. Looking at your TSD forms from a different perspective such as how the moves relate to Self Defense instead of sparring will help you to see beyond the meaningless form into something that has value. I beieve that TSD practices the Japanese katas (perhaps with Korean names), but I think they stayed with the older forms. If so than look up Bunkai on you tube and you will see a lot of useful stuff. Try Iain Abernethey for self defense related bunkai that should apply to your forms. Likewise Dan Anderson has a book on Modern Arnis (it is the empty hand book) that because MA had a Shotokan influence in it for it's Anyos (forms) has a very good section in that book that deals with motion application of traditional blocks (it opened my eyes).

Next I would look for a school to train in. I know finances are tight, but I would look and train somewhere in the near future. In all of these examples I gave you you need a partner to work with. I know the schools might not teach this way but you could ask and explore some different outcomes of the drills. For instance you could talk with the instructor and in one step sparring ask if you can do take downs (go easy on your partner), ask if you can do more self defense related stuff. You mentioned about the TSD place as having to many kids, so what about the other dojos? Are they all filled up with kids? Even though it might be a TKD, or a karate school that instructor might be dieing to have an adult be interested in the applications or at least exploring the idea with someone. You never know.

There are schools like this out there, my school is like this and I teach at a Rec. Center. I teach my intermediate/advanced belts drills that I learned in Muay Thai seminars almost 20 years ago (elbow drills, knee drills), likewise I teach them take downs that I learned in JKDC Kali from Guro Inosanto and Modern Arnis from GM Remy and SM Dan Anderson, arm bars I learned in Aikijujitsu, applications from katas I learned from Tony Annesi, even applications from katas I watched on DVDs of Iain Abernethy. The thing is I teach what is commonly called American Karate (TKD) a bastardized version of ITF TKD. My focus, my ultimate goal is to focus on the SD related aspect instead of the sport and I don't have any adults in my TKD program. My students get to do knife and stick defense (advanced intermediates and advanced belts in their teens), mind you defense tactics only, I'm not teaching teenagers to stick and knife fight; still the focus is one building SD related skills. They learn the ITF forms but with more combative or SD related bunkai in mind, release from grabs, take downs, hair grabs and low line kicks etc. etc.

I mention this because if someone like you came to my class on a night we're doing sparring, you'll see all of the kids padded up and getting after each other and you might think this is a sport school, likewise on a night we are working on kata then you might say we do nothing but dance. Talk with the instructors see what they think, what their goals are or focus is for their school. You might be surprised and find one that fits what you want and is in your budget. Right now I charge less than your old school for 3-4 workouts per week, in fact at the first of the year I'm going up in price to $80.00 a month. I'm way under priced.
 

harlan

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Ditto on Boar Man's last post. I personally know some good TKD taught for $30/month at a Rec center. Same set up, and no frills, but solid instructor. I personally train Goju and kobudo and have never paid a dime. You just gotta figure out what you want and keep looking for it.
 

Balrog

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My rent is going up on January 1. I gotta pass it on. I'm only raising rates 10 clams a month, but still.....
 
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Kaygee

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Everyrone has been helpful! Like I said, maybe I am not getting it.
Do me a favor....watch this video:


That is me doing Passai (2nd gup form) in October at a tournament. I got first place. I hear a lot of people talking about forms and katas relating to real world self defense, but can anyone look at that and tell me what parts of my form apply to such a thing? Perhaps it isn't being explained to me correctly? Or perhaps I am just doing a dance?

I don't know.... :(
 
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Dirty Dog

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Everyrone has been helpful! Like I said, maybe I am not getting it.
Do me a favor....watch this video:


That is me doing Passai (2nd gup form) in October at a tournament. I got first place. I hear a lot of people talking about forms and katas relating to real world self defense, but can anyone look at that and tell me what parts of my form apply to such a thing? Perhaps it isn't being explained to me correctly? Or perhaps I am just doing a dance?

I don't know.... :(

There are certain questions that can best be answered by yourself. That's part of growing in your art. You need to go through your forms step by step (and even partial-steps, since chambers may be more than JUST a chamber) and ask yourself how you could use that movement in a real world situation. If you can't come up with any answers, then that says more about your own progress than it does about your teacher. As a teacher, our job is to teach students how to think, not just parrot things back from rote memory. Memorizing things and parroting them back is fine for math and history. Not for an ART.
Being able to see the usefulness of movements in more than one context is, to my way of thinking, a large part of what seperates an advanced student from a beginner. And belt rank doesn't really have much (if anything) to do with it.
 
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Danny T

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There are certain questions that can best be answered by yourself. That's part of growing in your art. You need to go through your forms step by step (and even partial-steps, since chambers may be more than JUST a chamber) and ask yourself how you could use that movement in a real world situation.
Absolutely. Every movement should be analyzed as a movement by itself, as a movement using the movement just prior, and using the movement afterwards. Also are you outside an opponent's guard or inside the guard. Is the opponent punching or maybe grasping. (but a few questions to be used to analyze your forms with)

If you can't come up with any answers, then that says more about your own progress than it does about your teacher. As a teacher, our job is to teach students how to think, not just parrot things back from rote memory.
I would agree with this only if it is known that the teacher taught to analyze in the proper manner. In my experience, more have not been taught to think in such a manner; to see or understand movement and application potential; than who have been taught to do so. This is 'my' experience doesn't mean it is the same for all.
 

WaterGal

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The way my school works is that you are locked in at the rate you start with. Rate increases only apply to new students. It's a great system, IMO.

Yeah, same here, at least for the duration of their contract. We do a yearly membership, and it explicitly spells out in the contract, basically, "you will paying $____ a month for the next ____ months, for a total of $_____".
 

bluewaveschool

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Everyrone has been helpful! Like I said, maybe I am not getting it.
Do me a favor....watch this video:


That is me doing Passai (2nd gup form) in October at a tournament. I got first place. I hear a lot of people talking about forms and katas relating to real world self defense, but can anyone look at that and tell me what parts of my form apply to such a thing? Perhaps it isn't being explained to me correctly? Or perhaps I am just doing a dance?

I don't know.... :(

Pretty much every part of it applies to self defense. Just some are less obvious than others. It looked good, btw. It's late, I'll take a harder look tomorrow and toss you some ideas.
 
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dancingalone

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Everyrone has been helpful! Like I said, maybe I am not getting it.
Do me a favor....watch this video:


That is me doing Passai (2nd gup form) in October at a tournament. I got first place. I hear a lot of people talking about forms and katas relating to real world self defense, but can anyone look at that and tell me what parts of my form apply to such a thing? Perhaps it isn't being explained to me correctly? Or perhaps I am just doing a dance?

I don't know.... :(

A bunch of us could give you specific interpretations of what each movement can mean, but it really wouldn't do you any good to just read it. You have to train the interpretations too and with someone that knows what they are doing. If I told you one meaning of the successive inside-to-outside blocks in Passai/Bassai/Palchek was an arm bar, how could you learn it unless you have a teacher that 1) can teach an arm bar in the first place and 2) understands the signposting contained within kata that makes the arm bar all the more effective if followed?

Unfortunately, it's not just as simple as having a desire to learn... but you know this. :(
 
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Mark Lynn

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Everyrone has been helpful! Like I said, maybe I am not getting it.
Do me a favor....watch this video:


That is me doing Passai (2nd gup form) in October at a tournament. I got first place. I hear a lot of people talking about forms and katas relating to real world self defense, but can anyone look at that and tell me what parts of my form apply to such a thing? Perhaps it isn't being explained to me correctly? Or perhaps I am just doing a dance?

I don't know.... :(

Kaygee

OK take your three knife hand blocks going down the center, here is a link to Iain Abernethy teaching at his dojo on a knife hand drill, then in the middle of it he goes to a drill that switches from the inside to the outside of the arm and he explains the opening on the body where you could hit etc. etc. But that drill sequence I believe comes from Pinan/Heian Yodan (if I heard him right).


Here are the opening moves of Pinan/Hein kata again from Iain Abernethy. This clip helps show how the katas can relate to self defense depending upon how they are taught.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRl7oaLJ0_0&list=UL

Specifically relating to Passai. Here is again a link to another video of Iain Abernethy explaining the opening blocking sequence of Passai (forearm blocks)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRl7oaLJ0_0&list=UL

This guy has some great videos if you don't have a lot of time on a variety of different blocks; check out One Minute Bunkai. This clip is on the Knife Hand block.


One Minute Bunkai on an upward block


Sihan Tony Annesi promo video on Cracking the Kata Code. Sihan Annesi also teaches Aikijujitsu so his applications have a different view point on applications. If you look at other promo videos of his you get a wider range of possibilities of applications.


Here is short video of RM Remy Presas showing applications of his first empty hand form (Anyo Isa in Modern Arnis). Then he goes into empty hand vs weapons disarms. I don't believe these clips do GM Remy justice at all but it was the only footage I could find of his Anyo applications. I post it only because you wanted to see how your moves in your kata could be something other than a dance.


Last here is Taika Seiyu Oyata, this first clip is an interview but throughoout it you see Oyata sensei doing various locks, takedowns etc. etc. self defense related applications. In other short videos you can see him do katas (back in the 60's) and a couple of knockouts.



My point in posting this and my previous posts have been to try and help you out. All of these short examples can help you see the wider picture as it comes to kata study (and how it could relate to self defense). Iain Abernethy realtes all of the kata moves generally to grabs and releases to grabs and holds. One Minute Bunkai has some applications for in response to holds and other applications come from the more general sparring feed of a straight lunge punch. Sensei Annesi does things more from the sparring mode (against the lunge punch) but with more of a higher level of off balancing throws takedowns etc. etc. Sensei Oyata did the same katas but he would take the footwork from one form and apply the hand techniqnes from another and therefore comes up with something completely different. Yet sensei Oyata was the only one who trained as a young man in Okinawa.

I hope this helps you see what some of us mean when we write about applications of the forms. I have purchased material realted to this subject material from all of these individuals except the one minute bunkai guy. I even went to seminars of GM Remy's sensei Annesi and Oyata. PM me and I'll be glad to help you (give you info on anything that would help you) if you are interested in purchasing their material. Oh and speaking of forms I thought your form was very good.

M Lynn
 
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