- Jul 9, 2008
- Reaction score
- Covington, WA
And this would matter why?Americans doing it is definitely cringy. But what about some white dudes on the all blacks in new Zealand doing it?
Got it. That is cringy. But what do you think about the white dudes on the All Blacks doing a haka as part of that team? Less cringy? Not cringy?Americans doing a Mouri war chant?
Which is a big deal still in new Zealand.
By the way how intimidating would that gym be?
As a consideration, it may be hard for someone like me to understand the Shinto traditions baked into Sumo. Maybe more accurate to say that fully understanding the cultural significance of them is difficult. Intellectually, it's not too esoteric. But what about people who have been fully immersed in the lifestyle for 2/3rds of their life, starting in adolescence? Are you saying they wouldn't understand?This is a difficult subject to rationally discuss the pros and cons, as it is related to cultural chauvinism, an emotionally charged issue. I am of conflicted opinion. The video above is similar to the South Pacific Islander ritual war dance, meant to intimidate the opponent with a show of unity and strength and perhaps avoiding actual physical combat. Similar displays are seen throughout the animal world to avoid intraspecies violence. Some of the ritual in sumo is based on this, much on religious (Shinto, a very Japanese) tradition. Hard for outsiders to identify with Shinto.
While other cultures may appropriate these kind of rituals on a physical level, chances are they are not a part of their cultural soul and do not have the personal meaning they have to the native culture. Imagine your country's national flag taken over by another country and used there for some mundane purpose. If you're British, how would you feel about the Palace Guards bear fur hats adopted by McDonald's as part of their uniform? Maybe some wouldn't care, but others would feel an insult.
How would an Apache or Navajo feel if a person of European descent joined in one of their cultural spirit dances? I think there would need to be a process before they felt comfortable with it. Personally, I have respect for most cultural traditions.
It is practically impossible for a non-Japanese to be accepted as Japanese (legally and socially) even if born there. It is very insular. Never colonized, little immigration, homogenous language and race, and a very long history of social norms and traditions, it is a very protective country. One can argue this is a source of national pride and strength of their culture (with many admirable qualities, IMO), and can perhaps said to be racist as well (though I think the racism is based on anybody being non-Japanese, rather than just color) It is much different than the USA which was built from a number of immigrant origins and customs. This too, is a source of strength, as well as a source of problems.
After these considerations, I am still of mixed feelings on the general subject. Regarding sumo, specifically, I think if outsiders are skillful and fully respect the traditions of the sport (which is, or at least, used to be seen as more than mere sport to the Japanese) they should be allowed to compete and be treated on an equal basis within the sumo world. They should not expect to be easily or quickly considered "family" however. Such is the reality.
Americans doing it is definitely cringy. But what about some white dudes on the all blacks in new Zealand doing it?
Not at all. If fully immersed for such a time and having an open and accepting mind, embracing the culture, understanding should come. Thru understanding, appreciation will follow. It may, unfortunately, be harder for others to accept them.But what about people who have been fully immersed in the lifestyle for 2/3rds of their life, starting in adolescence? Are you saying they wouldn't understand?
I think it would be the opposite, unless the provision stated in the first quote is held to. Often, other cultures arrive and try to impose their values and customs on the new country, rather than adopt and cherish the culture of their new home. This last part does not, and should not, require them to abandon their native culture and traditions.Is Sumo risking losing its cultural identity by trying too hard to keep it ethnically pure?
A naturalized citizen cannot become President of the United States by law. Business is a different story, In this specific case, a naturalized citizen, I think, should have the same opportunities as a native born citizen. Whether or not others will support the business or person in the enterprise is another story.prohibit a foreign born, naturalized citizen like Hakuho from managing a stable and coaching
For me personally you have to separate the two. Racism and nationalism are not joined at the hip.There is also the fact that half the 'white dudes' being referred to have Maori ancestry. Skin colour, funnily enough does not always reflect 'race'. Hmm. Maybe something to learn from that?
I love Japan, but couching this topic as anything other than racist is absurd. Racism and nationalism are a real issue there. That's why they have black vans full of political 'activists' driving around blasting offensive rhetoric in the streets.
No. America has been a melting pot from the very beginning. You could never make such a division here nor would it be considered nowadays. Yes, there was segregation in sports for a time (way back) but that was short lived as cooler minds prevailed.Would it have made sense to you to preclude all but white american people from playing baseball still?
Well, I mean, that’s how it was in the MLB until 1947. I think we can all agree now that having a negro league, and keeping the MLB white was very racist. And to the point of this thread, very bad for the sport.Would it have made sense to you to preclude all but white american people from playing baseball still?
No. America has been a melting pot from the very beginning. You could never make such a division here nor would it be considered nowadays. Yes, there was segregation in sports for a time (way back) but that was short lived as cooler minds prevailed.
As I understand it, that is not the issue in Sumo.
Well, I mean, that’s how it was in the MLB until 1947. I think we can all agree now that having a negro league, and keeping the MLB white was very racist. And to the point of this thread, very bad for the sport.
Just to be clear, are you asking if we should go back to that? Hopefully, even the most overt racists would be shamed into saying no,
You are going to have to expand on that one.What's the distinction between a 'melting pot', and a country with a slightly less diverse ethnic makeup?
How is that not the issue in sumo? The governing body has always restricted sumo camps to a single 'foreigner'. And the point of this thread is that they have also refused to allow a 'foreigner' to open his own camp.
No, I'm not asking whether we should go back to that. I'm using that historical event to highlight the overtly racist and outdated practices employed in Japan. They are virtually analogous. I'm frankly amazed by dvcochran's defense of nationalism and apparent ignorance of the connections between nationalism, racism and the outcomes seen in both MLB a century ago, and sumo now. I raised a hopefully more familiar scenario to illuminate my point.
Like I said previously, I do not know enough about the specifics of the Sumo issue to speak to it in detail. But that was not your question.Why do I have to expand? Can you answer my questions before asking your own?
What is the distinction between what is happening in sumo in Japan, and what happened in MLB in the US?
I don't know why you'd be offended. I didn't 'blur' it with racism, I pointed out that the two are historically and culturally intrinsically linked. I don't know quite how you're disagreeing with that; perhaps you could explain?