Tkd/tsd???

[puunui]

Of course, TaeKwonDo as we are referring to it has only existed for around 60 years. One could argue that there's comparatively not as much tradition to observe.

I would say most martial arts practitioners today are doing arts that are less than 100 years old, which means they are for the most part the product of the 20th century or late 19th century at the oldest.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Depends on what you consider traditional. What do you consider traditional, as opposed to non-traditional? In my opinion, most Taekwondo dojang are still pretty traditional in that the students wear dobok, there is bowing, etc. I would say 99% or more of Taekwondo schools are what I would term traditional. The only non-traditional schools would be ones where no one wears dobok ever, no one bows, there is no belt rank or certification given, and so forth.

You could take it that way, sure. I had sport-focused schools in mind. Should have specified.

I would say most martial arts practitioners today are doing arts that are less than 100 years old, which means they are for the most part the product of the 20th century or late 19th century at the oldest.

I'm not sure but isn't Tang Soo Do much older than that?

 

[Manny]

Ok, now how about the second part of his statement, "if someone wants to do a traditional martial art TSD is the way to go." Do you think Tang Soo Do is a more "traditional martial art", as opposed to Taekwondo, and if so, what makes Tang Soo Do more traditional?

Yes, TSD as long as I see and as long as the members here had writte is focused on self defense and less in sport competition, the TKD I know these days is competition oriented and leave the self defense thing beside or relegated, that's my experience maybe not yours but sometimes I just feel silly to do alot of flashy aerial kicks to the air of the palchaguis and not use them in a more realistic aplications.

The times I teach I try to revert the thing and teach the aspects I like the most of TKD, you already know them, for example yesatarday at the end of the class I teach wrist grabs breaks something we rarely see in a regular class with our sambonim.

Manny

 

[puunui]

Yes, TSD as long as I see and as long as the members here had writte is focused on self defense and less in sport competition, the TKD I know these days is competition oriented and leave the self defense thing beside or relegated, that's my experience maybe not yours but sometimes I just feel silly to do alot of flashy aerial kicks to the air of the palchaguis and not use them in a more realistic aplications.

I don't think that generalization is really true. For example, more and more Taekwondo dojang in my area and across the country are not participating in tournaments. Most Taekwondo dojang, at least the commerical ones, focus mainly on the martial arts aspects, or respect, discipline, etc. I also have Tang Soo Do friends whose schools are very active in the tournament circuit, especially the open point circuit. GM Chuck Norris for example made his name from tournament competition, and as far as I know he is still very tournament oriented.

 

[Manny]

I don't think that generalization is really true. For example, more and more Taekwondo dojang in my area and across the country are not participating in tournaments. Most Taekwondo dojang, at least the commerical ones, focus mainly on the martial arts aspects, or respect, discipline, etc. I also have Tang Soo Do friends whose schools are very active in the tournament circuit, especially the open point circuit. GM Chuck Norris for example made his name from tournament competition, and as far as I know he is still very tournament oriented.

That's the way you percieve things, my way of thinking is oposed. For example my sambonims dojang ocupies most of the class's time practicing kicking drills and poomsae, with very little ho shi sul, the techs sambonim teaches are sport oriented, that's why the class I teach try to be more balanced and put atention to the self defense aproach I like, for sure I teach kicking combos too but it's not the enterily class.

I have no TSD dojang in my city so it's dificult to me compare both martial arts but the majority of TKD dojangs here teach the sport side of TKD leaving almost no room for the self defense thing.

Manny

 

[puunui]

That's the way you percieve things, my way of thinking is oposed. For example my sambonims dojang ocupies most of the class's time practicing kicking drills and poomsae, with very little ho shi sul, the techs sambonim teaches are sport oriented, that's why the class I teach try to be more balanced and put atention to the self defense aproach I like, for sure I teach kicking combos too but it's not the enterily class.

I have no TSD dojang in my city so it's dificult to me compare both martial arts but the majority of TKD dojangs here teach the sport side of TKD leaving almost no room for the self defense thing.
Manny

So you are basically giving your opinion on the comparison of Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do based on no experience with Tang Soo Do and experience with Taekwondo which is limited what goes on in your city.

But over and above that, what makes you think that "traditional" = "self defense", at least within the Tang Soo Do context? GM LEE Won Kuk was not opposed to competition; in fact he encouraged it. For example, we hear the story of Chung Do Kwan GM UHM Woon Kyu being called "sliding side kick god". Well, he gained that nickname when they used to spar, under GM LEE Won Kuk, during class in the 40's.

GM HWANG Kee also encouraged competition or "sport". From what I understand, GM Hwang was one of the early leaders of competition. He was host to the first international tournament in Korea (1957 I believe) and took Moo Duk Kwan members to Japan to compete, in tournaments, in the early 1960's. During the first trip to Japan, they brought back the first four chest protectors, which are now so common in Taekwondo competition. So the "tradition" in Tang Soo Do, was on competition. One step sparring, for example, was not for self defense but for competition. That's why it's called one step sparring, as opposed to one step self defense.

And why do you think that "sport" focused techniques cannot be used for "self defense"?

 

[Manny]

So you are basically giving your opinion on the comparison of Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do based on no experience with Tang Soo Do and experience with Taekwondo which is limited what goes on in your city.

But over and above that, what makes you think that "traditional" = "self defense", at least within the Tang Soo Do context? GM LEE Won Kuk was not opposed to competition; in fact he encouraged it. For example, we hear the story of Chung Do Kwan GM UHM Woon Kyu being called "sliding side kick god". Well, he gained that nickname when they used to spar, under GM LEE Won Kuk, during class in the 40's.

GM HWANG Kee also encouraged competition or "sport". From what I understand, GM Hwang was one of the early leaders of competition. He was host to the first international tournament in Korea (1957 I believe) and took Moo Duk Kwan members to Japan to compete, in tournaments, in the early 1960's. During the first trip to Japan, they brought back the first four chest protectors, which are now so common in Taekwondo competition. So the "tradition" in Tang Soo Do, was on competition. One step sparring, for example, was not for self defense but for competition. That's why it's called one step sparring, as opposed to one step self defense.

And why do you think that "sport" focused techniques cannot be used for "self defense"?

Again you get me wrong!! Offcourse a sport roundhouse to the ribs can be use sucessfully in self defense, offcourse a sport ax kick can be sucessfull in the streets IF the kicker has a very good flexibilty and the correct timing etc and hoping the atacker can't grab the raising leg.

What I am telling since the begining TKD classes in the dojangs I know in my city are focused on WTF/Olimpic sparring competition and almost did not teach or practice self defense techs.

Let me tell you again, for example in the Kenpo Karate dojo where I used to crosstrain I practiced evrysingle class self defense techs, I was exposed to a total of 58 diferent self defese techs agains punches, kicks,grabs,chokes, etc,etc AND right now I can`t remember the last class I did or learn self defense techs (Ho Shi Sul) with my TKD sambonim.

Yes, in the kenpo dojo I did sparring but it wasn't the most critical part of the class, infact some guys of the kenpo dojo compite in NBL circuit.

In a full year of kenpo classes I learned 58 diferent self defense techs and when we do ho shi sul in dojang we barely see 3-4 techs.

What Am I doing? well the class I teach I try to cover more self defense and even I am incorporating kenpo techs in the TKD I am teaching, my class is not a kidie class but men class that are not so much intereted in competing at tournaments.

The way I see TKD is something more than just kicking/kicking drills/kicking combos.

Manny

 

[puunui]

Again you get me wrong!!

No, I understand exactly what you are trying to say.

What I am telling since the begining TKD classes in the dojangs I know in my city are focused on WTF/Olimpic sparring competition and almost did not teach or practice self defense techs.

And then you said that Tang Soo Do was more "traditional" and more self defense oriented. I responded by saying that was not true that Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do are competition oriented. Here is a quote from GM KIM Soo about his experiences with the Moo Duk Kwan: "Back in Korea when I visited the Mooduk-Kwan down by the railroad station they were always sparring. I never saw them practicing Jang Kwon or any forms."

http://www.arlingtonkarate.com/articles/KoreanMAtruth.pdf

Let me tell you again, for example in the Kenpo Karate dojo where I used to crosstrain I practiced evrysingle class self defense techs, I was exposed to a total of 58 diferent self defese techs agains punches, kicks,grabs,chokes, etc,etc AND right now I can`t remember the last class I did or learn self defense techs (Ho Shi Sul) with my TKD sambonim.

What does Kenpo Karate have to do with your original premise, which was that Taekwondo was sport oriented and Tang Soo Do was more traditional and therefore self defense oriented?

 

[miguksaram]

You could take it that way, sure. I had sport-focused schools in mind. Should have specified.

Even in sport there is still tradition that is adhered to. What tradition do you feel is not being met in "sport" oriented schools that is being met in "non-sport" oriented schools?

I'm not sure but isn't Tang Soo Do much older than that?

No. It was developed by Hwang Ki in the Early 20th century.

 

[miguksaram]

Let me tell you again, for example in the Kenpo Karate dojo where I used to crosstrain I practiced evrysingle class self defense techs, I was exposed to a total of 58 diferent self defese techs agains punches, kicks,grabs,chokes, etc,etc AND right now I can`t remember the last class I did or learn self defense techs (Ho Shi Sul) with my TKD sambonim.

I would say that is an issue with your sabu not with TKD. GM Park, Kyoung-ho, my TKD instructor, was very self-defense oriented. We did that way more than sparring. My Tangsoodo school that I went to was more sport oriented. We were always gearing up for the next tournament.

 

[RobinTKD]

I have to agree with puunui in this instance, although our school is ITF TKD, we have no emphasis on competition (although there is a BIG ITF sparring circuit in Britain), and all what we study could be considered as traditional as say Kendo, Shotokan, Wing Chun and various other forms of 'ancient' martial arts. I also see a difference in the TKD I study and the TSD my sister studied for most her childhood and teenage years. Both are traditional, and mostly those traditions seem very similar, the techs on the other hand do not.