J
J-kid
Guest
Just a few questions can you discribe TSD kicks and how do they differ from MT and reglur TKD>
karatekid1975
Master Black Belt
To me, TSD kicks make more use of the hip and proper technique. I wish I had a site to show you, because I'm not very good at explaining LOL. Anyways, I was taught in TSD to use chambering, turning the hip over, and kicking for a roundhouse (with the ball of the foot). And side kicks are really different from TKD (to me that is). You chamber with your butt facing the target, throw the kick and turn your hip over at the same time. When the kick is fully extended, your body looks like a "T".
TKD uses "flicky" kicks (for sport reasons). Their roundhouse (or turning kicks) are brought up at a 45 degree angle (kinda looks like a front kick to me) instead of turing the hip over first. The side kicks are just thrown out. I know speed is one of the goals here, but I don't see the point in killing technique and power just to gain speed.
I did both (still in TKD and wish I was back in TSD), so I can tell ya there is a big difference LOL.
I don't know about HKD. I never done Hapkido other than some Combat hapkido.
MT uses "power" period. Their roundhouse kicks are brought up at an angle with little chamber. They use the hip first to bring the leg up. Total hip power. Very effective kick. I use it (I stole it from MT hehehehehe).
TKD uses "flicky" kicks (for sport reasons). Their roundhouse (or turning kicks) are brought up at a 45 degree angle (kinda looks like a front kick to me) instead of turing the hip over first. The side kicks are just thrown out. I know speed is one of the goals here, but I don't see the point in killing technique and power just to gain speed.
I did both (still in TKD and wish I was back in TSD), so I can tell ya there is a big difference LOL.
I don't know about HKD. I never done Hapkido other than some Combat hapkido.
MT uses "power" period. Their roundhouse kicks are brought up at an angle with little chamber. They use the hip first to bring the leg up. Total hip power. Very effective kick. I use it (I stole it from MT hehehehehe).
OP
J-kid
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #3
Thanks if anyone has pictures or can tell me more about the kicks that would be cool.
I have had students who have crossed over from TKD to TSD. They say that while there are simularities, it is a huge difference. front kicks in TKD come from the ground up instead of a chambering position. side kicks as well come up instead of out. TKD kicks are mostly concerned ( THIS IS THE TKD I HAVE BEEN SHOWN, I AM NOT OUT TO OFFEND ANYONE) with points, and not actual combat. Like KarateKid said, TSD emphsises more hips and technique.
The students who cross over say TSD is much harder, but they enjoy it more. Go figure. Interesting to note that TKD came from TSD back in the 1940's. TSD was founded in the '40's. and TKD in the '50's. interesting no?
Michael Tabone
The students who cross over say TSD is much harder, but they enjoy it more. Go figure. Interesting to note that TKD came from TSD back in the 1940's. TSD was founded in the '40's. and TKD in the '50's. interesting no?
Michael Tabone
karatekid1975
Master Black Belt
I knew that, mtabone 
And I agree that TSD is much harder. I went from TSD to TKD and I was bored to death. Everything was simple. TSD hyung took me months to learn, but I can learn the taeguk (TKD) forms in an hour. Go figure. This is WTF TKD, though. The sport version. So, I couldn't tell ya if any other TKD is harder.
And I agree that TSD is much harder. I went from TSD to TKD and I was bored to death. Everything was simple. TSD hyung took me months to learn, but I can learn the taeguk (TKD) forms in an hour. Go figure. This is WTF TKD, though. The sport version. So, I couldn't tell ya if any other TKD is harder.Check the Muay Thai forum for more on its kicking techniques, e.g.:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=982
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=982
white belt
Brown Belt
Poor kicking technique is equally existant in all arts using kicks. The existance of improper technique in any MA school is not indicative of the art in general. When will people stop trying to justify themselves by implying this? 1) After collecting enough experience by associating with different Martial Artists or 2) Possibly never because they stop looking around the next bend due to the journey thus far not being sufficient to their expectations. A give up approach.
I have students, both permanent and prospective, who come in from other Martial Art schools. The roundhouse alone will be used to make my point. The 45 degree roundhouse is a medium to close range variation of the long range roundhouse. The long range roundhouse has a full basefoot pivot of 180 degrees with the basefoots toes pointed away from the target for maximum reach, power and balance. When I evaluate the prospective student, they attend a free lesson. It allows me to see what they know and it allows them to see what I expect from my students. If they are previously experienced, one tell tale quality of experience indicator is if they can do the full long range roundhouse properly. If they can't, they are either inflating their resume or were TAUGHT IMPROPERLY. I assume they did not know better and offer diplomatically to help them achieve proper technical proficiency by learning at my school. 99 percent of the time I have to start them at a lower rank than what they held previously. If they want to try and continue, I sign them up for only a 90 day membership. This protects them, in their minds, from potential abuse and I can see if after 90 days they are truly trying to adapt and excel. If they are not following instruction, and are not correcting their technique, I politely explain the best recourse is not to continue at my Do Jang. They are then free to move on. Those types usually bail before meeting with me because they can read the writing on the wall before the 90 days are up. The true seekers swallow their pride and make a new level of effort. The ones who want to perpetuate their poor experience consider my classes too hard and make excuses that are rather shallow and/or embarassing. They then end up at a belt factory usually not far away. They are happy and I can keep free of any contamination in my school. They come from other TKD schools, some Karate schools AND SOME TANG SOO DO SCHOOLS. Yes, you are reading that correctly. In fact, the TSD school, most prominant in my area, is known for 45 minute to 1 hour classes and they do VERY little sparring. I teach a minimum of ONE AND A HALF HOUR CLASSES. We spar EVERY session a MINIMUM of 3 two minute rounds. Now here is the real kicker (pun intended).... I am WTF affiliated. I also have a clear understanding that there are a good number of TSD schools and Karate schools that DO compare with my schools dedication. I will not allow a POORLY TAUGHT TSD or KARATE practicioner, investigating my school, to skew my view of other TSD and Karate schools overall or even for the most part. No way in hell. It would be unfair and make me look rather naive not to mention dishonest. If you are involved in a bad school, get out or suffer it until you find something better, but why continuously display your lack of insight based on your present situation? It doesn't do you justice as a Martial Artist or a peer. Regardless of the local TSD schools rep. in my area, and your slant against WTF TKD, I appreciate and respect TSD enough to not bash it on a forum because of the aforementioned. I know that your bias and that school are not general indicators to that wonderful art. I really admire yours and others sense of honor toward good teachings, but there will always be McDoJangs/McDoJos in all arts so long as there are underacheivers. Why not set a NEW YEARS RESOLUTION to be the one woman turning point in that DoJang and SMOKE THE HELL OUT OF EVERY OTHER STUDENT IN THERE PERFORMANCE WISE? Now that would help you improve and maybe improve the quality of experience of some others like you that may have the same thoughts in that very DoJang. Make the best of your energy expenditures and share them on-line so others in your position can also dominate their circumstance. Bottom line, go politely kick some ***!!!!!
white belt
p.s.
TKD schools are more common than any other type of MA school presently. Back when Judo was the number 1 practiced Marial Art in the U.S., there were more Judo McDojos around than Karate McDojos. It was just simple law of averages. It did not mean that all Judo (Olympic and otherwise) sucked. One of the oldtimers can jump in and verify this very easily.
I have students, both permanent and prospective, who come in from other Martial Art schools. The roundhouse alone will be used to make my point. The 45 degree roundhouse is a medium to close range variation of the long range roundhouse. The long range roundhouse has a full basefoot pivot of 180 degrees with the basefoots toes pointed away from the target for maximum reach, power and balance. When I evaluate the prospective student, they attend a free lesson. It allows me to see what they know and it allows them to see what I expect from my students. If they are previously experienced, one tell tale quality of experience indicator is if they can do the full long range roundhouse properly. If they can't, they are either inflating their resume or were TAUGHT IMPROPERLY. I assume they did not know better and offer diplomatically to help them achieve proper technical proficiency by learning at my school. 99 percent of the time I have to start them at a lower rank than what they held previously. If they want to try and continue, I sign them up for only a 90 day membership. This protects them, in their minds, from potential abuse and I can see if after 90 days they are truly trying to adapt and excel. If they are not following instruction, and are not correcting their technique, I politely explain the best recourse is not to continue at my Do Jang. They are then free to move on. Those types usually bail before meeting with me because they can read the writing on the wall before the 90 days are up. The true seekers swallow their pride and make a new level of effort. The ones who want to perpetuate their poor experience consider my classes too hard and make excuses that are rather shallow and/or embarassing. They then end up at a belt factory usually not far away. They are happy and I can keep free of any contamination in my school. They come from other TKD schools, some Karate schools AND SOME TANG SOO DO SCHOOLS. Yes, you are reading that correctly. In fact, the TSD school, most prominant in my area, is known for 45 minute to 1 hour classes and they do VERY little sparring. I teach a minimum of ONE AND A HALF HOUR CLASSES. We spar EVERY session a MINIMUM of 3 two minute rounds. Now here is the real kicker (pun intended).... I am WTF affiliated. I also have a clear understanding that there are a good number of TSD schools and Karate schools that DO compare with my schools dedication. I will not allow a POORLY TAUGHT TSD or KARATE practicioner, investigating my school, to skew my view of other TSD and Karate schools overall or even for the most part. No way in hell. It would be unfair and make me look rather naive not to mention dishonest. If you are involved in a bad school, get out or suffer it until you find something better, but why continuously display your lack of insight based on your present situation? It doesn't do you justice as a Martial Artist or a peer. Regardless of the local TSD schools rep. in my area, and your slant against WTF TKD, I appreciate and respect TSD enough to not bash it on a forum because of the aforementioned. I know that your bias and that school are not general indicators to that wonderful art. I really admire yours and others sense of honor toward good teachings, but there will always be McDoJangs/McDoJos in all arts so long as there are underacheivers. Why not set a NEW YEARS RESOLUTION to be the one woman turning point in that DoJang and SMOKE THE HELL OUT OF EVERY OTHER STUDENT IN THERE PERFORMANCE WISE? Now that would help you improve and maybe improve the quality of experience of some others like you that may have the same thoughts in that very DoJang. Make the best of your energy expenditures and share them on-line so others in your position can also dominate their circumstance. Bottom line, go politely kick some ***!!!!!
white belt
p.s.
TKD schools are more common than any other type of MA school presently. Back when Judo was the number 1 practiced Marial Art in the U.S., there were more Judo McDojos around than Karate McDojos. It was just simple law of averages. It did not mean that all Judo (Olympic and otherwise) sucked. One of the oldtimers can jump in and verify this very easily.
Hello White Belt.
I do believe, I for one, stated," the TKD I have seen". Meaning, I am sure there are good schools of Tae Kwon Do. And I am sure there are bad schools of Tang Soo Do. And there are schools that do Tae Kwon Do and call it Tang Soo Do, and schools that do Tang Soo Do and call it Tae Kwon Do. I am very sure of all of these. From what has walked into my studio, and the tournements (open or otherwise) the Tae Kwon Do I have seen is not the same as Tang Soo Do. KarateKid is speaking from her experences at a TSD school and a TKD school. I do not pretend to talk on the TKD community as a whole. As I can only talk from my experences.
TSD does (typicly) do less sparring then TKD. That is indeed true. I don't see why that point was brought up? It is not a bad thing to sparr less and work on basics,hyungs, self defence, grabs, throws, weaons, (ect) and technique more. (All of these would be practiced at the advanced stages of development, not all at once for obvious reasons).
I also know people who transfered from other Tang Soo Do studios and they were not "up to par" either. McDojangs will be around as long as the public does not understand the differences between a good school and a bad one. (as well i am sure there were students from TSD and TKD that transfered that were "up to par" and had to do only slight tweaks, and learn the defence and hyungs ect)
I dont believe Tae Kwon Do has been Biased in my head, I believe the Tae Kwon Do I have seen as been. That is of course not speaking for all TKD. Only that which I have seen, heard, been shown, observed myself and from students, and fellow students.
In the end, one need only to go and practice, train hard, laugh a little, and not worry about others training.
Michael Tabone
I do believe, I for one, stated," the TKD I have seen". Meaning, I am sure there are good schools of Tae Kwon Do. And I am sure there are bad schools of Tang Soo Do. And there are schools that do Tae Kwon Do and call it Tang Soo Do, and schools that do Tang Soo Do and call it Tae Kwon Do. I am very sure of all of these. From what has walked into my studio, and the tournements (open or otherwise) the Tae Kwon Do I have seen is not the same as Tang Soo Do. KarateKid is speaking from her experences at a TSD school and a TKD school. I do not pretend to talk on the TKD community as a whole. As I can only talk from my experences.
TSD does (typicly) do less sparring then TKD. That is indeed true. I don't see why that point was brought up? It is not a bad thing to sparr less and work on basics,hyungs, self defence, grabs, throws, weaons, (ect) and technique more. (All of these would be practiced at the advanced stages of development, not all at once for obvious reasons).
I also know people who transfered from other Tang Soo Do studios and they were not "up to par" either. McDojangs will be around as long as the public does not understand the differences between a good school and a bad one. (as well i am sure there were students from TSD and TKD that transfered that were "up to par" and had to do only slight tweaks, and learn the defence and hyungs ect)
I dont believe Tae Kwon Do has been Biased in my head, I believe the Tae Kwon Do I have seen as been. That is of course not speaking for all TKD. Only that which I have seen, heard, been shown, observed myself and from students, and fellow students.
In the end, one need only to go and practice, train hard, laugh a little, and not worry about others training.
Michael Tabone
white belt
Brown Belt
Thanks MTABone! I was more directing my statements at KKid. You have been directly in contact with enough to see that all is pretty much equal. The sparring thing was brought up due to the local TSD school not showing the deeper self defense in their hyung and sparring most classes not at all. They are not left with much. That is my point concerning THAT school. We practice hyung with fervor and practice the apps. from them too. I am to understand that the good TSD and Karate schools do the same. There is a lot of fake Martial Art out there and it is good to let those jaded know that they may not have all the picture.
I am waiting to see a post about how someone waited too long at the drive up window for their lessons and then lump me in with that. They do have drive up funerals, in California, I have seen in the news. Why not drive up, get your next belt and the video for the next test requirements? Better yet, combine the two. Your saying goodbye to Uncle Fred at one window and your getting your lessons at the next window? When/if that happens I will run into the mountains and give up on humanity.
Happy New Year!!!
white belt
I am waiting to see a post about how someone waited too long at the drive up window for their lessons and then lump me in with that. They do have drive up funerals, in California, I have seen in the news. Why not drive up, get your next belt and the video for the next test requirements? Better yet, combine the two. Your saying goodbye to Uncle Fred at one window and your getting your lessons at the next window? When/if that happens I will run into the mountains and give up on humanity.
Happy New Year!!!
white belt
karatekid1975
Master Black Belt
White belt,
If you read my posts again, I'm not putting TKD in general down. I'm speaking from what I have seen and done. My present dojang happens to be TKD and it happens to be a McDojang. I haven't seen a good TKD school that matches my TSD dojang technique-wise. I'm sure there is TSD McDojangs, but I personally haven't seen one. The only TKD schools I see in my area (except one that I found the other day) have been McDojangs. But again, that's not ALL TKD schools.
If you read my posts again, I'm not putting TKD in general down. I'm speaking from what I have seen and done. My present dojang happens to be TKD and it happens to be a McDojang. I haven't seen a good TKD school that matches my TSD dojang technique-wise. I'm sure there is TSD McDojangs, but I personally haven't seen one. The only TKD schools I see in my area (except one that I found the other day) have been McDojangs. But again, that's not ALL TKD schools.
white belt
Brown Belt
Thanks KKid. My biggest frustration is you live a few states away and I really like to help serious students and training partners like you find every drop of their potential. I'm sure you will find it w/o me. I wish I could do that teleport thing in Star Trek and show up in Dobok. I'll probably see a George Dillman Ad in Black Belt magazine teaching Chi powered teleportation now. He will probably have Spock ears on. ARRRGGHHHH! I HATE SLOP CHOPPY FLIP KICKY MCDOJANG!!!! I mean ALL types. Oh, hey, beer time!
Happy New Year!
white belt
Happy New Year!
white belt
karatekid1975
Master Black Belt
White belt,
I agree with you. I hate McDojangs. And I wish you could teleport your school to me. I would love it. I am a serious student of the martial arts. That's the problem. This McDojang isn't. The BIG problem is, I did find a real TKD dojang, but I'm stuck in a contract with the McDojang. I'm "stuck between a rock and a hard place", so to speak. If I could find out how to get out of the contract, I would go to this real TKD dojang in a flash.
Oh, peace. *raises her drink*. Happy New Years. This is the time to make peace, man. My New Years thing is to go to a real Dojang. It doesn't matter if it's TKD or TSD. I just want real serious training.
Ok, back to the topic, now
I agree with you. I hate McDojangs. And I wish you could teleport your school to me. I would love it. I am a serious student of the martial arts. That's the problem. This McDojang isn't. The BIG problem is, I did find a real TKD dojang, but I'm stuck in a contract with the McDojang. I'm "stuck between a rock and a hard place", so to speak. If I could find out how to get out of the contract, I would go to this real TKD dojang in a flash.
Oh, peace. *raises her drink*. Happy New Years. This is the time to make peace, man. My New Years thing is to go to a real Dojang. It doesn't matter if it's TKD or TSD. I just want real serious training.
Ok, back to the topic, now
white belt
Brown Belt
Ken is right, but they they may still hold you to your financial agreement if they are really annoyed. I have heard of such situations. Check out the legalities if money and credit rating are issues. I know of someone leaving a DoJang because of contagious health conditions that arrived after the health disclosure / agreement was processed. The Instructor was GLAD to let them go, no strings attached. Some good theater makeup, to simulate warts on the feet and ankles, would get everybodys attention.
white belt
white belt
KennethKu
2nd Black Belt
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Haha, you don't need to be theatrical. But WhiteBelt just gave me an idea. Just pretend your back hurt and you can't practice anymore. Have your doctor write a letter stating that you should not be exerting yourself. (Which your doctor will more than happy to write anything that cover his ***) Show it to the instructor, hinting that your cousin who is a lawyer is egging you to sue the dojang. But out of your respect for him, you simply want out of the contract. I bet they will cut you loose in a heart beat. lol
KennethKu
2nd Black Belt
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HA! there is a whole thread on Dillman's No-Touch KO. Have a ball.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=60155#post60155
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=60495#post60495
You are gonna laugh your tears out.
white belt
Brown Belt
That was very nice of you to say, Ken. I struggle with keeping my perspective at times. I have so many people try to bamboozle me it's not funny. It's as difficult to not be a victim business wise as it is self defense wise. So many people, and some very nice ones, have a skewed point of reference from a McDoJang experience. They then must be convinced that it is their experience that was lacking, not that I'm expecting unrealistic things from them when training with me. I'm sure I am not alone. The premise of this thread seems to be evidence of that.
Thanks,
white belt
I struggle with keeping my perspective at times. I have so many people try to bamboozle me it's not funny. It's as difficult to not be a victim business wise as it is self defense wise. So many people, and some very nice ones, have a skewed point of reference from a McDoJang experience. They then must be convinced that it is their experience that was lacking, not that I'm expecting unrealistic things from them when training with me. I'm sure I am not alone. The premise of this thread seems to be evidence of that.Thanks,
white belt
KennethKu
2nd Black Belt
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Originally posted by white belt
That was very nice of you to say, Ken.
Not at all, WhiteBelt. A man who runs an honest operation is an honourable and respectable man. Skills and expertise don't impress me (not b/c I think I am better than others, which I certainly am NOT)as much as sheer decency and integrity in character.
It really takes a lot to keep an open mind and remain objective, in pretty much every aspect of our lives.
Sometimes you may even kid yourself into thinking that you are open minded and unbiased when you are clearly not. I of all people, ought to know this all too well, sadly. :asian:
